dlo_3us2001 #fundie

dlo_3us2001 #fundie groups.yahoo.com

Responding to a comment made by another member: "There is a supernatural hatred of both Jews and Christians in the world and country. There is nothing logical about it.

It's amusing to see the left claim it is a right-wing problem given all the antisemitism [sic] on its side from Muslims and blacks like Al Sharpton. The left is vehemently anti-Israel."

Jesus said it would happen.

It is caused by their hatred of God/Jesus/The Holy Spirit and the Holy Bible.

I will stick with God/Jesus/The Holy Spirit and the Holy Bible, over the liberals, democrats, leftists, evolutionists,
homosexuals, transgenders, feminists, Antifa's, Black Lives Matter groups, prochoicers, Muslims, KKK, White Supremacy groups, Non Believers, false teachers, blind guides, anti-Semitism groups, Communists, Nazi groups,

These groups have NOTHING to offer, but, sin, looting, rioting, protesting, hatred, anger, bondage and death.

Sandy

21 comments

old comment by hydrolythe

Nothing in the bible teaches evolution denial, unless you take the position that it took exactly 7 days to make it as opposed to it being a metaphor for a very long time. The Catholic church says it's the latter, but I guess that protestants love being scientifically illiterate. Also, the Bible is racist, so you can't flip-flop. Instead, you should say that we should look back to someone's ethnic heritage as opposed to directly Judge in terms of it's skin color. Lastly, I've to mention you're still opting for totalitarianism, despite you trying to claim the contrary.

@Pharaoh Bastheotep

I agree that parts of the left are antisemitic, but I wonder exactly how Corbyn is. Just saying that you don't like Israël's policies doesn't make you antisemitic. That would be like being considered Islamophobic because you don't like how the Saudi government operates, or being anti-communist because you don't like the policies of Kim-Jong-Il, or anti-capitalist because you don't like Augustin Pinochet's regime. If on the other hand you can show me that some criticism aren't governmental, but directly intertwined with religion itself you might however make a point.

old comment by Vman

@hydrolythe

@Pharaoh Bastheotep
I agree that parts of the left are antisemitic, but I wonder exactly how Corbyn is. Just saying that you don't like Israël's policies doesn't make you antisemitic. That would be like being considered Islamophobic because you don't like how the Saudi government operates, or being anti-communist because you don't like the policies of Kim-Jong-Il, or anti-capitalist because you don't like Augustin Pinochet's regime. If on the other hand you can show me that some criticism aren't governmental, but directly intertwined with religion itself you might however make a point.

It's kinda complicated, actually.

What I've seen so far tells me that Corbyn himself is no anti-Semite. He might be something of an anti-Zionist privately though, and he certainly is quite critical of Israel. You are definitely right that such criticism in and of itself does not make him an anti-Semite (though there are ways of criticizing Israel that can include or amount to anti-Semitism, of course).

It's the implications of his views and suggestions that are more problematic, e.g. what he seems to think about Hamas - but I won't get into that now. Note: I'm not referring to his famed "friends" remark here.
While Corbyn is not an anti-Semite as far as I can tell, there are people in the Labour Party who are, and the Labour Party leadership has often stuck its head in the sand when confronted with it (though they have addressed some of the more glaring incidents).

What is problematic regarding the Left in general is that its existing anti-Semitism is better cloaked than that on the Right. The far right tends to be quite open about it, cheerfully attacking all Jews by using easily-recognizable old anti-Semitic tropes. The far left is often a different story: everything is packaged in terms of anti-Zionism or criticism of Israel, even when it obviously (to me) crosses the line into outright anti-Semitism. The result is that you have anti-Semites that are misguidedly protected by others on the (far) Left who fail to see the problem in the statements and views of said anti-Semites.

Israel has basically become the favourite punching bag of the far left, both when they deserve it and when they don't. A further problem is that the more rabid critics of Israel tend not to differentiate between the State of Israel, which they see as full-blown apartheid regime, and its citizens. Every Israeli thus becomes a deplorable fascist unless they explicitly denounced their own country and openly sympathize with the far left's views on the matter. If you want proof of this, just look at what often happens when an Israeli artist or academic visits some Western countries, especially if they come to speak at a university campus. To too many on the far left, being an Israeli is being a Zionist (unless you explicitly say you're not), and being a Zionist equals being a fascist and a racist. And those deserve being booed off at minimum, if not a sock to the face.

Same goes for anyone not Israeli who expresses some form of support for said country and/or professes to being a Zionist. Despite the word 'Zionist' varying in meaning and implications almost as much as the word 'feminism' depending on who you ask, radicals will not ask you what you mean by that - in their mind, they already know. To them, you are the enemy - a fascist, racist, colonialist, genocide apologist... you name it.

That is the problem. The atmosphere on the topic of Israel is so poisoned and muddled that you can hardly have a reasoned discussion on it. Having little but harsh criticism to say about Israel is not something that's merely allowed on the far left - I feel that it is expected (and do note that I consider myself moderately left-wing, for what it's worth).
Tolerating or even encouraging an atmosphere where any and every swipe against the country is welcomed (no matter how far-fetched) has produced a situation where the same is allowed against the vast majority of its citizens (because what decent human being would live in such a hellhole without crying out against it at the top of their lungs?). And of course that holds true for the "apartheid regime's" apologists wherever they may be. From there it's apparently not a long jump to "Any Jews who in some way support Israel are scum of the earth" or even "any Jews who don't outright oppose Israel are assumed to support it and therefore are horrible people".

Don't get me wrong, many far-left anti-Zionists would in all honesty say that if they were to meet an anti-Semite, they would gladly punch them in the face. The problem is that their definition of who is an 'anti-Semite' is so reduced as to only be applicable to a gaggle of neo-Nazi groups. They are effectively blind to the cancer growing within their own ranks. And make no mistake - it's growing quite well and shows little signs of slowing down, let alone stopping. In the far-left, anti-Semites can find fertile ground as long as they can speak the Left's language and take care to stop short of overdosing on classic anti-Semitic canards and tropes.

Sorry for the length of this, I hope it wasn't too tl;dr or overly incoherent :P

old comment by hydrolythe

@VMAN

Personally, I've my doubts if what we currently describe as far-left is actually far-left in terms of being communist and anarchist. People like Mélenchon are more anti-globalist and really don't like Soviet style economic planning all that much considering that his platform is neo-Keynesianism fused with Sunday school environmentalism and parties like the "Nouveau Parti Anticapitaliste" are more representative of worker's rights and defend things everyday people want (free transport, a labor fee equal to that of a CEO etc.). Yes, hardcore Stalin apologists do still exist (e.g. the MLPD), but it is telling that those are now branded as "cults" rather than "parties" and even they stop short of defending actual communist regimes like Belarus.

That being said, it is indeed true that this anti-globalist discourse can be used to hide anti-semitism and that it is depressingly common in the more fringe groups of the left. (HoaxWiki once talked about a Dutch leftist fake news website where he could find several authors that openly expressed antisemitism on other sites.)

As for me, I think Israel was a bad idea. It took several terrorist attacks to make it and it taught to a whole generation of Arabs that they can get everything if they just drop enough bombs and it led to politics are thoroughly disgusting, such as with the Kach and Kahane Chai (now thankfully banned) that attempted to forbid Muslims from expressing their right to vote.

old comment by Vman

@hydrolythe

Indeed, I was referring primarily to what you call the anti-globalist left.

@hydrolythe

As for me, I think Israel was a bad idea. It took several terrorist attacks to make it and it taught to a whole generation of Arabs that they can get everything if they just drop enough bombs and it led to politics are thoroughly disgusting, such as with the Kach and Kahane Chai (now thankfully banned) that attempted to forbid Muslims from expressing their right to vote.

I don't think Arabs needed Israel to teach them terrorism. And while I do agree that Kach / Kahane Chai was disgusting, it was also a fringe phenomenon, never getting more than a single Knesset member and a whopping one percent of the vote before its banning. Besides, far-right parties are a feature of just about every state in the West too... and typically don't get banned there (though partly because their declared programs usually aren't quite as frankly insane as Kach's ;) ).

As for the establishment of Israel being a bad idea... perhaps it was. But again, that can be said for a number of other countries, yet they don't get nearly as many regular calls for their destruction or dismantlement. And while some of the negative consequences of its establishment could have been predicted had there been more will to do so, do keep in mind that historical perspectives are often far different than our modern ones: the people of the time did not have the same set of information, or a way to guess which of the possible outcomes would be the one that would come to pass.

old comment by SpukiKitty

ABOUT THE ISRAEL THING (MY THOUGHTS IN A NUTSHELL)....

* Criticizing how Israel does things does not make one an Anti-Hebrew. Even Jews (including Rabbis) criticizing what Israel does. Being a Pink Floyd fan, I can't stand how a lot of folks are like "Roger Waters is an Anti-Hebrew".

* This does not mean I support the acts of terrorism and IslamoFrummery from Palestinians. Even if the root of it is based on some legitimate grievances, blowing up innocent civilians minding their own business is not an answer and many of these bombers are of the Wahhabi variety (and would love to also destroy Israel's relatively modern, secular-friendly society).

* I still feel that Israel shouldn't be trashing the Palestinians, bombing Palestinians and destroying Palestinian property to illegally build settlements on Palestinian land.

* The founding of Israel shouldn't have been at the expense of Palestinians. Also; It would've been better if Anti-Hebrewism was simply stamped out everywhere BIG TIME so the Jews wouldn't NEED a "homeland".

* Why can't Israeli and Palestinians co-exist and mingle? It's not a hard thing to do! Many folks in more ethnically diverse, non-Wingnutty parts of the USA do it all the time! Land is land! It knows not bigotry or ethnicity! It's stupid dirt and stuff! Why limit a country to just one group?! It's primitive, tribal, outmoded, the stuff of a bygone more ignorant time! Rename the country The Holyland and have both groups be equal full citizens living together! The Holyland will be simultaneously the homeland of Israelis AND Palestinians. It would be Israel AND Palestine AT THE SAME TIME! SHARE, DAMMIT! SHARE!

* Sadly; I think all this hate and insanity is stoked by outside interests (as is a lot of turmoil in the Mid-East, Africa, parts of Asia and Latin America). Why else would the Imperialist Colonial Robber Barons of yore divide up these lands in arbitrary ways (neglecting the varying tribal issues), totally screw up at "Winning Hearts & Minds", pocket the money meant for rebuilding these areas post-war (or do a bad job at rebuilding), take over Palestine in a ham-fisted way (to establish Israel) with no input from the Palestinians themselves, etc? Otherwise educated businessmen, military people, cartographers, etc. can't possibly be this stupid....THIS WAS ON PURPOSE AND MEANT TO DIVIDE THE POPULACE, KEEP THEM AT A DISADVANTAGE AND HOG ALL OF THEIR NATURAL RESOURCES WHILE GIVING THEM THE FINGER FOR DRIVING THE COLONIALS OUT (in the case of Africa). A stable, peaceful, prosperous, harmonious Mid-East, Africa, etc. is not good business and the greedy, ethnicist, macho willy-waving shitheels aren't interested in peacefully ASKING for the natural resources and working with the people.

* Robber Barons and their Arms Dealer partners could get all the wealth they want peacefully by ASKING AND WORKING WITH the nations who have a needed Natural Resource. They could easily embrace Green Technology and go from being "Big Oil" to "Big Green". They could easily switch to selling or producing alternatives. However, they wont because they are EVIL, LAZY, GREEDY, MACHO, TESTOSTERONE-POISONED SADISTS WHO THINK IT'S FUN THE SEE THE WORLD BURN! Earning more money for their hottie-as-hell-high-class hookers, piles of cocaine and gold & jewel-encrusted-whatever isn't fun unless there's some stuff blowing up to provide entertainment.

* It's a natural impulse for the human species to find a "them" to hate....Let's point every one to the REAL "THEM" TO HATE....
image
....THE CORRUPT ROBBER BARON AND IT'S MILITARY-INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX!

NOTE: We must keep in mind that this is NOT about hating ALL rich people or wealthy CEOs. That would also be prejudice and there are plenty of 1% types who are actually decent people and a wealthy person with a decent heart could do a LOT of good for the world. Many are involved in genuine charitable work as well as Progressive Politics. Not all "Corporates" are the same.
* George Soros has always been involved in giving to Progressive causes and is even seen as a "bogeyman" by the Far-Right.
* Bill Gates....while he was a more unethical and questionable person in the past....has now become very involved in various charities and works that benefit the less-fortunate as well as fighting for reforms in government.
* Warren Buffett is another ludicrously wealthy guy who's all about Progressive reforms and who demands that his fellow 1-Percenters pay their fair share.
* Numerous celebrities who have heavily contributed to and supported numerous Progressive and humanitarian causes. Sure; SOME might be doing it "for show" but many are serious about bettering the world.
* Loathing should be for the Pre-Ghost Scrooges, not the Post-Ghost Scrooges.

....So; The loathing should be for BAD RICH PIGGIES not GOOD RICH PEOPLE! I also prefer comparing the Robber Barons to "pigs" ('Rich Piggies') rather than "cats" ('Fat Cats') because cats are noble and beautiful.

old comment by DarkPhoenix

As for the establishment of Israel being a bad idea... perhaps it was. But again, that can be said for a number of other countries, yet they don't get nearly as many regular calls for their destruction or dismantlement.

I wonder if this is largely because the country of Israel is an artificial construct that the by-and-large Christian Allies created simply because of the Bible (more specifically, the desire to fulfill Revelations, which requires the Jews to own Israel again)... To the Arabian nations, they literally just marched in, dropped these people off, and said (with force backing up the words) "These people now own this region. No questions." And as for the West... the Jews have been the go-to boogeymen of the West for centuries (again, largely because Christianity and its insistence of blaming the Jews for EVERYTHING, especially the Crucifixion). I can't say it's a shock to hear nuts claim that a whole country of them is pure evil...

dlo_3us2001 #fundie groups.yahoo.com

21 comments

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