Logic and reason do not lead to good. They lead to whatever the objective or desire of the individual of the world permits it to be so. Universal good is for all and can only be found in the guidance of the divine. Lastly, because the divine exists and gives many evidence of that fact, religion will be here for as long as we are.
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But what exactly is this "guidance of the divine"? An ancient book full of arbitrary and sometimes downright silly rules. You can't base any kind of ethics on that, anymore than you can base it on the Egyptian Book of the Dead.
Logic and reason are extensions of Free Will. It was Free Will that led Adam and Eve to defy the Lord and eat the Forbidden Fruit. Free Will is a lie used by Satan to corrupt humanity. All True Christians should eschew the falsehoods of logic and reason and rely on the Godly virtues of piety, obedience, and service to the Lord.
"Logic and reason do not lead to good."
That right there is worth a thousand WTF's.
"...religion will be here for as long as we are."
True, but not for the reason you think. Religion will stay with us, because we humans have always valued lying to ourselves/each other to make us feel better.
So as the master troll I am, I got banned from the forums for 6 days(Jesus, the trolololololol wasn't hint enough?) So...I'll have to comment again.
> Logic and reason do not lead to good. They lead to whatever the objective or desire of the individual of the world permits it to be so.
That's just a technicality. Logic can, and should, be used for good, not evil. You'll find it's a very effective way to do it, unless you're afraid of what might learn on the way.
Religion is only OK for benign people who are mostly sane, mainly calm and rational, and who enjoy harmless communal ritual, healthy social intercourse and who are at heart humane. But then, you'd think, those people wouldn't really need a religion.
When religion is practised by the delusional, the insane, the emotionally unstable or by liars and demagogues, it rapidly spirals down into a welter of spittle-flecking madness of murderous intent.
Religion is then like an implacable boot of frustrated and obdurate ignorance that stomps all humanity under its heel of raging stupidity.
People talk as if logic and spiritualty are mutually exclusive, but they're not. I'm a very spiritual person, but I rely on pure logic just as often as, if not more than, my spiritual beliefs when I have a moral dilemma. When in doubt, I trust the intelligence the gods gave me above all, even if that means taking the more difficult path more often than not. Perhaps there's a lesson in that.
Universal good is for all and can only be found in the guidance of the divine.
The problem is, the divine doesn't give us any guidance. Far from giving "many evidence", he doesn't even reveal his existence, except in peoples' imaginations. What we have is people telling us what the divine wants, based on the same "objective or desire of the individual" doing the telling you're complaining about.
"Logic and reason do not lead to good. They lead to whatever the objective or desire of the individual of the world permits it to be so."
No, that's fundie circular reasoning. Logic and reason lead to the computer you're using to post your christianist lies.
"Universal good is for all and can only be found in the guidance of the divine."
Prove the 'divine' exists first. 1 Thessalonians 5:21 (KJV) forces you to.
Simple. Logic . [/Capt. James T. Kirk]
Logic and reason do not lead to good.
I'd say penicillin was a pretty good thing. As was the eradication of small pox.
religion will be here for as long as we are
That's the one thing you got 100% correct, unfortunately. But it has nothing to do with evidence (I've seen the so-called evidence for various religions and if you examine it critically instead of being swept up in the moment you realize that it's rather weak). It has to do with the fact that we are a superstitious species that feels extremely uncomfortable ever admitting to not knowing something. Seeing as science will always have gaps in knowledge for the foreseeable future, there will always be a new question that "can only be answered with God". On top of that, we will probably always have people who will ignore everything we know so we'll still have some form of creationism for the foreseeable future.
But by definition evidence is the antithesis of faith. As the divine is nothing without faith, evidence for the existence of the divine would make them disappear in a *poof* of logic.
And that's why you shouldn't believe anything that is unprovable.
Religion does not lead to good. That there are many sects and belief systems is proof that religion imposes a form of divisive collectivism. "Good" in that framework becomes what is good for the membership, and may be obtained at the expense of "sinners," "heathens," or "heretics" or "infidels" that are outside the sect. This ultimately leads to the belief that the ends justify the means, and is used to rationalize all manner of viscous and criminal behavior directed at outsiders.
This is observable reality and recorded history, unlike your "many evidence" of SuperSkyDaddy's existence. Logic, Q, E, and D.
Logic and reason are tools, and tools can be used to do evil. But the divine is as silent as it is invisible, and has given us no guidance whatsoever, any more than it has given us proof of its existence. We have to rely on our shared humanity to do good; that is what we should be cultivating, not the interpretation of Bronze Age myths.
Logic and reason do not lead to good...Lastly, because the divine exists and gives many evidence of that fact
STOP. First of all, you're not going to slip something that big into a conversation without backing it up. If you're claiming that there's evidence, you need to bring it forward.
However, this is beside the bigger point...if logic and reason really don't lead to good, and if the divine really is the only source of good, then it follows that logic and reason DON'T lead to the divine.
If that's the case, why would you be concerned with evidence?
Universal good is for all and can only be found in the guidance of the divine.
Rape is Universally Good, asking why rape is Universally Good is Universally Bad...
"Logic and reason do not lead to good. They lead to whatever the objective or desire of the individual of the world permits it to be so."
i agree.
"Universal good is for all and can only be found in the guidance of the divine."
how did you arrive at that conclusion?
"Universal good is for all and can only be found in the guidance of the divine."
That's rot. If it were true, it would be logical. You can't even show there IS any such thing as "the divine."
It is impossible to argue against logic itself, because you must yourself use logic to form such an argument.
How can your argument possibly be correct? If you were to somehow succeed in arguing that logic is invalid, you would have also invalidated your own argument.
Logic and reason do not lead to good.
Logic and reason are the enemies of baloney. When you're slinging baloney, the first thing you want to do is attack logic and reason.
Uh...you may want to rethink that last bit. There's been a decline in number of people who profess to be religious, not just "spiritual." Also, some people have been doing do all their lives,and they've been atheists the whole time. But I guess you're one of those knobheads who thinks "It's not good unless it's done for God/the divine."
"Lastly, because the divine exists and gives many evidence of that fact..."
What evidence is that, exactly, which proves that the divine exists? Be specific.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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