werewolf

How could Jesus quote the Bible (any version) when the Bible did not, as yet, exist?

10/21/2009 10:33:06 PM

Ajax

"Even when a civilization mentioned has not been heard of before, archaeology eventually finds evidence that it really did exist."

According to modern scholars the Jews were Canaanites that chose to follow just one creator God from the pantheon(that's why earlier passages that tell people not to have Gods before him are worded as though these other Gods actually exist) and then gradually grew to disbelieve in the other Gods existance.

Then this sect of Canaanism took over, but only half. Phoenicia stayed independent.

That's not what the Bible says. 1 for Science. 0 for the Bible.

10/21/2009 10:51:08 PM

Nowonmai

Circular logic at it's best

10/21/2009 10:53:46 PM

aaa

Yawn.

10/21/2009 11:11:28 PM

El Zorro

I know this is aimed towards kids, but come on AiG. Did you have to teach them shitty arguments from day one?

10/22/2009 12:18:58 AM

Clown

Logic... A simple thing and you are doing it wrong.

10/22/2009 12:57:03 AM

WMDKitty

Okay, I just snorted snot all over my keyboard thanks to "point" #2.

10/22/2009 1:03:40 AM

Freethink

Where is the circular reasoning diagram when you need it?

Of course, if it's in the bible, it must be true because it's in the bible and the bible is true, because the bible says so...

Therefore if the bible says so..... Etc.,etc.,etc., etc.! OUCH! I think I just got mental whiplash from this.

10/22/2009 1:14:16 AM

Eden

The Bible claims to be the Word of God. 2 Timothy 3:16 states that every word of Scripture is inspired by God. 2 Peter 1:21 says that men of God wrote as they were “driven along” by the Holy Spirit

Cool,
so if I write a long book and use the prase "this is gods written word" repeatedly in it, this makes ut the true word of god?

The Bible shows itself to be the Word of God. Every time there is a scientific or historical fact mentioned in the Bible, it has been shown to be true (the earth is round, currents in the sea, the prevailing winds, etc.). Even when a civilization mentioned has not been heard of before, archaeology eventually finds evidence that it really did exist.

Where is the high mountain from which you can see all kingdoms of the world, the one where Satan took Jesus? (if earth were flat it could exist, but earth is round, making it impossible for such a mountain to exist ;) )
Can you repeat the experiment where you get spotted cattle by letting their (single coloured) parents copulate in front of a through with streaked rods?
Where are the pillars of heaven that are mentioned within the bible (they would only make senseif heaven were a domeabove a flat earth, which is what people at biblical times believed)

Jesus Christ quoted from the Bible and believed it to be true. Jesus used the Bible when He was being tempted by Satan. He also quoted the Bible numerous times and stated that He was fulfilling Scripture.

This doesn´t prove anything. Especially if we assume that Jesus is an invention (or if we assume that the accounts of the 4 gospels are a mix of true and false elements about Jesus)

Many Bible prophecies have already been fulfilled. There are thousands of prophecies in the Bible that have come true. Jesus Himself fulfilled over 600 through His life, death, and resurrection. Because so many prophecies in the Bible have already come true, we can trust that the rest will be fulfilled in the future.

Lets see...
if I wanted to write a book about the life of a prophet I never met in person (as he has allegedly been dead for decades), but which my parish follows and about whom several verbally transmitted stories exist, and at the same time wanted to claim that this prophet is the messias, what would I do?
Answer:
I would search the Tanach for prophecies about the "coming messias" and would write my stories about my prophet in a way, that my prophet fulfills all of these prophecies. Of course itcould be that I make mistakes, for example by ascribing prophecies to him, that weren´t really meant to be prophecies about the messias (like for example a "virgin birth" which was really meant by the author of the passage to be the birth of a child by a young woman (and belongs to a long "fulfilled" prophecy, not to one about the messias)

If the Bible is not true, then we have no basis for claiming we have been saved from our sins. It is only because of the Bible that we can say our sins have been forgiven. If we trust the Bible for our salvation, we must trust everything it says. Otherwise, we are picking and choosing only what we want to believe.


Exactly, you have no basis for claiming that you have been saved from your sins. The sooner you accept it, the sooner you get free.

Oh and before I forget it:
Every word I just wrote is inspired by god. (Eden 1:8)

10/22/2009 1:42:05 AM

LDM

"* The Bible claims to be the Word of God. 2 Timothy 3:16 states that every word of Scripture is inspired by God. 2 Peter 1:21 says that men of God wrote as they were “driven along” by the Holy Spirit."

And Interview With a Vampire claims to be the word of Louis de Pointe du Lac.

"* The Bible shows itself to be the Word of God. Every time there is a scientific or historical fact mentioned in the Bible, it has been shown to be true (the earth is round, currents in the sea, the prevailing winds, etc.). Even when a civilization mentioned has not been heard of before, archaeology eventually finds evidence that it really did exist."

And where's the proof that a woman was really turned into a pillar of salt, or an angel really came down from heaven and impregnated a teenage girl?

"* Jesus Christ quoted from the Bible and believed it to be true. Jesus used the Bible when He was being tempted by Satan. He also quoted the Bible numerous times and stated that He was fulfilling Scripture."

*facepalm*

"* Many Bible prophecies have already been fulfilled. There are thousands of prophecies in the Bible that have come true. Jesus Himself fulfilled over 600 through His life, death, and resurrection. Because so many prophecies in the Bible have already come true, we can trust that the rest will be fulfilled in the future."

So does Nostradamus. Why aren't you worshipping him?

"* If the Bible is not true, then we have no basis for claiming we have been saved from our sins. It is only because of the Bible that we can say our sins have been forgiven. If we trust the Bible for our salvation, we must trust everything it says. Otherwise, we are picking and choosing only what we want to believe."

I see nothing wrong with picking and choosing what we want to believe. After all a Christian rejects Islam and vice-versa. Isn't that picking and choosing in and of itself? If you're in a buffet line and you choose cauliflower but reject mushrooms, aren't you picking and choosing? If you go to Hawaii and choose to sight-see, but reject to go surfing, you're picking and choosing there. Making choices is a part of life. Everyone does it every day.

I believe it's wrong to lie, cheat, steal and kill. I don't believe it's wrong to allow people to live their lives the way they see fit. And I don't need a 2000 year old book that constantly contradicts itself to tell me why.

10/22/2009 3:14:07 AM

Dexter

Otherwise, we are picking and choosing only what we want to believe.

This is exactly what fundies do. They pick and choose.

10/22/2009 3:46:01 AM

The L

Know what time it is, kids?

That's right! It's point-by-point refutation time! :D

1. Any book can claim to be the word of God. I can get a volume of Grimm's fairy tales and write at the end, "by the way, this is totally all true, God said so." That doesn't change the fact that Grimm's tales are still fiction.

2. Actually, the Bible says that the earth is a flat disc that floats on the ocean and has a literal, physical dome on top (the "firmament" or sky). What actually happens is that when new scientific discoveries are made, the Bible is re-interpreted in light of those discoveries. It's like how we think of Atlas holding up the world--when in the myths, he actually held up the dome of the sky.

3. The Gospels were written between 30 and 100 years AFTER the last events written in them. It is perfectly possible that they don't remember what Jesus said exactly, so they simply put in Scripture where it seemed appropriate. Also, since other heroes of the time were said to have fulfilled prophecies, the Gospel writers went quote-mining for anything remotely resembling the Jesus story in the Old Testament.

4. Most of those Bible prophecies are either very vague (yes, Jesus said the Temple would be destroyed, but he never specifically said when or by whom) or completely misquoted/taken out of context (like the infamous "Emmanuel" passage from Isaiah, which is NOT a Messianic prophecy). I can easily say "it will rain soon," meaning "soon today," and since I never actually said the day I can still call myself right a week from now when it finally rains.

5. Faith, by its very nature, has no recourse to evidence, and doesn't really need it anyway. If you believe in salvation, you don't need a book to tell you that you believe in salvation. Besides, the Bible contradicts itself so many times, that you're pretty much FORCED to "pick and choose" which passages are valid. This is why some Christians believe that gay people should be treated like everybody else, and others believe that gay people should be brutally killed. You're cherry-picking your beliefs, whether you read the Bible or not.

Myth: Bibliolatry. Status: BUSTED!!

@werewolf: While there was no official Biblical canon, the Jews did in fact have the Torah and various other books that were considered important (much as the Muslims refer for spiritual guidance to the Koran and to other books written by spiritual leaders). So, technically, Jesus was quoting Hebrew scripture. It just hadn't been canonized as "the Bible" yet.

10/22/2009 4:28:08 AM

DarkfireTaimatsu

*Pretty much all fictional books present themselves as "true" within the confines of their fictional reality. I can specifically name the Animorphs series that frequently told the reader that the events in the book were really happening.

*Harry Potter mentions London, which is a real place. Therefore, Harry Potter is true.

*Fictional characters can be written to quote anything they choose.

*"Prophecies" are so vague that I could fulfill several without leaving the house.

*If the bible isn't true, there are no sins you need to be "saved" from, rendering this point useless.

10/22/2009 4:56:16 AM

Shann

So Jesus quoted a text that was written many years after his own execution?

Historical revision...you does it.

10/22/2009 5:12:50 AM

Muslims actually do the same with the Koran and Hindus with the Rig Vedas. What does it make you special?. I don't know any sacred book which states that what it contains is crap.

10/22/2009 5:13:47 AM

Mister Spak

"* If the Bible is not true, then we have no basis for claiming we have been saved from our sins. "

You're starting to catch on. Only the Koran can save you from your sins.

10/22/2009 5:21:04 AM

Doubting Thomas

I've seen a cue ball that wasn't this circular.

10/22/2009 6:49:09 AM

Caustic Gnostic

Gandalf prophesied that Sauron would be destroyed if the Ring were unmade. Elrond prophesied that all the Eldar would be gone from Middle-earth if that happened.

It happened!

10/22/2009 7:11:37 AM

John

The Bible claims to be the Word of God.

"Gulliver's Travels" claims to have been written by Lemuel Gulliver. It even gives a brief biography. Do we accept that as true?

Every time there is a scientific or historical fact mentioned in the Bible, it has been shown to be true.

Nonsense. Every time there is a scientific or historical fact mentioned in the Bible, someone invents some ad hoc far-fetched connection between them or explains away the discrepancy.

From the skeptic's Dictionary: "An ad hoc hypothesis is one created to explain away facts that seem to refute one’s belief or theory. Ad hoc hypotheses are common ... in the work of pseudoscientists."

10/22/2009 7:30:33 AM

Paradox

The Bible is perfect because the Bible says it is perfect. And we know that the Bible is right when it says that it is perfect because it is perfect, and thus correct.

10/22/2009 7:32:30 AM

Papabear

If you'll chech out the Bible story of Jesus quoting from the Bible, you'll find that the supposedly perfect Jesus, co-equal and part of God the father, gets it wrong.


Please cite the "thousands of prophecies in the Bible that have come true."

10/22/2009 7:42:37 AM

Anon-e-moose

"There are many reasons we believe the Bible and all that it contains:"

There are many reasons why we Atheists don't believe the Bible, and all it contains. But they can be condensed down to just one:

It's all a load of bollocks.

After all:

'Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for Atheism ever conceived'

-Isaac Asimov

Have you tried reading your Bible properly, AIG?

10/22/2009 8:00:34 AM

Zeus Almighty

"The Bible claims to be the Word of God."

Ditto the Koran, the Torah and numerous other non-christian writings.
Guess what, they're all bullshit.

"There are many reasons we believe the Bible and all that it contains:"

Yeah, because we've definitely confirmed that the Earth rests on pillars, just like the Bible says.
Oh, wait ...

10/22/2009 8:24:32 AM

moose

Most has been covered, but I thought I would add a couple of points.
The babble and quotes of jeebus were about the old testament. Jeebus didnt quote anything in the new testament, ti wasnt written yet. And the remarks in letters (epistles, etc) in the new testament are clear that they are not refering to themselves (the letters themselves) but are refering to scripture as being what was written in the old testament.
Oh...and jeebus also quoted stuff that is NOWHERE in the old testament even though he reference the saying to such.

10/22/2009 9:21:50 AM

Dr. Novakaine

* The Bible claims to be the Word of God. 2 Timothy 3:16 states that every word of Scripture is inspired by God. 2 Peter 1:21 says that men of God wrote as they were “driven along” by the Holy Spirit.

...I'm supposed to take the BOOK'S word that the book is true? If I write a work of fiction, and in the book make claims that the book is true, does that automatically make it true? If so, I'm totally writing dragons into existence.


* The Bible shows itself to be the Word of God. Every time there is a scientific or historical fact mentioned in the Bible, it has been shown to be true (the earth is round, currents in the sea, the prevailing winds, etc.). Even when a civilization mentioned has not been heard of before, archaeology eventually finds evidence that it really did exist.

Yes, far be it from the bible to describe civilizations that EXIST AT THE TIME OF ITS WRITING. Jesus christ. And all hose observations you talk about? They were common knowledge back then. Yes, even the earth being round. By the way, flat earthers have used the bible to try to justify their beliefs, as well. What say you to that?


* Jesus Christ quoted from the Bible and believed it to be true. Jesus used the Bible when He was being tempted by Satan. He also quoted the Bible numerous times and stated that He was fulfilling Scripture.

Did you confirm this with Jesus personally? Because, you know, I could write a book saying that George W. Bush started war with Iraq because Saddam Hussein refused to buy him a hot dog, and write in the book lots of supposed things he said to support this, but that doesn't mean any of it actually happened.


* Many Bible prophecies have already been fulfilled. There are thousands of prophecies in the Bible that have come true. Jesus Himself fulfilled over 600 through His life, death, and resurrection. Because so many prophecies in the Bible have already come true, we can trust that the rest will be fulfilled in the future.

Citation needed.


* If the Bible is not true, then we have no basis for claiming we have been saved from our sins. It is only because of the Bible that we can say our sins have been forgiven. If we trust the Bible for our salvation, we must trust everything it says. Otherwise, we are picking and choosing only what we want to believe.

A, you already do pick and choose what you want to believe. B, the basis for claiming you have been saved is entirely up to your religion, because IT'S YOUR GODDAMN RELIGION. You get to choose what you want to do with it. When are you going to get that you don't need a thousand-year-old storybook to have a religion? L. Ron Hubbard pulled one out of his ass in a few years.

10/22/2009 9:38:37 AM