Here is where the definition of the word religion becomes absolutely critical. If by ‘religion’ the founders meant Christianity, then you can ban a monument to Satan, because that is not Christianity. But if by ‘religion’ you mean anything, any system of belief, whether it’s Christian or not, then you have no way, you have no way to tell the Satanists, ‘You can’t have your monument.
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No, Fischer, religion is not just Christianity. Shocking, I know.
(from article)By religion,’ the founders were thinking of Christianity. So the purpose was to protect the free exercise of the Christian faith.
Well, no, if my religion you mean anything, then ANY monument erected on public land who's key purpose is of a religious context should be banned, whether its Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Satanist or whatever.. that's the point.
The Treaty of Tripoli, which was written during the time of George Washington's presidency and signed by President Adams, both of whom are founding fathers, makes a clear distinction in Article 11 that the U.S. was not founded on the "Christian religion." That wording makes it clear that even they understood there are other religions and Christianity is just one religion among other religions.
So, Bryan, you are right when you say, "you have no way to tell the Satanists, You can’t have your monument'."
Either the founders meant all religion by religion, in which case all religion is protected, or they only meant Christianity by religion, in which case they were incredibly stupid for not making that clear and thus we shouldn't listen to them anyway.
Of course, one only needs read the writings of Jefferson and Madison to see what was meant.
Then again... I thought Christianity was not a religion. According to the whacknuts themselves.
>> ban a monument to Satan, because that is not Christianity.
Yes it is, Satan is a character from the bible, so he is as much part of christianity as Jesus.
The bill for establishing religious freedom, the principles of which had, to a certain degree, been enacted before, I had drawn in all the latitude of reason and right. It still met with opposition; but, with some mutilations in the preamble, it was finally passed; and a singular proposition proved that its protection of opinion was meant to be universal. Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word "Jesus Christ," so that it should read, "a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo, and Infidel of every denomination.
"If by religion’ the founders meant Christianity... "
... then they would made it abundantly clear and used the word Christianity in their writings and governmental documents. It's not rocket science.
Fucking fundies, all they have are intellectually dishonest word games and the mangling of concepts. It's all so tiring. If the increasingly deified "Founding Fathers" were as devoutly Christian and authoritarian as assholes like this make them out to be they would have injected "Christianity" into everything they wrote and did like every other fundie I've met or read. They can't help but to dry-hump Jesus into every single thing. FFS.
But if by religion’ you mean anything, any system of belief, whether it’s Christian or not, then you have no way, you have no way to tell the Satanists, You can’t have your monument.
Appeal to consequences isn't a valid argument; if Satanists want to build lawfully a monument and generally peacefully worship their god then it's not my problem nor an issue.
Moreover, what and who will define who's a True ChristianTM ? Jesus's status as prophet (but Muslims and Bahai'is think he's one)? Bible's status (innerant)? Will heterodox groups such as Latter-day Saints, Seventh-day Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses not be counted as Ahmadis in Pakistan ? Who will draw the line?
Bryan Fischer: "But if by religion’ you mean anything, any system of belief, whether it’s Christian or not, then you have no way, you have no way to tell the Satanists, You can’t have your monument.’"
Bud Abbott: "Now, that's the FIRST THING you've said right!"
Bryan Fischer: "I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT!!!"
Bryan, if, when the founders said "religion" they meant "Christianity," then when the First Amendment says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion," it applies only to Christianity. This would leave Congress free to set up a state ruled by sharia or halakha. Perhaps you haven't thought this through too well...
But if by religion’ you mean anything, any system of belief, whether it’s Christian or not
Light dawns over Marblehead. Probably not, though. He'll say "no" to that "if".
If you want to go somewhere on Earth and you set out in the exact opposite direction, you'll eventually get there none the less.
I think that's what Bryan just did with the last sentence.
No Bryan, you're wrong again. It no longer matters what the founders actually meant; the Supreme Court has decided the Constitution means "any system of beliefs."
End of discussion, you lose.
Since the latter is the case, Fischface, let the Satanists & the Hindus have their monuments to Ol' Scratch & Lord Hanuman, respectively.
But if by religion’ you mean anything, any system of belief, whether it’s Christian or not, then you have no way, you have no way to tell the Satanists, You can’t have your monument.
...and that's the idea Bryan...
The software running on your brain, presumably Microscopicsoft, may be rudimentry, but at least it's got its own inbuilt dictionary, Fundieword.
Except the word "religion" describes not just Christianity but also, among others, Judaism, Jainism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Zoroastrianism, Druze, Pastafarianism, Shintoism, and, yes, Satanism.
You fail.
But if by religion’ you mean anything, any system of belief, whether it’s Christian or not, then you have no way, you have no way to tell the Satanists, You can’t have your monument.
Yeah... Those pesky Founding Fathers and their broad-minded view.
The only reason this upsets you is that it is a sign your religion is losing it's preferred status, and the fact that you can't interfere with rights of others.
"You can’t have your monument."
And right-wing Fundamental ist Christainity can't have it's tax-exempt status.
Funny how that works out, eh? Can't have your 'Religion' cake, and 'Personal Relationship with Jesus' eat it too, Bryan Fischite & co.
PROTIP: $cientology, whilst it is a religion in the US (thus has tax-exemption, like your brand of Christainity), yet here in the UK it isn't legally recognised as a religion, thus the Orgs etc here have to pay tax on their income ('Auditing', courses, books etc). Funny how that works out II, eh...?!
Just keep pushing that 'Ours isn't a religion' BS, Bryan; especially that whole 'Atheism is a religion' BS II. You may get a visit from the IRS one day, so just keep it up, fundies in the US.
Actually, Satanism is very near to being a sect of Christianity. The mythology is the same, but the teachings are far different.
This would be similar to the split between Mahayana and Theravada Buddhists.
I'm not sure how our resident Satanists would feel about that classification though. At any rate, I'm surprised Hades isn't mentioned more often for the big who gets a shrine debate, after the critical role he plays in Revelations myth arc.
Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects?
And if the founders, by 'religion', meant 'the sky is pink', it would have exactly as much relevance as if the founders had meant 'Christianity is the only religion', because guess what--*words mean things*. And 'religion' does not only refer to Christianity.
@CleverScreenName
Sorry, I'm afraid you're wrong.
God is an authoritarian prick with such a huge ego he created us just so he would have a bunch of puppets to worship him. He condemns everyone to an infinite torture for the crime of not being sincere enough in their worship.
Satan was his first lieutenant who gave up his position of power and luxury to attempt to remove a totalitarian regime he was benefitting from. He then gave humans knowledge and freedom from our enslavement to God.
The Satanists are the ones that are rooting for the GOOD guy.
But if by religion’ you mean anything, any system of belief, whether it’s Christian or not, then you have no way, you have no way to tell the Satanists, You can’t have your monument.
I never thought I'd ever agree with anything Bryan Fischer ever said, but yet here it is. Unfortunately he thinks "religion" in the First Amendment talks about Christianity only.
You know, there's a good way to settle this. Just take it to the Supreme Court and argue that NO religious displays of any kind should be allowed on public property, and then if you win the Satanists would not be allowed to have their monument. Of course, neither would the Christians, but that's a small price to pay.
Fischer: "... you can ban a monument to Satan, because that is not Christianity."
Actually Satan is a major player in the Christian pantheon of demi-gods. Also known as Lucifer, God acknowleges him as "His favorite angel and his finest creation."
Fischer is preaching heresy, therefore is an agent of the Devil, both offenses of which qualify him for stoning unto death.
Wow. For once, you're absolutely correct. ZOMG IT'S A MIRACLE!1one
And, since the Founders left enough of their documents and writings behind to indicate that they DID mean "any system of belief, whether it's Christian or not," there IS no valid, legal and Constitutional way to tell the Satanists--and ONLY the Satanists--to fuck off. Your religion doesn't get a special exemption from the law.
Which means you have two, and ONLY two choices:
(1) put up with the Satanist monument, along with the monuments any other religious group cares to put up;
or
(2) ban them all.
In neither case, do you get to play favorites. Either they all stay, or they all go. Your choice.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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