Quote# 73399

Christian theology is preferentially selected by the known laws of physics (i.e., the Second Law of Thermodynamics, general relativity, quantum mechanics, and the Standard Model of particle physics) due to the fundamentally triune structure of the Omega Point cosmology and due to existence having come into being a finite time in the past (i.e., the traditional theological position of creatio ex nihilo).

Moreover, the Standard Model of particle physics provides the mechanism by which the miracles recorded in the New Testament could be achieved without violating any known laws of physics, even if one were to assume that we currently don't exist on a level of implementation in a computer simulation (in that case, then such miracles would be trivially easy to perform for the society running the simulation, even though it would seem amazing from our perspective). This process uses baryon annihilation, and its inverse, via electroweak quantum tunneling controlled by the cosmological end state of the Omega Point (since in physics it's just as accurate to say that causation goes from future to past events: viz., the principle of least action; and unitarity). If the coming of Jesus Christ and the miracles that He performed were necessary in order to lead to the Omega Point, then the probability of said event occuring is exactly 1: certain to happen.

Traditional Christian theology has maintained that God never violates natural law, as God, in His omniscience, knew in the beginning all that He wanted to achieve and so, in His omnipotence, He formed the laws of physics in order to achieve His goal. The idea that God would violate His own laws would mean that God is not omniscient. In traditional Christian theology, miracles do not violate natural law--rather, they are events that are so improbable that they can only be explained by the existence of God and His acting in the world.

The only way to avoid the conclusion that the Omega Point exists is to reject the known laws of physics (i.e., the Second Law of Thermodynamics, general relativity, quantum mechanics, and the Standard Model of particle physics), and hence to reject empirical science: as these physical laws have been confirmed by every experiment to date. That is, there exists no rational reason for thinking that the Omega Point Theory is incorrect, and indeed, one must engage in extreme irrationality in order to argue against the Omega Point cosmology.

Additionally, we now have the quantum gravity Theory of Everything (TOE) correctly describing and unifying all the forces in physics: of which inherently produces the Omega Point cosmology. So here we have an additional high degree of assurance that the Omega Point cosmology is correct.

Bear in mind that Prof. Frank J. Tipler's Omega Point Theory has been published in a number of the world's leading peer-reviewed physics and science journals.[1] Even NASA itself has peer-reviewed his Omega Point Theory and found it correct according to the known laws of physics (see below). No refutation of it exists within the peer-reviewed scientific literature, or anywhere else for that matter.

jamesredford, FSTDT Boards 89 Comments [5/30/2010 4:02:27 PM]
Fundie Index: 74
Submitted By: Phisshy

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"Moreover, the Standard Model of particle physics provides the mechanism by which the miracles recorded in the New Testament could be achieved without violating any known laws of physics"

Really? Last time I heard bringing a person back from the dead doesn't work. Especially if they've been dead for even just a few hours thanks to irreversible chemical/biological changes in the body soon after death.

Also, in creating the universe God would have had to violate several laws of physics what with creating everything in the universe out of nothing.

5/30/2010 4:13:37 PM

Bowen

Stupid word salad is stupid.

5/30/2010 4:22:50 PM



I see a giant wall of wharrgarbl.

5/30/2010 4:30:34 PM

Scorpius

Best described as,WTF?

5/30/2010 4:36:39 PM

John

Congratulations. After beating the shit out of that poor dead horse, you’ve reached the same conclusion as the majority of Christians: there’s no inherent conflict between science and Christian theology. The addition of all that Teilhard de Chardin "omega point" nonsense didn't really add anything, even if you actually understood Teilhard, which you don't.

BTW, "you can't prove me wrong" =/= "I'm right". That's called the "argument from ignorance" fallacy.

5/30/2010 4:39:36 PM

solomongrundy

Moreover, the Standard Model of particle physics provides the mechanism by which the miracles recorded in the New Testament could be achieved without violating any known laws of physics...

If that were true (which it isn't) they'd scarcely be miracles would they? Isn't the whole point of a miracle that it violates the laws of nature? For example, when the NT tells us Jesus walked on the water how does the Standard Model of particle physics explain it?

5/30/2010 4:45:11 PM



now, i'll be the first to admit i'm no particle physicist. what i know about high science comes from books written by scientists aimed at the general public, but this looks like jamesredford took a bunch of words from science based wikipedia pages and mashed them together into a semi-coherent rant.

5/30/2010 4:50:18 PM

David B.

Equivocation at its finest. Take every paper on cosmology Tipler has written and pretend that it is a peer reviewed confirmation of his Omega Point idea (it's not a theory, it's neither testable nor falsifiable).

"Traditional Christian theology has maintained that God never violates natural law, as God, in His omniscience, knew in the beginning all that He wanted to achieve and so, in His omnipotence, He formed the laws of physics in order to achieve His goal."

Oops, that requires strict determinism. So (a) free-will just went out of the window and God's goals apparently included creating billions of expendable individuals to be tortured forever for doing exactly what their creator desired them to do. And (b) you've just violated several physical laws, particularly those to do with uncertainty, and gone contrary to about 40 years of rigorously confirmed experimental results that show that quantum systems do not behave in strictly deterministic ways.

5/30/2010 4:50:34 PM

Pule Thamex

So the God of ruffians. The Torturer Supreme. The Eternal Destroyer. He who would as soon murder women and children, if He thought their town wasn't paying Him enough attention, as do anything admirable. That Eternal Wretch the Living Shithead, your saying He's all into elegant mathematics and all sorts of highfalutin physics stuff as well as His usual hobbies of deluding fools and committing genocide.

Although His very latest passion is being invisible and not actually doing anything at all, as though He doesn't even exist. So maybe you're right, perhaps He has an interest in ultra-mega-angelic-supernatural-science and it has taken over His hobby of filling up His torture chambers with atheists etc.

5/30/2010 4:51:23 PM

Smilodon

There isn't enough matter in the universe to make it collapse back on itself. So much for the Omega Point.

5/30/2010 4:52:01 PM

Old Viking

I once had an Omega Point. The damned thing lasted about a week before all the wiring burned out.

5/30/2010 4:58:53 PM

Large Hardon Collider

1.

creatio ex nihilo = something from nothing
Sorry, but that disobeys EVERY law of physics.

I have no idea what "the fundamentally triune structure of the Omega Point cosmology", and I'm sure you don't either. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt anyway.

2.

Although I know more about relativistic physics than particle physics, I can assure you that quantum effects are never observed in the macroscopic universe. And again with the Omega Point, wtf is an omega point?

3.

Natural law mean the laws of our known universe, which would be violated by god. If you disregard all the laws of physics, as you suggest, then nothing would violate natural law. Not santa claus, not superman, and not jesus. Since observing anything outside the observable universe is impossible, we tend to ignore these things.

4.

Didn't you suggest ignoring the laws of physics in your last paragraph? WTF IS AN OMEGA POINT?

5.

No we don't.

5/30/2010 5:23:54 PM

anevilmeme

Throwing big words together, a fundie trademark.

5/30/2010 5:25:00 PM

Phisshy

Heh

Internet Wise Guys should get what they deserve.

Whoa not physical harm, just humiliation and a package of viruses.

5/30/2010 5:27:15 PM



Dark Energy indicates the acceleration of the universe is expanding, thus there will never be an Omega Point

5/30/2010 5:47:36 PM

the old firm

Additionally, we now have the quantum gravity Theory of Everything (TOE) correctly describing and unifying all the forces in physics...

Huh, do we have indeed such a thing? Must have missed it...

5/30/2010 6:01:38 PM

Skyknight

This would be Wikipedia's first paragraph on Tipler's understanding of the Omega Point:

"The Omega Point is a term used by Tulane University professor of physics and mathematics Frank J. Tipler to describe what he maintains is a physically-necessary cosmological state in the far future of the universe. According to his Omega Point Theory, as the universe comes to an end at a singularity in a particular form of the Big Crunch, the computational capacity of the universe (in terms of both its processor speed and memory storage) increases unlimitedly with a hyperbolic growth rate as the radius of the universe goes to zero, allowing an infinite number of bits to be processed and stored before the end of spacetime. Via this supertask, a simulation run on this universal computer can thereby continue forever in its own terms (i.e., in "experiential time"), even though the universe lasts only a finite amount of proper time. Tipler states this theory requires that the current known laws of physics are true descriptions of reality, which he says implies that there be intelligent civilizations in existence at the appropriate time in order to force the collapse of the universe and then manipulate its collapse so that the computational capacity of the universe can diverge to infinity."

In other words, the Omega Point is basically the universe collapsing into a singularity where time nonetheless moves so slowly that it is for all intents and purposes eternal.

5/30/2010 6:19:27 PM

Tolpuddle Martyr

Hoo boy, Tipler. Mr "It's science because it sounds sciency" Tipler. Fans of Tipler's Omega Point ignore the fact that Tipler's "inevitable" Omega Point rests on a narrative about teeny-tiny starships invading the galaxy with downloaded brains on souped-up flash drives.

From Wikipedia.

"Assuming that achieving the Omega Point is physically possible, Tipler says this would be accomplished by "downloaded" human consciousness on quantum computers in tiny starships that could exponentially explore space, many times faster than biological human beings. Tipler argues that the incredible expense of keeping humans alive in space implies that flesh-and-blood humans will never personally travel to other stars. Instead, highly efficient uploads of human minds ("mind children" as Tipler calls them, they being the mental uploads of our descendants, or of ourselves[1]) and artificial intelligences will spread civilization throughout space. According to Tipler, this should likely start before 2100. Small spaceships under heavy acceleration up to relativistic speeds could then reach nearby stars in less than a decade. In one million years, these intelligent von Neumann probes would have completely colonized the Milky Way galaxy. In 100 million years, the Virgo Supercluster would be colonized. From that point on, the entire visible universe would be engulfed by these "mind children" as it approaches the point of maximum expansion. Per this cosmological model, the final singularity of the Omega Point itself will be reached between 1018 and 1019 years."

Cool story bro, but it aint science it's science fiction!

Even if it is physically possible it hasn't happened yet so it's a fantasy by definition. Not a scientific theory as the term is commonly used, not a testable hypothesis - a fictional narrative using scientific concepts, sci fi in other words.

Edit: Should read "10 to the 18th power" instead of 1018, same with 1019.

5/30/2010 6:25:10 PM

James Redford

God has been proven to exist based upon the most reserved view of the known laws of physics. For much more on that, see Prof. Frank J. Tipler's below paper, which in addition to giving the Feynman-Weinberg quantum gravity/Standard Model Theory of Everything (TOE) correctly describing and unifying all the forces in physics, also demonstrates that the known laws of physics (i.e., the Second Law of Thermodynamics, general relativity, quantum mechanics, and the Standard Model of particle physics) require that the universe end in the Omega Point (the final cosmological singularity and state of infinite informational capacity identified as being God):

F. J. Tipler, "The structure of the world from pure numbers," Reports on Progress in Physics, Vol. 68, No. 4 (April 2005), pp. 897-964; available at Tipler's website. Also released as "Feynman-Weinberg Quantum Gravity and the Extended Standard Model as a Theory of Everything," arXiv:0704.3276, April 24, 2007.

Reports on Progress in Physics is the leading journal of the Institute of Physics, Britain's main professional body for physicists. Further, Reports on Progress in Physics has a higher impact factor (according to Journal Citation Reports) than Physical Review Letters, which is the most prestigious American physics journal (one, incidently, which Prof. Tipler has been published in more than once). A journal's impact factor reflects the importance the science community places in that journal in the sense of actually citing its papers in their own papers.

5/30/2010 6:26:36 PM

shadkat

I have to admit, that all went over my head. *sadface* I'm trying to convince Wikipedia to enlighten me, but I think I'm confusing myself more.

5/30/2010 6:45:42 PM

Rames Jedford

The Flying Spaghetti Monster has been proven to exist based upon the most reserved view of the known laws of physics. For much more on that, see Prof. Hubert J. Farnsworth's below paper, which in addition to giving the Lucas-Adams midichlorian-energy laws/Unified Force of Life, the Universe, and the Everything (UFLUE) correctly describing and unifying all the aspects of the lifestream, also demonstrates that the known laws of the multiverse (i.e., the Second Law of Phlogistdynamics, private relativity, quantum apprenticeship, and the Standard Model of Boulder physics) require that the universe end in the Tian Point (the final cosmological singularity and state of infinite informational capacity identified as being the Banhammer):

B. J Payler, "The structure of the world from internet posters," Reports on Progress in Physics, Vol. 68, No. 4 (April 2005), pp. 897-964; available at Payler's website. Also released as "Lucas-Adams Quantum Gravity and the Extended Standard Model as a Theory of Everything," arXiv:0704.3276, April 24, 2007.

Reports on Progress in Meta-Physics is the leading journal of Dalaran University, Azeroth's main professional body for mages. Further, Reports on Progress in Arcane Sciences has a higher impact factor (according to Body Count Reports) than Spiritual Review Letters, which is the most prestigious Gondorian physics journal (one, incidently, which Prof. Payler has been published in more than once). A journal's impact factor reflects the importance the meta-magic community places in that tome in the sense of actually citing its papers in their own papers.

5/30/2010 6:50:39 PM

Phisshy

Ok I posted Rames Jedford.

BTW the entire Omega Point dealy on wikipedia is defended by Reddy and Reddy alone.

Just take a look at the discussion pages.

5/30/2010 6:53:58 PM

Saladin

Alright, I don't feel like reading this shit. Can somebody give me the TL;DR?

5/30/2010 7:23:56 PM

Vince

You lost me at the part where god doesn't break the laws of physics because he made them not to be broke by him.

Being able to talk about something for too long doesn't mean you know what your talking about.

5/30/2010 7:49:43 PM

shykid

I have no earthly clue what you are talking about. Neither do you.

5/30/2010 8:00:58 PM

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