Quote# 105206

The fact is (and this will anger the tender-hearted and tender-minded among you), homosexuality is a natural aberration. It is a deviation from healthy, natural sexual attraction just as much as pedophilia and zoophilia. In decades past, it was labeled as a psychological pathology and was only declassified as such under pressure from the forces of political correctness.

This does not give us justification for persecuting homosexuals or judging them as bad people, as the vast majority of them (except Dan Savage) are most assuredly wonderful human beings. However, just because we have been able to successfully separate those who practice homosexuality from their behavior and love them in spite of it doesn’t give us license to sweep the truth about the behavior under the rug.

Jeremy N. Choate, Sufficient Reason 39 Comments [12/12/2014 7:03:08 PM]
Fundie Index: 7
Submitted By: Ace

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Old Viking

The "Not subscribing to my definition is an aberration" theory of moral judgment.

12/12/2014 7:14:44 PM


Look, if you're going to appeal to tradition with psychology, then perhaps you should know that for a long time, female horniness was also classified as a "mental disorder". Perhaps we should reinstate it as such?

12/12/2014 7:26:22 PM


*without looking up from newspaper*

Adults can give consent children and animals cannot, next!

12/12/2014 7:51:02 PM


It has one huge difference from pedophilia and pedophilia, two concerning adults. That is why homosexuality should not be demonized like those other two.

12/12/2014 8:06:38 PM

Doubting Thomas

We don't have justification for persecuting homosexuals or judging them as bad people, but we're still going to do it anyway.

12/12/2014 9:13:08 PM


++"homosexuality is a natural aberration."

Agreed. Homosexuality, though a deviation from the norm, is perfectly natural. Sort of like green eyes or white hair. That is what you meant by "natural aberration", right?

12/12/2014 9:15:43 PM


No tender mind here. Homosexuality is a "deviation" from "normal," aka the majority orientation, but it is not a deviation from judgement-laden terms like "healthy" and "natural." It's obviously natural, because it exists all over nature, and there's nothing "unhealthy" about it intrinsically. The "truth about the behavior" is that it consists of free adults interacting with mutual consent. Why do you think you need to involve yourself with other people's relationships? Does the existence of happy homos make you regret your life choices??

12/12/2014 9:28:40 PM


...doesn’t give us license to sweep the truth about the behavior under the rug.

Since your entire screed is nothing but lies, hatred, and hypocrisy, I'm quite certain that you have no truth to sweep anywhere.

12/12/2014 9:32:52 PM


" it was labeled as a psychological pathology and was only declassified as such under pressure from the forces of political correctness. "

He's referring to the 1973 decision of the APA to declassify homosexuality as a disorder. But he's being unclear: it was not fully declassified at that time. One form was retained in the diagnostic logic of that era. He's right that the change was wrought by political pressures. There were no scientific breakthroughs that warranted the change in classification. In that respect it is deeply wrong that scientists change their theories according to political pressure rather than empirical reasons of science. To be fair, the earlier scientific theory that homosexuality was a disorder also had its problems such as data bias.

The author should also have mentioned that some members of the faction of psychiatric theorists who declassified homosexuality as a disorder also at a later date wanted to declassify pedophilia as a disorder but they were rebuffed. They also created a fake diagnostic category of psychopathology which was rejected because they dismally failed to find one single case. In other words their work was compromised by incompetence and intellectual dishonesty.

My own view is that early concepts of homosexuality as disorder were flawed and the later one that it was "normal" is also flawed. There is actually a middle road available for impartial theorisation but in this era where ideology trumps science few want to know about it.

12/12/2014 9:51:32 PM



"Since your entire screed is nothing but lies, hatred, and hypocrisy"

There's no evidence that his text is motivated by hate. You are resorting to a stereotype to explain" his post. His text should be assessed as factual claims and if he is wrong then that's factual error, not lying.

He's morally right in admonishing us not to sweep the truth under the carpet. There are indeed problems associated with homosexuality e.g. young male prostitution. By failing to acknowledge a problem and deal with it we may well be aggravating a problem. Aren't we supposed to be looking after our youngsters?

12/12/2014 10:08:44 PM


Learn consent you dumbfuck.

12/12/2014 10:41:46 PM



Oh right, my apologies, he doesn't actually hate them, he just thinks of them as mentally ill, equivalent to pedophiles or zoophiles (because apparently all people are like children and animals now) and alleges that political pressure is the only thing that prevents him from throwing them in a loony bin. But he doesn't hate them. I wonder if you and your family were treated the same way, if you would be as understanding of their 'love' towards you.

Also, young male prostitutes are an effect of homosexuality? Alone? Because, of course, women never hire prostitutes? And even if they don't, even if you're against prostitution (and I know there are many legitimate arguments that can be made against it), you believe this is somehow a bigger problem than, say, young female prostitutes? A problem that is considerably larger in scope and scale? Do you believe that there are, therefore, problems in heterosexuality which may be solved by declaring anyone with a functional sex drive a mental deviant, because they may have sex with a child?

Trafficking is a problem. But don't try to combine it with another issue just to smear the latter. Should there be solutions to problems like child trafficking? Undoubtedly. But the solution is no more in persecuting gay people as a whole than in persecuting straight people, as a whole.

12/13/2014 12:09:33 AM


Paedophilia doesn't have to be a mental illness in order for child rape to considered morally wrong or illegal. Just like murder, really.

12/13/2014 2:46:51 AM


It is a deviation from healthy, natural sexual attraction just as much as pedophilia and zoophilia.
[citation needed]

12/13/2014 5:07:21 AM

Hasan Prishtina

@ Anton

You are right that the decision to declassify homosexuality was not based on a scientific breakthrough. But nor was the decision to classify it. Perhaps we might take this as a lesson that scientists are just as much the product of their time and place as anyone else.

12/13/2014 5:18:37 AM


Ah, you are aware that most animal species are actively bi-sexual? So therefore it is a "natural" practice? So why would da Lawd do that, I wonder?

12/13/2014 6:35:59 AM

Nicholas Krizov

Y'know, at least with religious homophobes, we can chalk their bigotry to backwards superstition. But secular homophobes? No excuse. If you ask me, it's the secular homophobes, secular racists, and secular sexists that are the most reprehensible. When it's not motivated by ignorance, Tradition(tm) or blind hatred, but by this pseudo-logic, then you're just a pure bigot with no leg to stand on.

You, sir, do not have "Sufficient Reason". As punishment, by the power vested in me by the Commonwealth of Virginia, I hereby revoke your breathing license. Have a nice day. :-)

12/13/2014 10:22:23 AM


Mental illness is something you're usually born with, like your sexuality. You can class them together which is stupid and wrong, but it still doesn't mean that it's something that can just change in a person or that a person with any mental disorder should be mocked,preached at, or treated with contempt as if it's there fault for being that way and assuming that's going to help them.

This just makes you look like a douche incapable of empathy or understanding.

12/13/2014 11:53:19 AM

@ Nicholas Krizov

I agree with your first paragraph, but Jeremy Choate is a Christian (you seemed to imply that he wasn't one; if that's not what you meant to say, then I misunderstood you).

12/13/2014 12:06:32 PM


Saying it's a deviation from a healthy, natural sexual attraction is intrinsically suggesting that it's somehow unhealthy or unnatural. As far as anyone can tell, it doesn't appear to be either...

A blonde person in China is a deviation from the norm - a statistical aberration - but it doesn't mean they're unhealthy or unnatural.

12/13/2014 12:31:19 PM

Professor von SCIENCE!!!

I swear, Jeremy, just meet a gay person in a non-confrontational situation and you'll find they're like any other group of people with some being assholes and others being awesome.

Also, leave Dan Savage along, he's a national treasure.

12/13/2014 12:49:06 PM

Nicholas Krizov

@ 1741429

He is?

I didn't click the link, so I assumed (from the language he used here) that he was, if not non-theist, then at least secular in some way. He certainly didn't OVERTLY invoke his Gawd as justification. My bad.

He's still a utter douche, though.

12/13/2014 3:58:46 PM

Nicholas Krizov

@ Professor von SCIENCE!!!

While I commend Savage for turning "rick santorum" into the dirtiest two-word sentence in the English language, and while I think he's a decent sex journalist, the guy's not exactly a saint.

He's made transphobic and biphobic remarks in the past, and though I'm pretty sure he's "evolved" on these issues since, I'm also pretty sure he's still mostly concerned about the "LG" portion of "LGBTQ" - B's, T's and Q's be damned.

12/13/2014 4:06:23 PM


Pedophilia and zoophilia harms individuals who can't give informed consent. Homosexuality only includes individuals who CAN give informed consent.

Can you also separate those who practice heterosexuality from their behavior and love them in spite of it?

12/13/2014 4:15:09 PM

"just as much as pedophilia and zoophilia". Seriously!? What part of "mutual consent don't these guys understand!?

12/13/2014 4:21:30 PM

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