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Quote# 138933

THE FRIGHTENING IMPLICATIONS OF THE TEN BASIC BELIEFS OF UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION

Christians who believe in Jesus Christ and adhere to the teachings of the Bible have great cause of concern should the claims of universal reconciliation (UR) succeed. Here are 10 of the leading teachings of UR followed immediately by the serious and surprising implications.

Teaching #1: Love is the supreme attribute of God. His other attributes (holiness, justice, righteousness) are limited by his love. “God cannot act apart from love” (The Shack, 102). “Mercy triumphs over judgement because of love” (TS, 164).

Implications: (1) Out of logical necessity, God ceases to be God. For God to be God means that he is perfect in all his attributes. No one attribute is greater than another. If this is not the case, then some attributes would be imperfect, incomplete, and some standard outside of God would be the measure of God—and this is impossible. Thus by affirming that love is the supreme attribute of God UR has created a defective deity. God ceases to be God. (2) Humans have no standard by which to set the appropriate judgment and punishment for crimes. (3) Ultimately Jesus’ death on the cross is unnecessary. Jesus did not need to die for sins because God would have loved people enough to take them to heaven and his justice did not need to be fully satisfied. (4) Ultimately the incarnation of Jesus was unnecessary, because love as the supreme attribute would have brought all to God apart from the justice demanded by an eternal death for sin. (5) Sin is not so bad after all. (6) The Bible is untrustworthy, for it never limits any of God's attributes or exalts one over another.
Note: This is probably the most central and far-reaching claim of UR; and it is the most heretical. (2) Many of these implications apply to other teachings below.

Teaching #2: God has already reconciled all people to himself by Jesus’ death on the cross. He has already removed the hostility between himself and people (TS, 192, 222).
Implication: (1) If reconciliation is already true for all, then there is no need to preach the gospel about Jesus Christ. (2) There is no need for people to believe in order to appropriate reconciliation. They already possess it.

Teaching #3: People either repent and believe the gospel before they die, or those who go to hell after dying will repent and believe the gospel, and then go to heaven. All go to heaven. Those people in hell change their destiny.

Implications: (1) There is no need to preach the gospel; no need to be engaged in missions or outreach. (2) The Bible is incomplete and untrustworthy here for it nowhere states that anyone can change his destiny after dying. (3) The entire record of church history is filled with the misplaced emphasis on trying to reach the world with the good news. (4) Jesus is untrustworthy for he commanded his people to go to the whole world and preach the gospel (Matt 28:19-20). He taught that there are two destinies, one leading to life, the other leading to destruction (Matt 7:13-14).

Teaching #4: God does not punish sin. He seeks to cure it. Sin is its own punishment (TS, 120).

Implication: (1) There is no future judgment after death when all stand before God as Judge to receive punishment for their sins (2 Cor 10. (2) The Biblical account of judgments on individuals and nations (Adam and Eve, Cain, the generation of the Flood, the Tower of Babel, the people of Canaan, Israel and Judah because of idolatry, on Jesus at the cross) are not trustworthy.

Teaching #5: At the finality of all things the fallen angels and the Devil himself will all repent and go to heaven—and hell is no more.

Implications: (1) The sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross was/is unnecessary. There is another way to get to heaven, since the death of Jesus on the cross did not concern the sin of angels. (2) Heaven is unsafe because Satan could rebel against God in the distant future. With his past experience he could believe that his future rebellion would be more successful. (3) A future rebellion of Satan could be repeated ad infinitum, but this is impossible. (4) Jesus work on the cross to provide forgiveness for all people was not final. (5) If there is no hell there is no heaven; there is no need for heaven.

Teaching #6: Since Jesus between his death and resurrection went to hell to proclaim salvation to those there, then he could go a thousand times more to deliver others who have gone there since.

Implications: (1) It is not a convincing interpretation of certain texts that Jesus ever did this (see Eph. 4:8-10; 1 Pet. 3:18-20; 4:6). (2) Even if this happened then, there are no words from Jesus or from the Apostles that say that he will do this again.

Teaching #7: Hell is not as we have believed it. Hell is not a place of God’s everlasting punishment but of purging, correcting, reproving people so that given enough time all depart Hell (TS, 162-164).

Implications: (1) If there is no hell there is no heaven, for in the end heaven and hell are indistinguishable. (2) Jesus is untrustworthy because he warned of “everlasting torment” (Matt 25:41). (3) Then we humans have no standard by which to exert penalties and punishment for crimes done on earth.

Teaching #8: There is no place left in the universe where God’s love has not conquered all. He is totally victorious. None are left in rebellion against God. All are brought into submission by love.

Implications: (1) Then the will of some to refuse to believe the gospel is voided. (2) Then God did not will to create humanity with a will to be able to choose not to believe.

Teaching #9: The institutions of marriage, the church, and the government are the “man-created, trinity of terrors that ravages the earth and deceives those I care about. . . . It’s all false” and part of “a diabolical scheme” (TS, 122-124; 179).

Implications: (1) Then the devil is in control. (2) Jesus is untrustworthy, since he said that he would build his church (Matt 16). The Bible says that Jesus is head of the church (Eph 2:19-22; 3:6-11; 4:14-16; 5:23), that he loves the church and died for it (Eph 5:25). (3) The Bible is untrustworthy since it describes God as forming marriage (Gen 2; Eph 5:25-33) and instituting government (Rom 13:1-6). (4) Then there are no duly constituted authorities delegated by God. (5) Thus all acts of anarchy and terrorism are justified. (6) All forms of marriage and non-marriage are equally legitimate; no form is better than any other (including LGBTQ forms). (7) Divorce for any reason is legitimate. (8) Adultery and prostitution are as legitimate as marriage. (9) The family structure has no value. (10) Church structures with elders, deacons, bishops, a constitution or faith statement are all Satanic and wrong. (11) Christian gatherings are demonic.

Teaching #10: People are in a “circle of relationship” with God that is pure, having no authority and no subordination to God (TS, 122-124).

Implications: (1) Then Jesus’ commandments to obey him and to love others (as in John 14 16) are to be disobeyed; and P Young is to be obeyed. (2) The church should not submit to Jesus (contra Eph 5:24). (3) Jesus’ claim to have “all authority in heaven and earth” is false (Matt 28:19). (4) Jesus is not to be acknowledged as Lord, King, Head of the church, Prince of peace, the Mighty God, the everlasting Father, Savior, Master, etc. (4) Then believers should not “submit to one another out of reverence for Christ” (contra Eph 5:21). (5) All relationships will fail, since it is impossible to sustain “pure relationships” without structure and in a manner that benefits everyone.

In light of the preceding it is clear that UR can never succeed. It corresponds to no reality. It represents a man-centered theology. It has been tried many times before (the Garden of Eden for one place) and has always failed. But there is the constant need for vigilance to refute it, as Paul and the other Apostles instruct us (Eph. 2:1-2; 6:10-18), to be aware of false prophets and teachers as both Jesus (Matt. 7:13) and the Apostles warn (2 Cor. 11).

James De Young, Eric Barger Ministries 7 Comments [7/17/2018 6:30:14 AM]
Fundie Index: 2
Submitted By: CC

Quote# 138936

~The Shack From Hell
The Shack is a movie that pretends to be a Christian film but it is NOT! It is a 100% in-Biblical move. It is a cult and an a heresy. It is part of the Grace Cult. It is New Age religion. The Shack is anti-Christ. The Shack portrays God as a woman, God the Mother. Jesus taught the prayer, "Our Father who art in Heaven." Not, "Our Mother who art in Heaven." Jesus called God "Father" 165 times. Jesus said, "Abba Father,' he said, 'everything is possible for you." [Mark 14:36]. Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of Heaven and earth. " [Mt.11:25]. "How much more will your Father in Heaven give good gifts to those who ask him." [Matt. 7:11]. Jesus said, "I am ascending to my Father and your Father." [John 20:17].In the New Testament letters God is called "Father" 40 times. "There is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist." [1 Cor.8:6]. "I kneel before the Father, from whom every family in Heaven and on earth derives its name." [Eph.3:14]."Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ." [1 Cor.1:3].

The Shack shows God the Father as an African woman who suffered Christ’s crucifixion. This is an ancient heresy that teaches that God the Father suffered on the cross. The Shack falsely teaches that Jesus is the best way to know God, not the only way. The Shack teaches universalism, that is, that all people will be saved. In the movie “Papa” chides a person that he is now reconciled to the whole world. The person retorts, “The whole world? You mean those who believe in you, right?” “Papa” responds, “The whole world.” The Shack's Jesus says, "Those who love me come from every system that exists. They were Buddhists or Mormons, Baptists or Muslims. I have no desire to make them Christian, but I do want to join them in their transformation into sons and daughters of my Papa, into my brothers and sisters.” The Shack God says, "In Jesus, I have forgiven all humans for their sins against me."

The Shack sees God’s nature as “too loving” to let anyone who has refused to seek salvation suffer the eternal consequences of sin. The Shack says, "Holiness has nothing to do with sin." And, "I don't need to punish sin." The Word of God says when the Lord Jesus is revealed from Heaven in blazing fire, "He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction " [2 Thess. 1:7-9].

In the Shack God's holiness is perverted. God's judgment and holiness are considered to be in conflict with his love. The Shack says judgment makes God "grossly unjust." The Shack teaches no responsibility and no accountability. It says, "You won't find the word responsibility in the Scriptures." God the Father in the Shack says, "Honey, I've never placed an expectation on you or anyone else." This is a blasphemous lie. God's Word says, "Repent and change." [Mt.4:17]. God's Word says, "Without holiness no one will see the Lord." [Heb.12:14]. God's Word says, "Faith without action is dead." [Jms.2:26]. God's Word say, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation." [Mk.16:15].

God's Word says feed the hungry, cloth the naked, visit prisoners, invite strangers into your home, help the sick. [Mt.25:41-46]. The Shack teaches that God is a friend, not Lord. It teaches that he is a "Buddy," but not a God to be served. The Shack teaches the Grace Cult. That God does everything and people do nothing. It teaches that God's grace forgives us no matter what. The Word says, "If we willfully keep on sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of Judgment and burning fire which will consume the enemies of God...How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who have treated as unholy the blood of the Covenant and who has insulted the Spirit of Grace?

'Vengeance is mine, I will repay,' and, 'The Lord will judge his people.' It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” [Heb.10:26-31]. If people willfully keep on sinning after they have received the truth there is NO SACRIFICE FOR THEIR SINS LEFT! The goal of the Shack is not reaching multitudes of Lost souls in world but feeling wholeness about oneself. The Shack does not promote stopping mass millions of souls from going to an eternal Hell, but it teaches people to feel good about themselves. The Shack wants everyone to be happy and comfortable. Jesus Christ says, "Because you are lukewarm, neither hot nor cold, I am about to VOMIT YOU OUT OF MY MOUTH!" [Rev.3:16].

The Shack wants everyone to say, "I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing." [Rev. 3:17]. But Jesus says, "You do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked...BE ZEALOUS HOT AS THE GLOW OF SOLIDS AND BOIL OF LIQUIDS AND REPENT AND CHANGE!" [Rev.3:17-19].

DaneMuhlig, Youtube 6 Comments [7/17/2018 6:30:33 AM]
Fundie Index: 1
Submitted By: CC

Quote# 45818

first thing this morning (not awake) i read, "Obama names Biden as running mate".........and Osama Bin Laden comes immediately to mind..

MovinOnUp, RaptureReady 37 Comments [8/24/2008 10:10:20 PM]
Fundie Index: 6

Quote# 1461

Besides no one really takes Darwin’s ideas seriously any longer – except those who still depend on those school science text books which haven’t been up dated in soooo long, Darwin might have been on some of their advisory boards.

romah, Christian Website Talk! 13 Comments [11/1/2002 12:00:00 AM]
Fundie Index: 7

Quote# 138931

Warning To Pastors Re. Young’s Universalism

By Dr. James De Young, senior professor, Western Seminary, Portland, Or.

Recently I read a posting by a Southern Baptist leader from Oklahoma, Rev. Wade Burleson, who endorses Paul Young’s newest book, Lies We Believe about God. Burleson claims that Paul Young, the author of The Shack, expresses just another, optional viewpoint about the atonement. He cited Al Mohler and Paul Young as both believing in the atonement but differing only on the issue of its extent. Mohler, following Calvin, believes that the atonement, the sacrifice of Christ for sin on the cross, was limited to providing atonement for believers only. Young believes it is for all human beings. At least this is how Paul Young has explained it to pastor Burleson.

Recently, John MacMurray, a supporter of Paul Young (note that he is named on the last page of the book, Lies), argued similarly and criticizes those who fault Young’s theology.

Now my discussion is not just about what Burleson believes. For I suspect that many pastors are in the same position that Burleson is. They are influenced by their personal experience with Paul Young and give him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to understanding his theology. They fail to ask the right questions. But with his most recent publication Young has erased all doubt as to what he believes and how far apart he and Mohler truly are. For Burleson and other pastors to fail to recall their evangelical theology and church history is an inexcusable failure. They are uninformed how universal reconciliation has brought havoc to the church.

Paul Young’s History and Mine

Many pastors are being misled. I’ve known Paul Young probably far longer than most of them. Paul and I go back at least two decades. And in this time Paul has twisted the truth to accommodate his reputation as a “Christian” writer. Here is a summary of events. He renounced his “evangelical paradigm” and converted to universal reconciliation (UR) (in a 103-page forum paper in 2004); reaffirmed his new belief to me and my wife in a church foyer (probably in 2006 or so); wrote for his kids The Shack, which was full of universalism (about 2006); with two pastor friends took a year to remove the UR (2006-2007?); in my home before many witnesses said that he no longer believed UR (in 2007); published The Shack; then has written two more novels with UR as an undercurrent throughout (Crossroads, 2012; Eve, 2015). See my reviews and other articles at burningdowntheshackbook.com.

During all this time, I’ve tried to warn Christians about the subtle propagation of UR that exists in his novels and now in the movie. I wrote my book, Burning Down the Shack, to clarify both what universalism is all about and how it has deceived many in the church and to show how it is embedded chapter by chapter in Paul’s novel. Many people have neglected my warnings or downplayed them. Again my web site clarifies the heretical points of this universalism.

Now Paul’s latest release confirms all my warnings. In Lies We Believe about God, Young deliberately takes on 28 statements that we Christians affirm and he dismisses them all as lies. He openly confesses allegiance to “universal reconciliation,” that all people are already saved (p. 118). It is no longer a “hope.” He writes this under the “lie” stated as “You need to get saved” (chap. 13).

So I say to Pastor Burleson and others like him: the argument is not just about the extent of the atonement. It is a question about whether there was an atonement at all! Young does not believe that Jesus Christ took sinners’ place to make an atonement for their sins on the cross—to provide propitiation. Young explicitly rejects penal substitution. If you don’t believe me, ask him. Yes, Jesus died there. But it was not a place of judgment. Paul expands on this under a couple of other “lies”: “The Cross was God’s idea” (ch. 17; rather, Paul says that it was man’s idea); “God requires child sacrifice” (ch. 19; here Young denies that the death of God’s son was necessary to pay the penalty that God’s justice required); “Hell is separation from God” (ch. 15; no, God is in hell, and he uses “fiery love” to bring all people to himself from there); “Sin separates us from God” (ch. 27; no, nothing including sin can ever separate any human being, whether a believer or not, from God; no one has ever been separated from God; all are “in God”); “Not everyone is a child of God” (ch. 24; no, all human beings are children of God: all were in Christ in his death and resurrection, and because Christ is in God, then all are in God); and “God is One alone” (ch. 28; here Young rejects his understanding of the Trinity as derived from his “evangelical Christian fundamentalism”).

When Are Enough Lies Enough?

So now I speak more directly. Pastor Burleson, and others, do you not see how these attacks on what we Christians “lie” about go to the very heart of the Gospel of the NT? Do you not see that there is no gospel or good news for you to preach, of how God judged our sins on the cross (Rom. 3:23-26), if you embrace these corrections of the “lies” that Christians make? Do you still think that this is simply a matter of the extent of the atonement? Do you preach that all people are equally children of God? How many more “lies” would Paul Young have to attack before you have finally had enough? How can you be a faithful shepherd of your flock if you deceive them with Young’s teaching or downplay it the way you do? Note the Apostle Paul’s words about distorting the gospel in 2 Cor. 2:17 and 4:2ff.

Some Final Concerns

A couple other things you should note. First, you need to recall some history. UR has been a heresy propagated by heretics from the third century on, beginning with Origen. It was condemned as heresy in the 5th and 6th centuries. It declined. Then with the freedom of inquiry that the Reformers promoted it found new life. It came to Colonial America in 1740 in the person of John Murray and became so popular that one out of every five Baptist ministers, it is said, converted to it. But God raised up other Baptists, such as Isaac Backus, to begin exposing it. It went into decline from 1850 or so for a hundred years. Now it is experiencing a resurgence again, through the writings of Young, McLaren, Talbott, and Bell, and others, and their apologists. I’ve written an entire book refuting UR.

Finally, one more thing you should note from my history with Paul Young. In 2007 he said before many witnesses including my pastor that he had given up his universalism but refused to tell us what he did believe. Now, with the book, Lies, he confesses (p. 118) that he has believed UR all along.

Does this account not reveal deceit? Does this not identify the author of Lies as a liar himself? Should this affect our understanding of his character?

These are heart-wrenching questions. But as a pastor you need to clarify where you stand—with Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior as revealed in the Bible or with Paul Young? It is the truth vs. Lies.

The Lord Jesus will keep building his church, in spite of The Shack. But it may be without you.

Some of you say that you “hope” or wish that universalism is true. To hope for something that God has never said, and contradicts what God says, makes one a friend of Satan and an enemy of Christ.

And don’t ever align Paul Young with C.S. Lewis!

James De Young, Burning Down the Shack 3 Comments [7/17/2018 6:30:07 AM]
Fundie Index: 2
Submitted By: CC

Quote# 45749

[After another member claims to be a Christian teen]

What kind of "Christian" answers can a "teen" possibly answer? And what kind of language is "pissed off" for a Christian? You are in way over your head on this site dear mis-guided young one.

Signed,

55-year-old REAL Christian, as opposed to one in self-proclaimed "name" only.

Now come back with a Biblical answer so I can blow you out of the water and reveal you for the fraud you really are.

Beroiaios, Yahoo! Answers 38 Comments [8/24/2008 1:19:08 PM]
Fundie Index: 9
Submitted By: doomie 22

Quote# 45752

(Obama said China's infrastructure is better than ours. Which of course translated means "OBAMA LOVES COMMUNISM")

Hussein just loves bashing America. And he has the gall to praise China, who is the biggest human rights violator on the planet?

Perhaps he would like the U.S. to raise to the standards of a communist country?

We don't need this anti-American as our president.

We would never be able to recuperate.

mercyandgrace, RaptureReady 39 Comments [8/24/2008 1:20:01 PM]
Fundie Index: 5
Submitted By: Smith

Quote# 138945

All humanity is evil.

The only cure/ proper redemption for creativity and propriety in our universe long lost from OUR nature... is their enslavement, and complete submission.

Eugeniker, Sluthate 3 Comments [7/17/2018 8:43:29 AM]
Fundie Index: 4
Submitted By: Pharaoh Bastethotep

Quote# 45728

Am I wrong? Some Christians say so?
I am sure you all know of the plane that crashed in Spain earlier this week. But while many of you may be upset, I am not. Spain began allowing homosexual marriage in July of 2005. They spit in the face of God. And now God has finally enacted retribution on them. If you are a true Christian will be rejoicing in God's righteous judgments.
The Bible says:

"I will praise thee with uprightness of heart, when I shall have learned thy righteous judgments" (Psalm 119:7)

"At midnight I will rise to give thanks unto thee because of thy righteous judgments" (Psalm 119:62)

The moment I heard of this I bowed my head, got on one knee and prayed with thanks. I thanked God for his righteous judgments upon the earth.

If you are a real Christian you know that these words are true and that we are in the end of days.

Are you a real Christian? I know I am.

AEA, Yahoo Answers 47 Comments [8/24/2008 7:55:47 PM]
Fundie Index: 2
Submitted By: Lola Flores

Quote# 138942

You are absolutely correct that Justice demands the punishment fits the crime. In human terms, that's why there are human laws that deal with the crimes of man. However, human punishment has no bearing on the soul of the individual. Human justice cannot punish the soul, only the body. Therefore, human justice is incomplete.
The reason eternal torment is necessary is for the soul. When we sin, not only is it usually a mental and/or physical act of defiance towards God. It is also a spiritual act of defiance towards God. It's "I don't need you to tell me how to live my life, my soul is fine on my own". That's the sin Adam & Eve committed against God in the Garden and why the spiritually died that day. At the end of life, the soul lives on and it would seem that as it was in physical life, it is in physical death. If it accepted Christ's gift of salvation, then it is spiritually reborn and lives forever, glorifying Christ. If it did not accept Christ's gift of salvation, then it is spiritually dead and forever curses Christ.

Bryan, Stream 7 Comments [7/17/2018 8:42:26 AM]
Fundie Index: 2
Submitted By: CC

Quote# 45745

Question [which was stolen from Epicurus]:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able, and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God.

[The fundy answer]

No, he allows evil and he is capable to do anything. Judgement day will come.

strats!!, Yahoo!Answers 35 Comments [8/24/2008 8:06:38 PM]
Fundie Index: 5
Submitted By: Malkavian Jeff

Quote# 45732

Are Atheists guilty of intellectual obscurantism and obfuscation?

Any idiot can say they don't believe in God, or in anything for that matter.

Any idiot can retort "where's the evidence, I haven't see it" ,rather than look for it.

Yet, this is the very attitude that the Atheists have. They simply wallow in the filth of their own ignorance and disdain.

Isn't it time we declared them to be GUILTY of crimes against the intellect and passed sentence on them?

And who better to be God's executioner and rod than myself, Pastor Winthrop?

Pastor Winthrop III, Yahoo Answers 54 Comments [8/24/2008 8:11:54 PM]
Fundie Index: 6
Submitted By: Lola Flores

Quote# 45787

Darwinism was disproved long ago. It should not be taught in the educational curriculum what so ever. I personally am going to enroll my daughter in Christian school as soon as possible, because I do not want her to be exposed to secular world philosophies.

jaslynne, Myspace 32 Comments [8/24/2008 9:22:28 PM]
Fundie Index: 7
Submitted By: Thejebusfire

Quote# 45721

To all who do not believe in Jesus, why do you want to go to hell?

Jesus freak, Yahoo Answers 55 Comments [8/24/2008 9:29:40 PM]
Fundie Index: 5
Submitted By: J Arcenas

Quote# 45734

athiests are sooooo stupid and incompentant. how/why can they be trusted with kids? my papa hated god. he was an asshole and left my mama when she was sick. she died and he never came back for us. i lived with some relatives i didnt know. how fucked up is gthat? if he read the BIBLE and got to know god he wouldnt have fucked up so bad. see? that is proof! the BIBLE will never fail you.

Tim Cosgrove, Stupid Athiests Blog 57 Comments [8/24/2008 9:29:41 PM]
Fundie Index: 12
Submitted By: Mrs.Beez

Quote# 45774

[There's making stuff up and then there's making stupid stuff up. The entire thread is disturbing....they really believe there was no rain before The Great Flood.]

The people of Noah's day had never even seen rain, so the idea of a flood was completely foreign to them. But Noah was known as a good man, and what's sad is that no one listened to him, though he was known for his goodness and wisdom.

He really did try to warn them, too, but for them to acknowledge he might be right, they would have had to make a change in their lifestyle of working for immediate and pleasureable rewards, such as money and material goods and possibly even pick up a hammer and work hard on something where the end benefit was not immediately apparant. In the end they just continued doing what they were comfortable with.

I believe in the story of the ark as 100 percent true, yet is also a startling parable for today's times.

ZeldaCA, Rapture Ready 15 Comments [8/24/2008 9:30:50 PM]
Fundie Index: 8
Submitted By: Democritus

Quote# 45793

Dinosaur bones are found buried in rock layers laid down by water all over the earth. It's obvious to me they were deposited there by the great flood.

Pilgrim, Yahoo Answers Religion and Spirituality 32 Comments [8/24/2008 9:31:46 PM]
Fundie Index: 1
Submitted By: Gorgeoustxwoman

Quote# 45803

[this guy should be fired, stat!... wtf!]

Dr. Paul C. Vitz, professor of psychology at New York University and a former atheist, is the author of Faith of the Fatherless. In this thought-provoking book, Vitz diagnoses the root causes of atheism and agnosticism. In studying the biographies of many of the leading atheists of the past three centuries, Vitz concludes that virtually all had an absent, distant, harassed or abusive father early in their childhood — often before 18 months of age.

Dr. Paul Vitz, James Dobson's: focus on the family website. 61 Comments [8/24/2008 9:37:41 PM]
Fundie Index: 9
Submitted By: senorchipotle

Quote# 138911

Gaymaxx theory

Gay people have the most sex.
If average male has 2-3 sex partners
The gay counterpart has about 70
Just go on March naked and fondle some cute guys balls.
Insant lay, also you will get some nice attention

Ubercel, incels.me 13 Comments [7/16/2018 7:38:37 AM]
Fundie Index: 2
Submitted By: Pharaoh Bastethotep

Quote# 138832

Something very significant that happened just now.

Very recently I was in my room and all of a sudden the door opened by itself. Out of the door emerged someone who looked exactly like me, holding a crucifix. He performed a Holy spell causing my soul to escape my body and enter his causing our consciousnesses to merge into one and have memories of both selves. It turns out that he is me from a parralel universe where Charles John Montague Manners became King of England, France, and as a result of him defeating the EU during the warfare, he also became Holy Roman Emperor.

I took my former body through the portal, entering a castle. There were guards who said that they will take care of the body and took the body away. The guard also told me to go back to this universe..

I came back to this universe and the portal closed.

In the parralel universe, Charles Manners was successful until his friend was seduced into having romantic extramarital sex which caused events which led to the Sword of Excalibur to be destroyed which caused England to be supernaturally cursed with a plague that wiped out England’s entire population.

I will be making animated YouTube videos documenting events in the parralel universe to promote the legitimacy cause for this universe since it failed in the other. The moral of the story is that you should not have extra marital sex.

Jacob Harrison, FSTDT Forums 61 Comments [7/13/2018 5:26:01 AM]
Fundie Index: 6
Submitted By: Pharaoh Bastethotep

Quote# 45727

For anyone who is Christian or has a close relationship with God...please help.?

how do you deal with athiest people?...i mean i dont argue them and i respect their view points but i just want to lead them in the right way if you know what i mean...it hurts me to see people who are athiest...any suggestions to "how to guid them in the right direction?"...like idk what to say when their like "i dont get how people can belive that God came out of no where, but the universe cant?"...I tell them...God didnt just come out of nowhere, hes always exsisted..but they dont listen...they all seem to be so close-minded!...but i guess just talking to them about it plants a seed? right?...and thats the first step, isnt it?.....what are some good ways to plants seeds you guys??? and to maybe convince a nonbeliver to belive?

Casey F, Yahoo Answers 35 Comments [8/24/2008 10:10:08 PM]
Fundie Index: 0
Submitted By: Lola Flores

Quote# 138934

Entropy is always increasing. A fully disordered society is illustrated by wild animals and primitive peoples such as the Tasmanian aboriginals, where all other creatures except for close kin are enemies, obstacles or sources of raw materials – Hobbes state of war. So if you look back in history, you can always see entropic processes, bringing us back towards that condition.

So, how come ordered societies exist, how come surviving and prosperous societies are generally at least somewhat orderly?

You cannot make something clean without making something else dirty, but you can make any amount of stuff dirty without making anything clean. Order for the ingroup always comes at the expense of someone else: Thus, for example, chastity and monogamy requires men hitting badly behaved women with a stick. (Dalrock banned me for pointing this out.) Thus, for example, in Africa we saw societies that herded cattle and planted crops had to enslave, or kill and eat, vagrants that were apt to hunt other people’s cattle and gather from other people’s gardens. The shift from hunting and gathering to herding and gardening involved extended cooperation – and a fair bit of brutality to hunters and gatherers.

As birds are born to fly, humans are born to cooperate. That is our key capability. Our telos is various forms of cooperation, as the heart’s telos is to circulate blood. The whites of our eyes are white, so that other people can see what we are looking at. We are vulnerable to choking, because our throat is optimized towards making a wider variety of distinct sounds than other animals. We have a more muscles in our face than other animals, so that we can unfalsifiably communicate our emotional state, just as every feature of a bird’s anatomy is optimized for low weight and high metabolic output. This cooperation manifested as tribes cooperating to kill other tribes and capture their women. Order consists of extended cooperation. Because entropy naturally tends to increase, because there are a near infinity of ways for society to be disordered, but only a small number of ways for it to be ordered, maintaining order requires a fair bit of ruthlessness towards disorderly people and towards outgroups whose cooperation is unlikely. Gays undermine male solidarity. David’s mighty men could cohere because David could love Jonathan. David could love Jonathan because gays were put to death. Peoples who have gay parades do not win wars.

The ten commandments consist of four commandments concerning man’s relationship to God, five commandments that had the effect of ensuring that congregation of the Lord operated on a cooperate cooperate basis, and the final commandment, the tenth commandment, prohibited coming up with clever rationales for undermining, subverting, and re-interpreting those five.

The four commandments that facilitate cooperation are:
Exodus 20:

Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
Thou shalt not kill.
Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Thou shalt not steal.
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

The rule on honoring thy parents and committing adultery secured ownership of family, thus cooperation within the family. The rules against killing, stealing, and false witness enabled economic cooperation on the basis of property rights and the market economy.

And the final commandment:

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.

prohibits people from concocting ingenious theories as to why someone else’s property or wife is rightfully their own – forbids the entire ideology and program of Social Justice.

Compliance to the four commandments concerning God made fellow members of the congregation readily identifiable, and by complying with these four commandments, for which compliance was as visible as possible, one gave other members of the congregation reason to believe one would comply with the other five commandments, for which compliance was less visible, and thus reason to believe that cooperation with people who complied with the first four would be reciprocated and rewarded by cooperation, resulting in cooperate/cooperate equilibrium.

Social Justice Warriors have turned the tenth commandment on its head, making envy and covetousness a sacrament. This explains their chronic failure to cooperate, explains why rallies to save the earth leave a snail trail of trash behind them. Social Justice declares that what people have is “privilege” and should be taken away from them. Which creates a society in which people have no reason to have wealth or family.

A religion is a synthetic tribe. If the priesthood has power and status, and also has open entry into the priesthood, one gets holiness spirals – as for example priestly celibacy. Cooperate cooperate equilibrium, giving every man his due, makes all good members of the religion equal in holiness though unequal in property and power, thus a holiness spiral is going to redefine holiness away from forms that promote cooperation. The tribal religion has to reward exceptional and unusual holiness with honor, but not power and wealth. Send saints to live in a hermitage with spartan living conditions on a remote island as far from the capital as possible, where they can demonstrate superior holiness without subverting and undermining social order. On the one hand, to encourage good behavior, the society must honor supererogatory holiness. On the other hand preaching superogatory holiness always threatens to redefine holiness in ways that undermine order, making holiness a force of disorder instead of order.

...

Starbucks hates its customers, and LucasFilm hates its customers, which subverts cooperation on the basis of exchange. While practicing supererogation should be honored, preaching it needs to be forcefully suppressed. People who preach supererogation should not be martyred, which might increase their status, but rather treated like a stray dog that chases chickens – punished in ways that lower their status.

...

If the Sovereign is forced to punish someone who preaches supererogatory holiness in a way that might potentially increase their status (and Charles the second was forced to burn one conspicuously and irritatingly holy nonconformist woman at the stake) the Sovereign should lock the body in a mortuary for three days, and on the third day ironically check the body to see if they have risen from the dead. But it is as dangerous to martyr those who preach supererogatory holiness, as it is to tolerate them. The Sovereign must always strike at primarily at their status, as Russia dealt with Pussy Riot and European University.

While entropy always increases, it is always possible to locally reduce entropy, usually at the expense of someone else less effective and successful at extended cooperation (as, for example, women, pussy riot, gays, or hunter gatherer outgroups).

The highest and best example of this is western civilization, which is anglo civilization, which is the restoration of Charles the Second. The restoration gave us science, technology, corporate capitalism, industrialization, and world empire, which represent the highest level of extended cooperation ever achieved.

The restoration cured the disorderly tendencies of the protestant holiness spiral by putting priests under bishops, and bishops under the King. Which was the imposition of order, at the expense of “non conformists” – whose very name implies their disorderly tendencies. “Non conformists” were priests, professors, judges, and suchlike who were disinclined to accept this hierarchy, on the grounds that the King at the top was conspicuously lacking in holiness. We need to do something similar with our university system, as well as radically reducing its size and the amount of time it sucks out of people’s lives – we need to do Charles the Second’s Bishops, and Henry the Eighth’s dissolution of the monasteries.

Universities have always had as their primary job inculcating people in the official religion, and giving people cultural and scientific knowledge has always been merely their secondary job. Lately, their secondary job has largely been abandoned. It used to be that giving people job skills was entirely irrelevant, since this was done by enforceable apprenticeship.

We shall restore the enforceable apprenticeship system and divest universities of the task of giving people job skills, in the process divesting them of the power to accredit people to jobs. We shall give considerably higher, but still secondary, priority to the task of giving people cultural and scientific knowledge, and change the official religion to make it saner, by erasing all doctrines that are potentially falsifiable by the realities of this world. Members of the elite will still be required to adhere to the official religion, as they are now, but the task of checking adherence will not be outsourced to the universities. Instead, people in state jobs and quasi statal jobs will be required to recite a catechism and take an oath.

Contrary to the myth about the plymouth rock puritans, that early puritans supposedly filled the North American continent, where we have genealogies, puritans are descended from those who left restoration England to establish their own dissident theocracy, not from the pre english civil war wave of migrants fleeing Charles the first, but from the post civil war wave of “noncomformist” migrants fleeing the restoration, fleeing Charles the Second and subsequent Kings. The first wave, the pre civil war wave, left very few direct descendants.

Restoration England was successful at elite eugenic reproduction, because women were kept under control, and cured the disorderly propensities of the protestant reformation by keeping “non conformists” under control, thereby enabling the extended cooperation that made science and industry possible. Immediately after the restoration, we see Ayn Rand’s heroic archetype appear, the scientist engineer CEO, mobilizing other people’s capital and other people’s labor to advance technology and make that technology widely available. Often these were people who before the restoration had competed for superior holiness, (analogous to Musk’s subsidized and money burning tesla, solar panels, and solar batteries), but after the restoration competed for creating technology to produce value (analogous to Musk’s reusable booster rocket.) This form of order was made possible at the expense of “non conformists”, such as the excessively holy woman that Charles the Second burned at the stake.

In order for society to have cooperate/cooperate equilibrium, the science, industry, and technology that we see promoted by the corporate form, in order to promote cooperation with cooperators, the sovereign must promote defection on defectors. One such defector being a holy woman conspicuously holier than Charles the Second. Charles the second successfully redirected status competition from unproductive channels into productive channels, as for example members of the Royal Society gaining status by discovering truth and speaking truth, while previously puritans had gained power and status by having a Christianity that was purer than the other man’s Christianity. You will notice that Putin dealt with Pussy Riot’s weaponized supererogatory holiness preaching in a way that deliberately maximized disorder – maximized outgroup disorder in order to sustain ingroup order. That is the way to do it.

The restoration created a society that had the greatest cooperate/cooperate equilibrium ever, where people were able to engage in positive sum cooperation, which was made possible by severely negative sum uncooperation – you cannot get more negative sum than burning an excessively holy woman at the stake. If Charles the Second had not burned a holy woman at the stake for excessive, conspicuous, and obnoxiously superior holiness, he would have had the William Wilberforce problem.

Humans are inherently tribal. We have ethnicities and religions, all of which are in substantial part the same phenomenon. A millet is a smaller tribe (religion) within the empire that the empire recognizes and grants some limited self rule and autonomy.

Two tribes cannot co-exist in overlapping territory, except they create little zones for themselves, for example the black table in school cafe. One tribe will always rule, and another will always be ruled. Segregation and Jim Crow was an effort to give blacks autonomy and self rule, make them into a millet, conditional on the black rulers assimilating to white middle class values and behavior. Integration proved to be black dominion. When the blacks were allowed to the front of the bus, they inevitably wound up forcing white people off the buses.

This tribalism is the problem with libertarianism – if you allow liberty, people will use it to synthesize smaller ingroups within the larger group in order to dominate the detribalized majority. William Wilberforce and his “elect” destroyed what the restoration had accomplished, undermining the small scale cooperation between men and women to have children, and the cooperation between elites and individual members of the elite to maintain an empire that kept large scale economic cooperation over the oceans. His successors transliterated the religion of the elect from the next world to this world, creating modern progressivism. Since the transliterated tenets, such as equality, are transparently false to this world, this required them to reject truth telling and truth speaking, resulting in peer review and the replication crisis that has destroyed science.

The earthly telos of holiness is to promote the broadest possible cooperate/cooperate equilibrium. Holiness competition results in people finding grounds to declare other people unholy, thus Starbucks and LucasFilms declare their customers unholy, thus holiness competition destroys the earthly telos of holiness. Therefore we cannot allow excessively holy people to gain power in the state religion. Instead, need to send Social Justice Warriors away from the universities off to a hermitage in a remote island and honor their superior holiness from a safe distance. If someone wants to demonstrate superior holiness, it should be costly for himself, rather profitable for himself, and costly for everyone around him. Superior holiness and performing superogatory acts has to be made unprofitable.

Jim, Jim's Blog 4 Comments [7/17/2018 6:30:26 AM]
Fundie Index: 2

Quote# 138909

Life ends in your late 20s

There are no experiences worth having beyond this point. Life is just slavery, whether you're an incel or normie. The only difference is who we serve. Beta males will dedicate the rest of their cucked existence to their (((jobs))), ungrateful roastie wives, and Chad's kids. JFL if you envy them. JFL if you want to be grown.

I don't think we were meant to live this long. Youngcels, enjoy the small amount of freedom you have now because youth is everything.

fukmylyf, incels.me 14 Comments [7/16/2018 7:38:30 AM]
Fundie Index: 2
Submitted By: Pharaoh Bastethotep

Quote# 138818


Children simply lack the maturity to make sexual decisions. Our bodies may have evolved to be sexually mature by age 13, but the average person only lived into his thirties in prehistoric times. Just because the body is ready doesn't mean the mind can make mature decisions in today's world.

But they have the maturity to make traffic decisions as they walk to school or ride a bicycle? As I was suggesting to Brian, you seem to think sex is a dangerous thing. Its a wonder humanity survived if so.

Another strange thing about your point here is that you seem to think its harder to get by in today's world than prehistoric times! Therefore, more maturity is required with regards to sex! How completely preposterous! We can prevent pregnancies with drugs and condoms. Most diseases can be cured with a shot. STD testing can be done to ensure partners are disease free. I scarcely understand how more maturity is needed now than in the past.

I also don't see why sex has be such supreme danger. With an attitude like that, its a wonder you would let a 13 year old cross the road by themself.

Sex has real consequences that can change or end lives -- STDs, pregnancy, and emotional damage are all among them.

Well, I already addressed pregnancy and STDs. (And I still don't think they hold a candle to getting run over on a bicycle). But emotional damage? Where do you get this stuff?

Is it illegal for teens to have sex with eachother? No. So what of the emotional damage? Again, you seem to be saying that sex is extremely dangerous. Pah! You want emotional damage? Divorce. Death in the family. Moving away. Paralysis from a cheerleading accident.

For me, sex and sexual things have always been emotionally soothing. From playing doctor when I was a kid to bonking with my girlfriend today.

I wonder if you ever in your life considered the emotional damage of NOT having sex. I experienced plenty of that before I got out of college. It was a very painful time. I am grateful for every childhood and teen sexual experience I had, but I did not have nearly enough. Both my childhood and teen sexual experiences involved adults (though I wanted but did not have actual sex). The only thing that hurt me was have to wait for months and years before the next experience. Surely I am not alone.

If you ask me teens especially are being harmed emotionally by being cut off from the rest of the humanity in this way. I blame this state of affairs for things like smoking, binge drinking and runaways. Used to be a 13 year old could expect to be married soon. Now they are forced into celibacy essentially. Its inhuman cruelty and no wonder teens are viewed as being unstable when they are treated like this.

Maybe stoning is too harsh, but I'd have no problem seeing pedophiles castrated, if they're more than a few years older than their victims.

This sentence is mixed up 8 ways from Sunday. I have to assume that since you said pedophiles and victim, that you mean the younger party is twelve at the outside, since that is about average for puberty. A few years older would be 15. So you would not only call a 15 year old with a 12 year old partner a pedophile, you would have them castrated?

You also assume the younger party is upset or harmed and is a victim out of hand. And further you don't seem to realize that most age of consent violations are not committed by pedophiles.

Like BrianLewis, your viewpoints are based on unfounded assumptions that are very negative about sex and that have been feed to you by a sex negative society. Your viewpoints are contradictary and you don't seem to have examined anything in much depth at all. Yet it seems you have firmly made up your mind despite those horrible failings.

I had a couple friends, one girl of 14 and a man of 20. They fell in love. Their relationship was approved by her father, a man who is very strict and very protective of his children. Last I heard, they got married. I ask you, would you have my friend castrated?

---------- Post added at 02:37 ---------- Previous post was at 02:11 ----------

RolandtheHeadless said:
Amen. Adults who have sex with children are exploiting them, and they're rapists because children lack the capacity for consent.

Can a child consent to surgery? Can a child consent to eating mashed pototoes? Either could be life threatening. I find it strange where capacity to consent is touted as the end-all-be-all argument for sex issues, but completely ignored for pretty much all other issues.

I was a child once. I consented to a lot of things. I knew who I liked and who I didn't. I was very interested in sex and I knew who I would like to have sex with and who I wouldn't. I did not lack capacity. I lacked experience and knowledge. You don't gain either for doing nothing.

My view of your philosophy is that you first enforce ignorance. Then you say they can't consent because they are ignorant. Its extremely backward thinking.

I also don't like that you would call someone a rapist and exploiter just because of age even though they may well be kind and caring and generous to their sex partner, and would not dream of harming or tricking them. Rape has a real and serious meaning, and you dilute it with ideas like that.

It is preposterous to decide such issues on age alone at the expense of a million other details, including and especially the sentiments of the child or teen in question.

Pedophiles who act on their perversion make me want to punch their lights out.

They said the same of gays 50 years ago.

The only real perversion is asexuality.

Mark of Zorro, Japan Reference forums 6 Comments [7/16/2018 2:40:27 PM]
Fundie Index: 5
Submitted By: Menomaru

Quote# 45785

If you don't believe God created all living things, male and female, in 6 days....
How many millions of years was it between the first male and the first female?

Unknown, Missing Universe Museum 38 Comments [8/24/2008 11:56:51 PM]
Fundie Index: 4
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