Quote# 142236

Why I reject the label cis

It’s not because I don’t understand it. It’s not because I don’t know that cis is just “not trans”. I get that. I understand that these prefixes are used all throughout varying branches of science.

Why I reject being called cis is because I reject the idea that “woman” is an umbrella that both “cis” and “trans” fall equally under. That we are each just subgroups of women. Two different types of the same thing. No.

We are women. You are imitations of women. You call yourselves trans and us cis but really you are just men and we are just women.

i-am-less-angry-now, /r/GenderCritical 16 Comments [2/1/2019 3:16:22 AM]
Fundie Index: 3
Submitted By: pyro

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Happy Atheist

But then surely you think transmen are women. Thus cis would distinguish you from a trans group that you believe are very much women, but not cis.

2/1/2019 5:03:34 AM

Skide

Yeah, it's so cute that you think you get to decide these things. Now scram, adults are talking.

2/1/2019 6:05:37 AM

Kanna

i-am-less-smart-now, having read this.

2/1/2019 1:13:03 PM

splup

@Happy Atheist

How do you mean? Wouldn't she still call them women?

@Skide

I think she is very aware that she doesn't get to decide what a woman is, that's why they are so angry at men. Look, it's true that a lot of these women hate men, and I have little respect for them, but that doesn't mean they are wrong about every single thing. It's dangerous to dismiss everything just because it comes from terfs.

How do you all define a woman? Wouldn't you at least agree that a trans woman is more similar to a man than a woman? And vice versa.

2/2/2019 7:24:09 AM

Skide

@splup

No, I most definitely wouldn't. What we are is our brains, the rest is merely a bunch of support systems plus some surplus dangling bits here and there. If someone's brain gender matches something, they ARE that, it's that simple.

As far as TERFs are concerned there is not a single thing they get right, the transfolks are merely their most visible target. They are very much like incels on the male side, somehow, amazingly wrong about every single little thing in their creed. Show me one that's critical against her own "gender criticism" and I'll show you a flying pig.

2/2/2019 9:32:16 AM

Chloe

And I disagree with you.

2/2/2019 4:21:54 PM

Zinnia

Near as I can tell, the proto-TERFs were radfems who took on the view that gender isn't based on the physical body, but on childhood social experiences. And if you didn't grow up as a middle-class white woman with a functioning uterus, then you could never understand what it really means to be a woman. So the proto-TERFs who also happened to be straight kind of forced themselves into platonic relationships with other women in on the theory that men were dangerous because they dominated the power structures and would never be able to connect with women on any meaningful level. And some (not all) of those who were lesbians or bi got kind of rapey, due to not understanding why any woman would want to be with a man when she could have... them.

Then they discovered poor women, nonwhite women, and trans/nonbinary/intersex people, and went insane.

2/3/2019 5:10:38 AM

pyro

How do you all define a woman?

Whether /r/GenderCritical is "right about what a woman is" isn't answerable, because it's a pure definition argument. The question of transwomen being predatory men with fetishes, however, is definitely answerable: not usually, no.

Wouldn't you at least agree that a trans woman is more similar to a cis man than a cis woman? And vice versa.

No. The real answer is "the question isn't specific enough, please specify exactly what you're trying to compare here," but since nuance tends to get lost in charged political discussions like this, I'm going with "no."

2/3/2019 1:01:48 PM

Spluppers

@Skide

I really don't have a lot of respect for them so I'm not going to go out of my way to find things they are right about. I think probably the majority of them hate men because they've been hurt or they can't accept their own shortcomings.

But aren't the brains part of the of the bodies? I know I'm not just a brain. I would not be capable of any coherent thought even, without my body, I'd have gone insane or never even learned anything, or exist in some sort of serene blankness. You can sat that if someone's brain matches a certain gender then they are that gender, although I don't think anyone has even defined what a brain gender is. And even if it's true, it seems terfs are mostly focused on sex, which would include the body. To me it's reasonable that if we have laws differentiating based on sex, then those laws take the body into account as well. In fact it doesn't make sense to me to write laws based on people's gender, at least not without more knowledge.

I personally think of trans women as women, but that's because my idea of woman is different than theirs. And then that implies there are radically different categories of women.

I don't care if they're critical of their own criticism, I don't really expect most people to be.

What is your definition of brain gender and is it different from gender in general, or sex?

2/3/2019 3:30:49 PM

Spluppers

@Zinnia

Yeah, a lot of them are nutters who believe in all or some of those things. In many cases they're definitely similar to incels or MGTOW's in that their attitude to the opposite sex is broken. I definitely disagree with them that men can't understand what it is to be a woman.

I haven't seen much classism though, tbh. A decent portion of them seem to be radical leftists, actually.

I remember one time one them was saying fellatio is disgusting and fundamentally wrong, and that actually got somewhat more criticized than approved of, if I recall correctly. They definitely have an unhealthy view of men though. And also trans women. I think it's skewed by them mostly linking each other the worst possible examples. I also think many of them feel threatened by the idea of trans women passing. As far as I can tell, many literally fear they will be replaced as a class by trans women.

@pyro

The whole debate just seems meaningless to me if people aren't willing to define what a woman or a man is. At least they are willing to do that.

So you say a trans woman is more similar to a cis woman than a cis man? That's fair enough, I don't think I agree though. As far as I can tell that is not true for their bodies, or for their socialization. This is especially true if we can assume that most trans women still do not undergo any SRS or hormone treatment. Then there's the brain. That is difficult to determine, you are right. But my current understanding is that there's a lot of overlap, like you wrote somewhere. So brain gender doesn't seem to correlate that well with sex, if that is true.

Look, bigots on the right say trans women are not women to invalidate their feelings or decisions. But I don't think it's inherently wrong to question whether someone is a woman or not.

In your reply you quoted my post and inserted the cis prefixes before man and woman. I'm perfectly happy to use them. But in assuming and specifying that I meant a cis man, are you not implicitly making a difference between cis and trans men or women?

2/3/2019 4:07:35 PM

Skide

@Spluppers

Yeah, obviously it goes with the definitions. Our brains are where our conciousness ultimately resides, so it's what you "are" with the rest of the body basically serving to support your existence, that's basically nomenclaure and how you describe it. For the record, I choose to believe(in the absence of sufficient evidence both for it and to the contrary) the certain minute physical differences between male and female brains corelate with the gender identity the brain displays. Which is also what I'd call brain gender or rather brain sex if you will.

Now, if we define sex as the overall sum of both how your brain expresses itself and your outside and inside bodily characteristics, then I still believe that the identity the brain expresses, overrides all other physical features. When it comes to the laws, they again should be built around prioritizing the identity over everything else. They should not be based on the outside physical characteristics, I'll freely admit to that. So no, I'm very much not okay with the laws including bodies into this discussion.

Sorry guys but both you and pyro seem to have a very convinient, detached convo over the very existence and nature of myself and folks like me. I'm not specially happy for you guys to discuss "what" I am like it's some particularly interesting looking fish. I'm female, not some half and half mash up, not some other specific descriptor, just female. Yes, I have a particularly strong identity and yes I resent being treated as someone's curio. I cannot say for anyone but me and a couple other folks I know but this identity is definitely not a social construct.

2/3/2019 7:30:22 PM

Vman

@Spluppers etc.

This is a topic that would best be discussed in private between folks who are willing. Publicly digging through people's deeply-held identities - particularly, identities whose legitimacy is challenged on a daily basis in a brutal manner - is not likely to be productive, and is definitely going to cause a great deal of unease.
So I'm going to have to ask you to either take it to a different channel (Discord, mail, etc.), or to drop the issue.

I hope you'll understand.

2/4/2019 7:37:52 AM

Spluppers

I'll respond to the other points later but I just want to put something here real quick because I'm already late and there's no notifications on this site as far as I know, so things tend to get buried.

@Skide

"Sorry guys but both you and pyro seem to have a very convinient, detached convo over the very existence and nature of myself and folks like me. I'm not specially happy for you guys to discuss "what" I am like it's some particularly interesting looking fish. I'm female, not some half and half mash up, not some other specific descriptor, just female. Yes, I have a particularly strong identity and yes I resent being treated as someone's curio. I cannot say for anyone but me and a couple other folks I know but this identity is definitely not a social construct."

You're just words on the internet to me. I don't know you or your sex or gender. I don't know if they are the same as mine, or different. Even if they are different, it seems too entitled that you'd object to this discussion. Personally I don't think the social is really separate from the biological, though.


@Vman

I think it's an important issue, and I consider myself an ally to transgender people, at the least. Possibly I understand you, but I don't agree with you. I also think unease can be good. Who are you suggesting I should talk to in private?

2/8/2019 12:00:28 AM

hydrolythe

@Skide

If I'm not mistaken your view of the mind is Cartesian dualism. You believe that we have a mind completely detached from any experience of the body we might have. There is an interesting Wikipedia article about it, but it's rather complex, so I'll link you instead to two video's to show you what it is and why you're wrong.

2/8/2019 4:03:33 AM

Skidie

@hydrolythe

You are mistaken. I don't believe the sentience is completely separate from the physical(FFS it's formed in the brain which is physical organ), for the record.

@Spluppers

V suggested we might take it on the channel where it's much easier to have it for one. Otherwise you seem to say that social laws should be build around physicals of a person, I strongly disagree there.

2/8/2019 10:54:18 AM

hydrolythe

@Skidie

My mistake for misrepresenting you. Do you defend any theory of mind?

2/8/2019 1:48:57 PM

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