Quote# 131575

[=Calvinisn vs Universalism; The Adam Ford edition=]

Man: I'll tell you one thing that honestly trips me up; the idea election. You know, that God chooses in advance who will be saved and who won't. I know it's biblical, but... I don't like it. It doesn't seem fair. Or right.

Woman: Yeah I've heard people say that before. So I've gotta ask; how would YOU do it, if you where God. What would you do that would seem right or fair ?

Man: Well I certainly wouldn't choose in advance who's in or who's out! I would give everyone an equal chance to be saved. I'd make it so that everyone who has ever lived had a chance to hear the gospel somehow in their lifetime. And everyone would have a fair, equal chance to make a choice without me deciding their fate before they are even born!

Woman: K...but being God would be omnesiant...all knowing...yes ?

Man: Well, yeah. Of course.

Woman: Then you'd aleesdy know someone's every persons eternal fate before you created them. So then, your act of creating them, knowing wether they go to Heaven or Hell is causative. See even within in your system, you would in fact be choosing everyone's eternal destiny in advance. Just by creating them.

Man: I guess the heart of the question is; why does God choose to save SOME people, but not OTHERS. Why doesn't he just save EVERYONE ?

Woman: I asked that question for a long time...but then I had a realization and it didn't come from some hard theological theory but from the basic gospel message I had known since forever ago. Kinda the ground floor of christianity is that we're all sinners. We all need a saviour. We all need Jeus and without him, we have no hope. Right ?

Man: Yeah.

Woman: And we need a saviour becaus we are all sinful and...we all deserve judgement for our sinfulness. Yes ?

Man: Of course.

Woman: We ALL deserve Hell. It's a tough thing to say, but admitting it is a crucial step in accepting Jesus' atoning sacrifice to save us from this terrible fate. So if every single one of us deserves God's judgement, we shouldn't get hung up on the question "Why doesn't God save everyone ?" The question that should really boggle our minds is this..."Why does God save ANYONE ?"

Adam Ford, Adam4D 18 Comments [9/12/2017 7:36:13 AM]
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How does Jesus's "sacrifice" to save everyone from sin equate to everyone deserving hell? If there are only a few chosen to go to heaven then why do you need a savior? If God has already chosen hell for you then why even waste your time worshipping it? It's just Nilihism mixed with a sprinkle of Jesus.

9/12/2017 7:42:17 AM

Salami

Once upon a time, a Unitarian-Universalist church near my high school allowed the school to use conference rooms in the church for classes to help alleviate the school's issue with having more students and classes than classrooms.

However, we once didn't have to go to class in the church for an entire morning because there was a bomb report there that once had to be investigate. My history teacher was baffled and said something along the lines of, "They tolerate and accept literally everybody so long as tolerance and acceptance are returned to them. I mean, its the only Christian religion I've heard of that's used the motto 'No God? No problem.' Who would hate them?"

Well, here you go history teacher. We found somebody who hates universalists.

I mean, I don't get Calvinism. If you're predestined to go to heaven or hell before you actually get to do anything, then what's the point of converting to Christianity? You'll get the same result whether you're Christian or not.

I guess it is relieving for some people? I remember my mom grew up in a Methodist house, but hated the religion because she was constantly being given the contradictory message of "You must always do good things to please God" and "Sinful humanity is inherently evil and none of us are worthy of God." It was really stressful for her, which eventually turned to irritation followed by apathy. Eventually she converted to Presbyterianism, the earliest form of Calvinism, because it took all the stress of appeasing a seemingly unappeasable god off her shoulders and put it in God's hands. Though even now she doesn't adhere to any rigid religious rituals and is maybe only slightly more religious than my dad, who believes that there's something out there somewhere but he doesn't know what and doesn't believe he needs to be concerned with it.

9/12/2017 8:11:58 AM

Kanna

You make the church seem such a welcoming, loving place...er...no, you make god sound like a big dick. I'm so glad I'm not stuck in that hell of your own making.

9/12/2017 8:29:38 AM

pyro

I mean, I don't get Calvinism. If you're predestined to go to heaven or hell before you actually get to do anything, then what's the point of converting to Christianity? You'll get the same result whether you're Christian or not.


I don't think it's a meaningful question. It's like asking why the FSTDT web app bothers crashing sometimes when it's destined to be changed to stop doing so. The Elect, in the same way, convert to Christianity because that's what they're programmed to do, and the Retrobate "crash" because that's what they're programmed to do.

9/12/2017 9:05:08 AM

Pharaoh Bastethotep

*looks at source*
Yet another terrible art style!
I think that "Adam" is more than one person.

9/12/2017 9:13:11 AM

DG

This only further convinces me that you believe in a capricious and probably evil god.

WHY do we all deserve hell? Because God says so? Why does God say so? Why does he have such strange and random concepts of sin?

Also "omnesiant" sounds like a new word for someone who has forgotten everything that it is possible to forget.

9/12/2017 9:22:57 AM

Salami

@pyro

Good point. Perhaps I should rephrase.

"What is the point of evangelizing and promoting Christianity if everybody who will ever be a good Christian will just convert on their own time?"

Is that better?

9/12/2017 9:24:20 AM

Nemo

Remember, atheists are a bunch of miserable nihilists who place no value on humans.

9/12/2017 9:27:49 AM

Denizen

Because he wants a slave race to serve as his choir service in heaven. The bible is very clear on this.

9/12/2017 9:50:38 AM

conscience

This did not make god seem good Adam

9/12/2017 10:07:26 AM

The Angry Dybbuk

I find this funny: Adam has too limited a view of omniscience. Such a being, having freed people to act as they choose, would likely see not merely one path through life for each person, but all the available avenues from least, to most, to least likely again. And while something omnipotent could close every path but one, why would it?

The end result of Calvinism is the conviction god is evil, or why make anyone at all who, knowing the alternatives, would choose eternal torture?

I think Calvinism is a drop-dead stupid concept, and that there's more to getting closer to a creator than merely believing that someone else died the death you deserved for the crime of being born human.

I love how people keep ignoring what actions, and not mere beliefs, are said to separate wheat from weed: Feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the prisoner, comforting the sick…and that doesn't even get into the Beatitudes – which a lot of bellowing asshole IFB preachers totally ignore (much as they ignore the character traits listed for those who would be leaders…although they never cease in reminding women that they oughtn't, and based on the same portions of the Bible they themselves ignore when they turn out uneducated screamers who start trying to preach in their fucking 20s. No humility at all to be seen in that: They should keep their mouths shut until they're learned, and at least 30.

Blessed are the meek; they'll inherit the Earth.

Are you meek, Adam Ford?

9/12/2017 10:21:29 AM

checkmate

Why doesn't he just save EVERYONE ?


Because he's an utter asshole, maybe?

I know it's biblical, but... I don't like it. It doesn't seem fair. Or right, but it's biblical, so, yes, he's an asshole.

9/12/2017 12:32:32 PM

Denizen

If Adam and Eve's sin was going to condemn countless generations to actions that would upset God and thus force him to send them to Hell, then why didn't God just kill Adam and Eve, or make them sterile? And then start over?

9/12/2017 1:05:50 PM

Anon-e-moose

How about the idea of elections...?:



[/"Doctor Who"]

Has your 'Emprah' repented of his sins, Adam Fnord?

As they say in that future society in "Demolition Man", 'What's your boggle?!'

9/12/2017 4:46:13 PM

Azereaux

Sounds like you didn't answer any of the criticism and said "well, that's how it is". Not to mention disregarding the idea of accepting ... well, anything really. After all, if you have no will, then your 'acceptance' is nothing more than part of the program, and there is nothing you can do anyway. Your version of God is a monster that simply chose to send people to eternal torment because they could.

Also, omniscience could be interpreted as knowing all possible outcomes of any situation, as opposed to knowing the preordained outcome that you set (which, when you think about it, is not omniscience any more than computer programming is). After all, there's nothing special about knowing the story you wrote will go the way you wrote it.

9/13/2017 6:54:45 AM

Psalmanazaar

But why did God create a race of creatures capable of experiencing suffering, all of whom deserve to go to hell? And don't give me that crap about the garden of eden, because God was omnipotent and omniscient then, too. Why even create a hell? Why create evil?

9/13/2017 3:56:23 PM

Philbert McAdamia

Woman: K...but being God would be omnesiant...all knowing...yes ?

God listens to Eraserhead?

Omnesia
Ligaw na bala mula sa sulok ng mata'Di maala
buhay nang wala pa sya
Higop ng kanyang halik ay lagi nang bumabalik
Utak ay parang nasirang plakaPa ulit-ulit lng ang pagdurusa
Burahin mo na ang alalala Mas mabuti pang magka . . .
Lubak sa langit pumipitik, pumipikit
Ayaw lumapit; maghanap ng kapalit


Or words to that effect. Maybe it's in Tongues.
Woman may have written this, by her attempt at spelling English.
Or is God an Amnesiac and forgets shit, like everything?

9/13/2017 4:20:25 PM

Keith

"Man: Why doesn't he just save EVERYONE ?

Woman: we're all sinners. We all need a saviour."

Um, that's not an answer. Okay, say that the system is set up that we all need a savior. Why did God set up the system that way? Why not give every one of his children everything they needed to get into Paradise?

When I believed in Hell, I tended to figure it was the last test. Could you enjoy Heaven if you know someone, anyone, was suffering in Hell? Wouldn't the Truly Christain thing to do be to offer to take someone's place in the fire? If I had achieved salvation, how could I appreciate it if some child was burning simply because her parents hadn't taught her about Jesus?
That was my intention, to offer my self in someone's place. Because if people really WERE suffering eternal torture for finite sins, I didn't want to be in Heaven, anyway.

Sharing this idea with the Faithful... MAN, they reacted badly. They couldn't tolerate the idea that maybe some people could be in Hell that didn't really deserve it, not with any sort of humane evaluation.

The ranting they threw at me for this suggestion spurred me on towards my eventual apostasy...

9/14/2017 12:58:10 PM

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