jdcord #fundie

jdcord #fundie godplace.com

As I have said on many occasions, and even preached on a few occasions: I don't "believe" in God. I know him. And trust me, that distinction makes all the difference in the world. No person, and no argument - no matter how "rational" it may seem - will ever convince me that God doesn't exist. I mean, you might as well try and convince me that my wife doesn't exist! Of course she does! I don't "believe" that my wife exists. I know her! And likewise I don't "believe" that God exists. I know him!

A real, honest-to-goodness, intimate "relationship" with God is the one, sure-fire, guaranteed, stone-cold-lock way of making atheism seem like the absolute silliest thing you've ever heard.

And please forgive me, because I am not trying to put down the other JD, or anything they've posted. I guess I've just always marveled at how anyone who has truly "known" God can ever get to a point where they so much as even just consider atheism as anything even remotely approaching a possible, or viable idea. It would be like my suddenly - and seriously, no less - considering as even a possibility the idea that Katie (my wife) not only doesn't exist now, but has NEVER actually existed at all! I mean, I was just with her last night. Of course she exists!

66 comments

old comment by Flatworm

Imagine I were to tell you that I personally knew and had a relationship with, say, Jessica Biel.

Now, I might not strike you as the sort of guy who regularly mixes with Hollywood stars, so I imagine you might be skeptical. "If you know her", you might say, "introduce me to her."

So I take you to a place strewn with Jessica Biel posters, magazine articles, and merchandise. There are also Jessica Biel fans packed wall-to-wall, all talking about nothing other than Jessica Biel. However, you can't help but notice that the woman herself is not there. "I thought you were going to introduce me," you say. "I did, these people and these things can help you get to know Jessica Biel."

"Have you ever actually seen Jessica Biel in person?" you ask. "No, but I really feel that I know her," I answer.

By now, if you're anywhere near sane, you will be thoroughly convinced that I do not in fact, have a personal relationship with Jessica Biel. You're probably also beginning to doubt my very sanity, and I wouldn't blame you.

Why should we treat claims of a personal relationship with God with any less skepticism, especially given that we can certainly prove the existence of Jessica Biel?

old comment by Brain_In_A_Jar

Well, I have never personally known your god or any other, and not for want of trying. Every once in a while, one of you creepy fuckers says something along the lines of "just make yourself available, and he will make himself known to you". Well, it would be hypocritical of me not to employ rational empiricism myself, so in the spirit of scientific investigation I did just that - cleared my mind, made myself receptive to any supernatural forces that might be passing, that sort of thing.

You know what?

Nothing happened.

By your own damn standards, then, the god you describe does not exist. (It's nice to know that the absence of mysterious voices also counts against any chance of my being insane, too!)

old comment by Papabear

"As I have said on many occasions, and even preached on a few occasions: I don't "believe" in God. I know him. And trust me, that distinction makes all the difference in the world. No person, and no argument - no matter how "rational" it may seem - will ever convince me that God doesn't exist. I mean, you might as well try and convince me that my wife doesn't exist! Of course she does! I don't "believe" that my wife exists. I know her! And likewise I don't "believe" that God exists. I know him!"

You know God? Introduce me. No, I don't me give my a booklet and preach to me about "finding God." I mean, let's go have lunch with God. No? Don't really know him, I guess.

People can see, touch, hear and interact with your wife. God? No.

"A real, honest-to-goodness, intimate "relationship" with God is the one, sure-fire, guaranteed, stone-cold-lock way of making atheism seem like the absolute silliest thing you've ever heard."

Delusions can make rational thinkling sound silly. That's one way we can tell they are delusions.

"I guess I've just always marveled at how anyone who has truly "known" God can ever get to a point where they so much as even just consider atheism as anything even remotely approaching a possible, or viable idea."

When one breaks free of the delusion that one HAS truly known God, atheism becomes a very viable idea.

old comment by p3x987

It's not that God doesn't want Athiests, Atheists don't want God. Jesus would welcome any of you who sincerely asks him to forgive your sins and come into your heart.
You have to invite the Holy Spirit of God and Jesus into your heart. He will not come to you without being invited.

Rev 3:20 "20": Behold, I stand at the door, and knock:(At the door of your heart) if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. (Ask to be filled with the Holy Spirit of God and Jesus and then you will KNOW that he exists.)

Jesus does not reveal himself to anyone who does not take that first step of asking him into their heart. That's why none of you can be "sure" if he exists or not. And why any Christian who has done this already can assure you that God and Jesus are REAL.

An Athiest is a "Doubting Thomas". Thomas needed to see Jesus to believe in him.
John 20:29 - Jesus said unto him, Thomas because you have seen me, you have believed: Blessed are those that have not seen and yet have believed.

Jesus already came to earth physically to "prove" who he is and all of that was written in a book, the Bible. Now we are required to take a "leap of faith".
Jesus loves you right now, just as you are, even if you don't love him.

old comment by Illuminatalie

"And why any Christian who has done this already can assure you that God and Jesus are REAL."
Obviously, lots of Christians have done this already and THEN realized they were deluding themselves with a big game of pretend. The reason they can assure you they are real, is that they are brainwashed, they were too mentally weak to withstand what enslaved them. And the reason they chose 'Jesus' and not 'Allah' was because of where they were born and what religion their parent had, not because they realized (i.e. had a strong FEELING) how real Allah was or how real Jesus was. And don't bother with your scare tactics. Pascal's Wager gets a lot less convincing when you get it from multiple religions.

"Blessed are those that have not seen and yet have believed."
It's good to believe something that you have no experience or knowledge about? Or more exactly, those that do not consult with reality about their beliefs, are somehow 'morally better'? Funny how history (and my personal experience, certainly) shows different.

old comment by El Guapo

Many people claim to "really know God" and have a relationship with him. However, these people so rarely agree on what God is like, that even saying that God exists makes little sense. Muslims, Jews, Fundies, Catholics, Mormons, Protestants of every stripe, Unitarians, etc. all have members that claim such an intimate relationship with God and special knowledge of his nature. Why no consensus? Is God lying to some of them?

I support the right of anyone to believe anything that they want to, rationally justified or not. However, confronted with those beliefs as statements of fact, such as "I don't "believe" in God. I know him.", there are only two conclusions that I can reach.
1. jdcord is lying.
2. jdcord is irrational.

This goes for anyone making similar claims.

I think that sometimes people claim agnosticism rather than atheism, because we all know and love someone who believes that they have a special relationship with the Almighty. Who wants to accuse a loved one of being irrational or a liar? From my point of view, it is meaningless to ascribe belief to a thing that is unknowable by its very nature, or to even claim that the jury is out on such a thing. When you (jdcord) say that God exists, you have some (possibly ill-defined) concept of what that means and it is likely a very different concept from that of a fundamentalist Muslim or a Unitarian. To me, your declaration of belief means as much as if you said, "Ghkloojf exists". So when I say that I am an atheist, I mean that without a clear concept of who God is, and what His existence entails, I can't even address the concept of God in terms of belief. And also, unlike an agnostic, I think that time spent searching for the meaning of God is ill-spent.

Although, apparently I don't believe that an extended ramble on some internet forum represents time ill-spent.

I better get back to work.

old comment by

P3x987, what you're saying is not only stupid, it contradicts theology, at least traditional one. What St Thomas didn't believe was in Jesus's resurrection. But that Jesus existed, or had existed, was out of question for him. I could say the same about my grandfather(he died 12 years ago).I can asure you that he existed. Second, supposedly Jesus came to earth to manifest himself. So, why do we have to ask him to come in?, WTF?. Are you seriously telling me that God is like, say, Georges Bush(in the same way as jdcord)?. What you're saying is so vague, that it can apply to any prophet, god or religious leader. But in all earnest, you don't have a relationship with God. God is not your buddy or your friend and the statements you make are so vague and empty that it looks as if you were talking with your imaginary friend. And honestly, that's not being religious. It's being childish.

old comment by Brain_In_A_Jar

An Athiest is a "Doubting Thomas". Thomas needed to see Jesus to believe in him.
John 20:29 - Jesus said unto him, Thomas because you have seen me, you have believed: Blessed are those that have not seen and yet have believed.

According to your little story, Thomas demanded physical evidence of Jesus' resurrection, tangible nail holes and all, and Jesus gladly gave him such evidence. Nowhere does it say he was rebuked by anyone for demanding empirical evidence.

Why, then, should anyone else today be condmened for failing to believe without empirical evidence, when even one of the disciples himself was not?

Jesus does not reveal himself to anyone who does not take that first step of asking him into their heart. That's why none of you can be "sure" if he exists or not. And why any Christian who has done this already can assure you that God and Jesus are REAL.

As you may have seen in my earlier post, in the interest of rational inquiry I took that first step you describe, on several different occasions. Nothing fucking happened. You have proposed an experimental method, I have performed it precisely and repeatedly, and always obtained a total negative result. We can thus be as sure as it is possible to be that the supernatural entity you call Jesus does not exist. You lose.

old comment by Dr. Shrinker

Here we see why the aggressively modern notion that is Christian fundamentalism is, in fact, bad Christianity. For centuries Christianity has relied on faith as its primary focus. The fundamentalist, however, cannot abide the idea of faith: it seems weak and ephemeral. So, the fundamentalists twists science and historical research the "prove" the existence of the Christian god. When they are too ignorant to even do this, they simply declare their "personal relationship" with said god to be proof.

The problem here is that if one has proof, one has no need for faith. However, faith is the long recognized essence of Christianity. The fundamentalist seeks to make faith obsolete, and in doing so reduces Christianity to a sham.

Proof of God, sir? One has to wonder whom you are really trying to convince.