Andy Schlafly #fundie

Andy Schlafly #fundie conservapedia.com

[re: the lack of knowledgeable scholars working on the Conservative Bible Project]

The Greek and Hebrew languages are well understood and readily available to any internet user. In this electronic age a laptop and a browser are superior to (and fast than) the finest Greek/Hebrew scholar. Some may wince at that observation, but it's the same reason that sales of the Encyclopedia Britannica declined and Borders has gone bankrupt.

The real challenge to a Bible translation today is the ever-changing English language into which the Greek/Hebrew must be translated. English terms like "peace be with you" are constantly changing their meaning and a good translation has to have enough political savvy to react to liberal and atheistic biases that creep into language. See liberal creep!

The objection to the Conservative Bible Project is like saying an engineer should not try to build a bridge unless he first becomes a master in trigonometry. That objection doesn't work, because the trigonometry is well-understood and modern challenges in building a good bridge have little to do with sine and cosine functions.

The CBP stacks up favorably against any academic translation out there. You can pick a few verses, and so will I, and I bet CBP is better.

[Emphasis added]

173 comments

old comment by Atheissimo

I took the liberty of putting your first paragraph through a superior laptop and browser, you know, the ones that are better than the scholars? Unfortunately, Babelfish doesn't know ancient Greek or Hebrew, so here it is in English after being translated through modern Greek:

'The Greek and Jewish languages become comprehensible well and easily - available in anyone of user of Internet. In this electronic age a lap-top and search engine it is superior from (and fast from) the thinner Greek/Jewish student. Can certain twitch in that observation, but it'? s that the same reason of that the sales of encyclopaedia Britannica were decreased and the borders have gone broke.'

You want to travel on a bridge held up by the same principles that made this translation, then be my guest...

old comment by Matante

I wonder if his troll-fans suggested the engineer simile. Considering that engineers must indeed understand trigonometry, it's something a Poe would say to hint that he's a Poe. Assuming that he isn't one, Andy was deceived into saying it, and is too dumb to realise he's been trolled.

Or he really made it up himself and is beating the law of probabilities by NEVER getting anything right.
You know a stopped watch is right twice a day, well Andy is like a watch that works backward but kinda sideway like the hands are somewhere on the i axis when they should go through the actual time it is, the numbers spell "pizza" in klingon and if you open it to see how it's built, you see it's full of noodles.
I'm not sure where I'm going with that. I got lost somewhere. Wondering about Andy's mind does that to someone...

old comment by From the frozen north, Death cometh

"The objection to the Conservative Bible Project is like saying an engineer should not try to build a bridge unless he first becomes a master in trigonometry. That objection doesn't work, because the trigonometry is well-understood and modern challenges in building a good bridge have little to do with sine and cosine functions."

You can't be serious... I refuse to believe you're saying this with a straight face. of-Fucking-course I want the engineer who makes the plans for the bridge I'm going to use to know every single thing there is about trigonometry. Andy has got to be brain damaged. There is no other explanation for this. O_o

old comment by checkmate

Part I. And just who does Mr. Schlafly think programs the computers? Or do the machines just happen know Greek and Hebrew all by themselves?

During my years at the university I spent countless hours pounding Latin, Greek, and Hebrew (among other languages) into my head. As with any other language, none of those languages is a clear cut question of 1+1=2. The intricacies of grammar, syntax and semantics can only be learned and understood by hard study and lots of hard thinking. In other words: academics.

Mr. Schlafly is a victim of circular logic. Any answer he gets from a laptop was put there by an academic, that is unless it was changed to fit a certain ideology.

How would Schlafly translate "Tohu wa bohu" from the first chapter of Genesis? His laptop would tell him something like "empty and void". The truth is that those words are both (wa = "and") so-called hapax legomena, meaning that they are not attested anywhere else. Nobody really knows what they mean. Their meaning can only be derived from the context. "Empty and void" is a guess. It could very well mean "Lemon Jello and vanilla ice cream". Nobody knows. Mr. Schlafly's laptop doesn't know either.

old comment by checkmate

Part II.

I hate it when lazy, stupid people come up with excuses for their laziness. No, Mr. Schlafly, it doesn't work that way.

Translations of certain phrases aren't automatic. They are decided upon based on the many possibilities and extended meanings of overlapping semantic fields between languages. A Bible translation can't be filled with pages full of notes in parenthesis explaining the background of every translation. That's what the commentaries are for.

How would Schlafly translate "hine(y)!" Depending on the context it's usually translated as "behold", "here (I am)", "see, it's me", or something like that. Anybody who has learned Biblical Hebrew on an academic level knows that it doesn't have a real independent translatable meaning, it's more like a New York "yo!" or "yeah". Does Mr. Schlafly's laptop know that?

old comment by WWWWolf

> In this electronic age a laptop and a browser are superior to (and fast than) the finest Greek/Hebrew scholar.

Been using Google Translate or Babelfish lately? (Obviously not - the only good sources are American sources, right?) Those things are pretty much state of the art in computer translation, and they kinda suck. You can use them for rough guesstimation of what some passages of text mean, but they're worthless for translation.

I have nothing against Google Translate - I just have a beef with people who think they can base their entire business on it. I've seen companies give us mutilated Finnish translations of their websites and pretend this is all that's needed for this market. Guys, we laugh at that shit, and have laughed at it for decades now. We have no problems doing business with these companies, but we expect that if a company does customer service in Finnish, they go the whole hog and don't try to just pretend they know the language.

If it doesn't pass for customer service, how the hell do you think it passes for translation of holy texts?

> Some may wince at that observation, but it's the same reason that sales of the Encyclopedia Britannica declined and Borders has gone bankrupt.

Britannica's sales are declining because Wikipedia is kicking their asses. How did they do it? Human editors building and revising articles via volunteer work. And, of course, no one wants paper encyclopaedias when electronic ones are much better.

Borders? No idea about the specifics, but let me guess - stiff and aggressive competition from another bookseller who is known for doing whatever it takes to get an edge. Named after a rainforest, because it's just as scary. Nothing to do with machine translation, incidentally. Nothing to do with content creators. Nobody buys machine-translated books.

old comment by \m/>_<\m/

Heresy... actually, you're doing it very well on your own, wow!

"Some may wince at that observation"
not just that one, andy-ol'-boy. all your observations make us wince.

since no one highlighted it yet,
" a good translation has to have enough political savvy to react to liberal and atheistic biases that creep into language. "
a good translation must not be your soapbox: a good translation is slavishly close and FAITHFUL to the original material. then again, you wouldn't know anything about the judeo-christian faith.

(atheists of the world unite! protect christianity and all religions from fundamentalists perverting them!) <- can't believe i'd ever say that!

old comment by dionysus

The Greek and Hebrew languages are well understood and readily available to any internet user. In this electronic age a laptop and a browser are superior to (and fast than) the finest Greek/Hebrew scholar.

You know what else is on the internet? A bunch of garbage. Answers in Genesis, Timecube, Conservapedia, etc. You know what's not on the internet? Experience and critical thinking skills (although there are some good guides for fostering the latter). The internet is a great tool and the greatest source of information on the planet if you know how to use it correctly but it's also a death trap of misinformation, half-truths, conspiracy nonsense, absolute bullshit, and scams. Conservapedia shows in great detail why avoiding bad sources of information is one of the most important things to learn about the using internet. But even if you know where to look and find a phenomenal source, having all the information in the world at your fingertips doesn't replace years of professional experience with applying that information in previous projects.

@checkmate

Not to mention idiomatic expressions. Those require extensive knowledge of the culture and a novice literal translation leads to nonsense at best and something that completely changes the meaning of an entire passage at worst.

old comment by Doubting Thomas

Sorry, but babelfish translator still doesn't work that well, because it's hard for it to tell which meaning of a word is being used.

Andy, why don't you just admit that you want to rewrite the bible to suit your own biases? I'd have just a tiny bit of respect for you if you'd be honest.

like saying an engineer should not try to build a bridge unless he first becomes a master in trigonometry. That objection doesn't work, because the trigonometry is well-understood and modern challenges in building a good bridge have little to do with sine and cosine functions.

Further proof that religion (and possibly conservatism) keeps people stupid. Andy must seem to think that studying trigonometry for four years is no better than googling it for five minutes.

old comment by CohibaMan

Actually, individuals like Schlafly are the reason that at least part of me is inclined to hope that Christianity is true.

That Christ guy seemed pretty reasonable. He hung out with the lowest of society, stopped a bunch of fundies from stoning a lady, appeared to value goodness and the search for truth over any particular dogmatic beliefs, and told the religious teachers of his time that prostitutes and tax collectors were going to enter the Kingdom of Heaven before they did. When I read the Gospels I see a guy who, if he were God, would probably be rather merciful to honest atheists and agnostics who did their best to treat their neighbors right, even if those individuals spent their entire lives denying his existence.

The only harsh words he had to speak were for the Schlafly's and other religious bigots of his time, as well as for those that used religion as a means to profit off the backs of the poor. Christ was adamantly anti-fundie. I firmly believe that, if Christ is real, hell will be populated primarily by the sort of people this site exists to mock.

Incidentally, if there is an "anti-Christ" to come I can't imagine him being any different from the "Second Coming" that RR's and others seem to so desperately await. So much of what these people expect Christ to do is the exact opposite of the figure we see in the gospels. Think of the ramifications of that for a moment...

old comment by Anon-e-moose

"The objection to the Conservative Bible Project is like saying an engineer should not try to build a bridge unless he first becomes a master in trigonometry. That objection doesn't work"

Okay then. Go build a bridge like the DanyangKunshan Grand in China, using just your legal skills, Andy Schaftafly.

...what's that, you say? 'That doesn't work'? Well then, as Phoenix Wright would say:

image

Use of bad analogy. Therefore your objection to your critic's objection in saying that you are lacking in scholarly skills, certainly in your so-called 'Conservative Bible Project' doesn't work; after all, are you an Emeritus Professor in Theology, who has studied not only the main bodies of writings that make up the Bible as we know it, but the other myriad tomes of related works in not only Latin & Greek, but Aramaic - and for decades no less, thus your not only becoming a Professor, but an Emeritus one in the process?

It's so simple, even a monkey understands.

If you think your CBP can easily stand up to scrutiny, just send a copy of such to the hallowed halls of academia that are the Theology & Philosophy departments of Oxford & Cambridge universities here in the UK:

image

They could do with a good laugh. >:D

old comment by Brendan Rizzo

Um, no, Schlafly, you're wrong. Even an amateur linguist such as myself can list a million different ways in which you are wrong. How dumb must you be to think that someone who does not know Hebrew or Greek is better-suited to translate the Bible than people who know those languages? Besides, isn't it true that you don't look at the original languages at all, but just go through the KJV and change words and phrases in it that you don't like? God does not approve of that, Schlafly. The Bible itself says so.

And Schlafly, advanced mathematics (especially calculus... which you need to know trigonometry in order to understand) is required for one to be an engineer. After all, people's lives depend on the engineers designing stable structures, and they can only make sure they're stable with proper math. I am taking physics, (which one would need in order to build a stable bridge) and sine and cosine functions are needed when dealing with vectors. Even your analogy fails. That's kind of impressive.

old comment by checkmate

@ Anon-e-moose

the hallowed halls of academia that are the Theology & Philosophy departments of Oxford & Cambridge universities

Interestingly enough, with a few prominent exceptions theologians usually aren't very good at Greek and Hebrew. Albeit to a milder degree, they tend to suffer from the same illness that ails Mr. Schlafly.

They generally subscribe to a grammar filled with undifferentiated solutions for complex problems and rely heavily on the "special case" translations in the main dictionaries (Liddell-Scott, Gesenius, etc.). We called that "theologian grammar".

Theologians learn not to ask critical questions. They accept superficial explanations much too quickly, especially when those solutions fit their intent. They think the Bible has to be unambiguous and don't readly accept cases that are wide open to debate.

The real answers come from scholars in comparative linguistics.

old comment by Anon-e-moose

@checkmate

True to your screename as per usual. Still, even they know infinitely more than Andy Schaftafly though.

Who is too busy building a bridge even longer than that in China, as we speak, to be able to object to the aforementioned objection...! [/hyper-sarcasm]

...or to publish his aforementioned Conservative Bible Project & distribute to bookshops for sale to the public. Which includes those in the mainstream of right-wing Fundamentalist Christianity in the US.

Y'know, Andy: Conservatives. Just. Like. You.

Whassamatter, Andy? Surely your CBP would stand up to their scrutiny?! Seeing as almost all of them consider the KJV to be the definitive, final, unchangeable Word of God. I'm sure they would refer you to those last two verses of Revelation, at the very end of the NT. Y'know, Andy: 22:18-19, just in case you've forgotten.

Just before they tore you a new one. >:D

old comment by

As a fellow electrical engineer (his educational background), I sincerely apologize for Andy's crazy rantings above.

an engineer should not try to build a bridge unless he first becomes a master in trigonometry.

This analogy is highly flawed. While in engineering school, I studied transistor theory and basic design (ie. common-collector/base/emitter, self vs. fixed bias, current mirrors, etc.). That didn't mean I suddenly could design a quality audio amplifier after successfully completing the course. It took many other classes on various related subjects (ie. control theory, thermodynamics, etc.) and years of experience (mostly trial and error) to be able to design such complex devices.

After 15 years of being out of school and about 20 years in high-end audio, my latest amplifier contains 19 transistors, 37 resistors, a small smattering of capacitors and I'm still not completely satisfied with the results. Looks like it's back to the ol' drawing board for me.

Fortunately, audio amps are rather clandestine objects by comparison and won't kill people if they collapse. ;-)

old comment by Dr. Razark

English -> Greek -> English:
For the God that is loved thus the world that it only gave his one and son, that believes in it will be lost but has the eternal life.

Again I say to you, it easier for a camel is to pass from the eye of needle [ap]'? what for a rich person in order to it imports the kingdom of God.

Yeah. Those translators work so well. I used to work for a server hosting company. We had customers all over the world. They used online translators to submit trouble tickets:
"I am Bravo to accustom in computer IP, but but task United States antenna Italy rows badly time!"

And that's not even touching on you twisting the message of the book you claim to worship.

old comment by Anon-e-moose

@Anon

>>The Greek and Hebrew languages are well understood and readily available to any internet user. In this electronic age a laptop and a browser are superior to (and fast than) the finest Greek/Hebrew scholar.<<

"Adding to the more obvious fail in this statement, Schlafly isn't even giving the right languages for the Bible. The original texts were written in what we call Biblical Hebrew, Koine Greek, and Biblical Aramaic - and Jesus spoke primarily Aramaic, so even the oldest Koine Greek texts are already translations of whatever he actually said.

Schlafly's Argument Is Invalid"

As with the dialogue in his film "Apocalypto" in Yucatec Mayan (as near as dammit to actual ancient Mayan), there's a good reason why Mel Gibson made his film "The Passion of the Christ" in Aramaic, Andy Schaftafly.

Else, he - as a devout Roman Catholic - would have had it's full dialogue in Latin.

But I guess the word 'Authenticity' is an alien concept to Andy here. After all, The KJV - so beloved of fundies - is just another rewrite, that's all.

It's only the Complete Works of Shakespeare in Klingon that gains something in the translation.

'You have never experienced Shakespeare, until you have read him in the original Klingon'

-Chancellor Gorkon (David Warner)

'taH pagh taHbe'

-General Chang (Christopher Plummer), "Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country"

old comment by Night Jaguar

"The objection to the Conservative Bible Project is like saying an engineer should not try to build a bridge unless he first becomes a master in trigonometry."

Actually, this is a good analogy. Your failure is in (ironically) interpreting the analogy correctly (hint: you need math to build bridges).
_ _ _

Also, just take a look at the math in this article:

EulerBernoulli beam equation (aka, engineer's beam theory)

"Bridges and buildings continued to be designed by precedent until the late 19th century, when the Eiffel Tower and Ferris wheel demonstrated the validity of the theory on large scales."

Trig would have been one of the mathematical subjects I'd expect an engineer to have mastered in order to fully understand the math behind the theory (hell, it would have been one of the simpler subjects). And this is considered "classical beam theory".

old comment by SpukiKitty

If I reedited a Bible, I'd take out the "Bad Stuff" & keep the "Good Stuff".

Vengeful Monster God, GONE.

Loving Parental God, STAYS.

Or perhaps I wouldn't cut out stuff but instead, change the wording. Monster God with be refered to as The Demiurge while the Loving God will be, well, God. When Biblical heroes do, teach, or say something deranged, it'll say something like "The Demiurge entered Moses/Joshua/etc. and he said, did, etc....". I'd add the Gnostic scriptures & readapt them to a Liberal Judeo-Christian mindset rather than the oft world-hating traditional Gnostic fashion.

I always thought that Gnostic Christianity & Regular Christianity are two sides of the same coin. Like a puzzle, you need the whole picture to get it right. As a result, when both are followed separately you get a weird Anti-World/Matter weird-fest with the Gnostic & a Big Dang Scary God of Patriarchal Bombast with the regular Bible.

Left Brain/Right Brain, Yin/Yang, Anima/Animus, East/West, Esoteric/Exoteric, Female/Male, ChristoGnostic/Catholic, Sufi/Muslim, Kabbalah/Judaism....makes sense. Balance....and little opportunity for Fundie thinking. Actually, Sufi & Kabbalah should be regarded as Gnosticism as well. "Gnostic" is an umbrella term. Perhaps the Christian variety should be called "LogoSophian" or something. All of these faiths should accept the Demiurge concept, IMHO...it would explain so much why the Higher Power comes across as Pol Pot rather than a loving Mom & Dad who care for us. God would be Godde & an androgyne. Godde, our Mother-Father.

The Demiurge could simply be called AntiGodde. Godde/AntiGodde, Christ/AntiChrist...makes sense.

old comment by John

In this electronic age a laptop and a browser are superior to (and fast than) the finest Greek/Hebrew scholar.

I'm reminded of the early computer translator that was asked to translate "out of sight, out of mind" into Russian. When the Russian was re-translated into English, it came back "blind and insane".

I wonder what Andy's crew will do with John 3:3-5:

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

The word translated as "again" is "anothen", which actually has two meanings: "from above or from heaven", and "anew". Nicodemus misinterprets Jesus and thinks he means the second meaning. Jesus corrects him and indicates he means the first. The problem is, this error can't happen in English, because we have no one word that has both meanings; so it's impossible to translate Jesus' initial statement correctly without making Nicodemus sound like a moron. But since Jesus and Nicodemus were both Jews, they were almost certainly speaking Aramaic, which also has no one word with both meanings. Therefore, this misunderstanding would have been impossible and the whole story was probably baloney made up after the fact.

old comment by Mihangel apYrs

Amusing though Shitfly is, his project is quite dangerous.

In due course, his "re-interpreted" bible could become a text for certain rightwing and powerful fundies - in their churches and in their politics. I imagine he's finding ways to refocus away from condemnation of hypocrisy and wealth accummulation at the expense of others, and focus on sexual sin, not following orders etc, etc. That is, giving the rich and powerful validation and even more authority, while beating up gays and women, esp women who have sex outside marriage or need an abortion.

Once they manage to bury KJV and its derivatives they can bring in the "new" interpretation of God's word (God the capitalist, that is!) as the way the US of Jeebusland should be run.

old comment by Anon-e-moose

@MarylandBear

"@Mihangel apYrs:

In due course, his "re-interpreted" bible could become a text for certain rightwing and powerful fundies - in their churches and in their politics.

Not gonna happen. When news of the project hit the intertubes, it was met by scorn across the board. Even World Net Daily was aghast at the idea"

Like I say, if Andy Schaftafly has nothing to be afraid of, what's to stop him from publishing his CBP and making it available to the public via bookshops? If he's so secure in what he claims about such; that he's right, and everyone else is wrong?

The fact he hasn't to date, speaks more volumes than the Complete Oxford English Dictionary and Encyclopaedia Britannica put together. So, Andy - what are you afraid of? Your dried-up dessiccated old harpy of a mother Phyllis should be able to find a willing right-wing publisher & distributor, nay, fund the same for her precious little boy, as she has so much faith in you.

Just as you have faith in whatever you say being right eh, Andy?

Yeah. You're so right. And therein lies the problem. With the emphasis on Lies.

Moral: The fact you haven't published your CBP in actual book form proves that you don't have any faith in your 'Faith', Andy. The phrase 'Publish and be damned!' exists for a reason. As do the titbits of Scripture, Revelation 22:18-19; and you know it. Don't you, Andy Schaftafly?

Or just scared that your CBP in book form would end up on the shelves of the Humour section* of bookshops, to say nothing of Pat Robertson tearing you a new one, doctrinally on his "700 Club" eh, Andy?! KJV, and all that jazz...! >:D

*- At the other extreme, "The Bible according to Spike Milligan" is a fun read, and a perfect parody. But of course, via his "Goon Shows"/"Q" series (the latter in particular had a direct influence on "Monty Python"), the late great Spike is effectively the inventor of modern comedy as we know it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/According_to_Spike_Milligan#The_Bible.E2.80.94the_Old_Testament_According_to_Spike_Milligan

old comment by Anon-e-moose

@Troll/Poe/Nuts4Life

"God will judge you for it. I would fear for my soul if I was you."

Matthew 7:1, dearie. Oh, and not forgetting this little titbit of your own 'Word of God':

Revelation 21:8 (KJV; emphasis added): 'But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.'

Considering your previous track record, re. breaking the 9th Commandment, whilst still claiming to be 'Saved', I'd say that no amount of 'Grace by Faith Only' nor 'OSAS' is going to save you from the fate you condemned 'spinach man' Prof. Stephen Hawking to, claiming to speak for God himself, nay, judging on his behalf, when Matthew 7:1 and Revelation 21:8 says you don't even have the right to so much as think about doing so.

James 2:14-26 KJV, and all that jazz...!

So, speaking as someone who isn't going to 'take it up the butt for eternity', as you've unjustifiably claimed - many times - in the past, I'd say, re. your soul, dearie...:

Be afraid. Be very afraid. >:D

Moral: To ensure that final trip is upward, if I were you, I'd stop with the unjustifiably right-wing judgemental attitude of yours, as well as the lying, and start being the meek, humble, non-judgemental, unopinionated, turn-the-other-cheek, introverted, reserved, left-wing, hyper-tolerant, James 2:14-26-esque Christian Jesus ordered his followers to be. Rather like the Quakers, for example. They don't bother anyone, they're not bothered by anyone.

Thus is why they're not quoted here in FSTDT. You do the maths, Troll/Poe/Nuts4Life.

old comment by Xotan

"The Greek and Hebrew languages are well understood"

Correction. 'reasonably well understood'. For example, there is nobody who really understands the Greek word used by Paul: 'Arsenikoitoi'. That doesn't stop bigots trying to force the meaning of 'homosexual' onto it.

And then in Hebrew, the injunction against letting a witch live - much used for burning people alive! - is probably a mistranslation of poisoner.

It might be of interest to note that the Greek language that is spoken today is a descendant of Koine (Bibilical) Greek. But it has changed down the centuries. And the Latin that is spoken today (outside of the Vatical) is known variously as Italian, French, Portuguese, Catalan, Occitan, Romanian etc. None of these are really mutually comprehensible , although Spanish, Italian and Catalan are close enough to get a general understanding from one to the other, with patience and slow talking.

As to language and bridges, there is no link between linguistics and engineering.

The only way to get a modern version of any ancient text is to go back to the original and render it in the current version of whatever language you wish.

And unless, dear Andy, you fluentyly speak Ancient (certainly NOT modern) Hebrew and Greek, then you have no idea what you are talking about.

old comment by tmarcl

@Gloria

Trig is "well understood" in part because it's expected that by he time you get out of highschool, you will understand the basics. That you apparently think it's an obscure specialised field says a great deal about your homeschool "education."

Actually, that's not necessarily the case. Trigonometry wasn't taught in high school when I went (I graduated in 1992), and I went to public school. I do know that my nieces and nephews had at least a basic understanding of trig, and the oldest graduated in 2007. Since Andy is about 13 years older than me, it wouldn't surprise me that he didn't have trigonometry in high school, either.

Granted, he does have a certificate in Engineering physics from Princeton (according to wikipedia), which would suggest to me that he should know something about bridge building (I'm assuming it includes trigonometry, because I have next to zero knowledge about either subject).

old comment by

@tmarcl

It's actually surprising how much "liberal bias" he seems to have kept. "Blessed are the peacemakers" is still there. So is "turn the other cheek."

Hmm, that depends on how you see it.

"Blessed are the peacemakers" could mean that the conservatives are praying to their true object of intense devotion:

image

On the other hand "turn the other cheek" sounds suspiciously like something that might be said during homosexual butt sex, so that would indeed not be something they would want in their Bible. ;-)

+++++++++++++++++++++

@tmarcl

Trigonometry wasn't taught in high school when I went (I graduated in 1992), and I went to public school.

Where on earth did you go to school? I went to public school too and I had trig in 11th grade. That was 1974/75.

old comment by Anon-e-moose

@Troll/Poe/Nuts4Life

"They do not even use the Bible in their services."

So? Makes them none the less Christian. But infinitely more so than the likes of you. James 2:14-26 proves they are. And you're nothing more than a Scripture-cherry picking Paulian masquerading as someone who claims to be 'Saved'. When Revelation 21:8 & the 9th Commandment proves that you're not - and never will be - until you change. Completely.

"As someone who believes the Bible is the word of God, I would not join a group like that."

As someone who knows that Jesus doesn't even so much as mention homosexuality, never mind word one of condemnation of such in the New Testament (go ahead. Prove me wrong; direct wording - no parable or metaphor allowed, 'I hate homosexuality!' - Jesus), your own unjustifiable - certainly baseless - bigotry as demonstrated here:

http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=84542&Page=2

is a prime example of why Quakers will never join the extremely un-Christian right-wing Fundamentalist Christians. Just. Like. You.

Because they know you're not - and never will be - Christians. In word, action, and thought.

"Anonemoose, I see that I have annoyed you."

And you have proven yourself true to your real screename: Troll/Poe/Nuts4Life.

You don't see Quakers even thinking about behaving the same way. Do you, dearie?

1 Timothy 5:13 (KJV; emphasis added): 'And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not.'

"Organized religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded people who need strength in numbers. It tells people to go out and stick their noses in other people's business."

-Jesse Ventura; ex-politician, ex-actor, ex-wrestler and ex-Navy SEAL

The prosecution rests.

...oh, one more thing: didn't you say here:

http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=82696&Page=5

'I am done conversing with you.'

Seems that you're a glutton for verbal punishment, then. Or you're merely wishing to maintain your (in)famous reputation here in FSTDT, as per your real screename: Troll/Poe/Nuts4Life. Or merely emphasising the 'Nuts' this time, eh? Or (again) proving what a liar you are. Remember: if you're what you claim to be, then I refer you to 1 Timothy 5:13; and as before, Matthew 7:1, Revelation 21:8 and the 9th Commandment.

Otherwise, not only are you proving you're not a Christian, despite your claims to the contrary (when your own Word of God says otherwise; like I say, James 2:14-26), you're proving 1 Timothy 5:13 - and we at FSTDT re. your real screename right. And therefore it's not we Atheists who are going to Hell. >:D

...and in before 'I don't understand you!', yadda-yadda, ad infinitum ad nauseam. That excuse has worn out it's welcome. And - via 1 Timothy 5:13 - so have you.

old comment by Stormwarden

But His4Life, don't you know that God LOVES Atheists? They don't pray for him over the stupidest things, they won't try to kill each other over barely habitable tracts of land, and that they don't twist his word to justify the unjustifiable? I'll say it: Satan was the real hero of the Bible (JSYK, to me, the Bible's pure fiction to begin with, and so's the Torah and Q'uran, and bad fiction at that. I treat the three Abrahamic faiths the same, because they come from the same basic source. Get the fuck over it, nutcase).

And Jesus? He disobeyed Daddy. He didn't die for our sins. He died to tell his Dad to go fuck himself. But then, I wager you don't read your holy book. I bet it has such a thick layer of dust on it that the dust is starting its own space race.

It's your book, your rules, YOU burn in hell, Fubar4Life.

old comment by Anon-e-moose

@Troll/Poe/Nuts4Life

"Depends on how you interpret the Bible."

So you admit that the Bible isn't the literal 'Word' of God', to be obeyed, word-for-word, letter-for-letter, cover-to-cover. Literally.

Well, I guess that explains why right-wing fundies are so fond of picking those Scriptural cherries. They have to. Because Matthew 7:1, Revelation 21:8, James 2:14-26, 1 Timothy 5:13, and the 9th Commandment are the doctrinal traps that exposes them as the lying, hypocritical, nonChristians they really are. In word, action and thought.

And you've just fallen into that trap, which is essentially of your own making. Like I say: find for me just one quote here in FSTDT by a Quaker. Go on. If you're so sure you're not a lying, hypocritical fundie; that you're different, nay superior to them, beliefs-wise.

Remember the quote by Mohandas K. 'Mahatma' Gandhi? (emphasis added):

'I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.'

It exists for a reason. You - and all your ilk - are the very people he was talking about.

...oh, and God told me that it's not we Atheists who will be going to Hell, but you right-wing fundies - for not obeying Matthew 7:1, Revelation 21:8, James 2:14-26, 1 Timothy 5:13, and the 9th Commandment word-for-word, letter-for-letter literally, and daring to try and 'interpret' your way out of such, when you have no right to whatsoever. When it's the likes of the Quakers who do.

He also said that he's changed his mind completely*; the Bible is all bullshit that has absolutely no relevance whatsoever to the 21st Century, we Atheists (and non-fundies as a whole) are all forgiven, and we don't need to 'believe' after all. It's only you right-wing Fundamentalist Christians (& Islamist extremists) he hates nowadays.

He loves LGBT people, left-wingers, and generally anyone who don't act like complete dicks to everyone else. His only conditions for getting into the afterlife?: Treat others as you would want them to treat you. Commit acts of gratuitous kindness. As you would expect to be tolerated, thus be tolerant of others. Live and let live [/Amish & Mennonites, Quakers, Unitarian Universalists, Buddhists, Sufi Muslims, Humanists]. God's words (to me), not mine.

He told me so himself. And who are you to dare question His will, His unknowable, perfect plan? Prove me wrong, Troll/Poe/Nuts4Life.

...although I can't actually prove that this happened. But then of course, as you'll understand only too well dearie, who needs proof, when you've got 'Faith'?

*- Who says that he can't? He is Omnipotent, after all. As in he can do anything...!

Because you know the faith/belief/religion-destroying implications of when you try to say that he can't, nay, it's impossible for Him to change his mind...! >:D

old comment by Anon-e-moose

@Troll/Poe/Nuts4Life

"That's fine if you want to believe that, Moose. Enjoy living in your fantasy world."

Well, there you have it. Proof that fundies in the US have no concept of irony.

But on the other hand, your 'faith' is based on actual Reality, based on testable, falsifiable, replicatable, and thus provable evidence, pray tell...?

image

Oh no more, please Mr. Wilde, I am bereft of ribs! I'm afraid the likes of "A Brief History of Time" and "The Greatest Show on Earth: The Evidence For Evolution" means that your mere 'book' doesn't count for shit these days. Least of all in late 2005, when in a certain court case...:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmiller_v._Dover_Area_School_District#Decision

The Conservative Christian Judge John E. Jones III acknowledged that facts trump 'faith'. As a result, the law says so too; Romans 13:1-5, and all that jazz.

In the Texas Hold 'Em game that is Reality, the dealer shows A, K, A, Q, K. You just have a pair of threes. I - and every Atheist on the planet - have a pair too. Of Aces.

So no, you are the fantasist.

And then Troll/Poe/Nuts4Life was a failure at life. Especially a schizophrenic and proven hopeless pathological liar.

Can't deny facts dearie. Least of all that there isn't an 'Afterlife'. Prove me wrong, dearie. And no, the Bible - which is completely baseless - doesn't count. Only evidence allowed.

No evidencee, no believee. As exampled by Kitzmiller vs. Dover, even a Christian like you had to acknowledge facts, based on cold, hard, solid evidence. Then you wonder why - in this increasingly secular world, your light is dying. And you [i[know it.

...oh yes, that's right. You fundies are reduced to this form of denial known as 'religious faith' to protect you from the cold, hard reality of the only Truth:

'We're all gonna die.'

-Billy Sole (Sonny Landham), "Predator"

'Religious faith' The ultimate fantasy world.

No thanks. I prefer Reality And like we Atheists, you fundies will end up like leftover pizza: cold, clotted and stuck to the bottom of a box. Only, one of us is willing to accept Reality.

So you think that an 'afterlife' is what our 'souls' will go to, even though a book which can't back up even one of it's claims with evidence is fine? And the likes of you - fundie Dominionists - want everyone else to live in this fantasy world, by force if necessary, thus your continued and unjustifiable use of 'Turn or Burn'? (certainly your anal fixation, dearie!)

And I'm the one who lives in a 'fantasy world'? Am I the one claiming that what the Bible says is fact? Like I say: fundies in the US have no concept of irony. You've just proved it.

old comment by Anon-e-moose

@Troll/Poe/Nuts4Life

"There is plenty of evidence"

image

"And secondly, I think we must admit that the discussion of these disputed points has no tendency at all to bring an outsider into the Christian fold."

- C.S. Lewis

'Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for Atheism ever conceived.'

-Isaac Asimov

"And please stop with the 'anal fixation' nonsense. I am totally against the practice of sodomy."

What about all those times you've given us all that 'hope demons take you up the butt for eternity', or words to that effect many times here in FSTDT? So in future, you're not going to say such again - ever? Or are those just more examples of your schizophrenia, nay, dissociative identity disorder, when you posted as a - albeit same screenamed - alter ego? After all, your claim to have not being another poster who did so under your name are well known to us:

http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=74017&Page=3

Two words: IP trace. I refer you to GigaGuess's comment, dearie.

Mental handicap is so pitiful. Especially so in the case of right-wing Fundamentalist Christians. With the emphasis on...!

Fundie religious 'faith' The ultimate mental handicap. Three words: Joan of Arc (and what she experienced then is diagnosed today as Schizophrenia). There are people out there with far worse psychological afflictions, who have a much better grasp of reality.

(emphasis added):

'A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.'

-Friedrich Nietzsche

And neither can you, nor your ilk; certainly to the satisfaction of we Atheists. Not without completely destroying your 'beliefs' and 'faith', that is, when you realise that you can't, and never will. Ergo, Atheism. Q.E. and D., dearie.

(*awaits further cliche'd threats of 'Turn or Burn' via use of, for example (quote): 'Enjoy having a demon's finger up your butt for eternity, bitch', or words to that effect. Her own form of anal fixation*)

old comment by Anon-e-moose

@Troll/Poe/Nuts4Life

'Interpretation'. The usual excuse for fundies putting things in the Bible that were never there, or taking their own context out of context. Revelation 22:18-19 forbids that. If it doesn't directly say 'they will be anally raped', then it doesn't actually mean that, or was plain simple language too difficult for God? - if it was him who actually wrote the Bible himself, that is; nope, not seeing 'Written by God' on the cover...!

'shame and everlasting contempt'? Yeah, I'm sure an anagram program will be able to make 'Anally raped by demons for eternity' out of that, I'm sure. [/hyper-sarcasm] And 'allude'? Just a pathetic excuse for twisting words to mean what they never did. Like I say, God must find plain, simple language so difficult! [/mega-sarcasm]

I wonder what the result would be, if people representing the Plain English Campaign were to do a 'Plain English' version of the Bible, 'Crystal Mark' award and all...? No 'fable', 'metaphor' or 'allusion' allowed. The Jefferson Bible. It exists for a reason.

Oh, and as for:

"And please stop with the 'anal fixation' nonsense."

Isn't that a bit rich coming from you, considering...:

http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=67654&Page=7

@His4Life

"You'll have all the evidence you need when the flames start shooting up your heiney."

http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=73407&Page=2

@His4Life

"I'll be fucked before I let me kids go to see this shit. If I ever find my children reading a Harry Potter book, they're going to find that book halfway up their heineys. I don't care how old they are."

http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=77438&Page=3

@His4Life

"Also, I strongly disagree with the idea that faith or belief is good no matter what religion you follow. The Bible makes it clear that there is truth and there is the lie, there is a path that leads to God, and a path that leads to damnation. Believing in anything is silly, it is the object of your belief that matters. It's a matter of spending eternity in Heaven with Christ or spending eternity with Satan sizing up your doody hole in hell down below. That simple."

http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=77605&Page=4

@His4Life

"AnoneMoose, I'm seriously starting to hope the devil pops a hard one off in your sorry ass before you get tossed into the flames."

http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=82068&Page=2

@His4Life

"I'm sure they'll enjoy bending over for the devil..."

http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=82696&Page=6

@His4Life

"As for AnoneMoose, I am done conversing with you. You've proven time and again to be a waste of time. Enjoy taking it in the meatsack from the devil."

http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=84228&Page=4

@His4Life

"Once again I have no idea what you're talking about. Enjoy taking it in the ass on judgment day."

http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=83181&Page=4

@His4Life

"Bend over, Anon-e-Moose. Your master Satan is calling."

Which brings us right up to date:

http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=84511&Page=5

@His4Life

"And to answer your question, yes, Atheists are the ones going to hell, to spend eternity having their putty holes plugged by the devil. Have fun, creep."

http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=84310&Page=3

@His4Life

"What's so despairing about my lifestyle? I'm going to heaven to live for eternity with Christ. What have you got to look forward to? Spreading your buttcheeks for the devil's amusement?

'Knowing Anonymoose, you're probably looking forward to getting sodomized on judgment day. Pervert.'

'In modern English, we would write this statement "and some will take it in the butt and become an object of contempt." This is gross, but it is Biblical"

And therefore proof that God himself is obsessed with teh buttsecks too - even though he's supposed to consider it an 'abomination' Unthinkable.. If God created all things, then he created those particular homoerotic artworks, and not Tom of Finland.

So there you have it: not only has Troll/Poe/Nuts4Life fallen into an argumental - and logical - trap of her own making, so has God too. And therefore exposed their own latency towards that which they claim to 'hate', when actually they love it. Otherwise, they wouldn't give homosexuality a second thought, just like the vast majority of people.

Finally, I refer you to that last link, thus:

http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=67911&Page=3

@His4Life

"wow, I think I'vebeen on this board too long."

http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=67911&Page=4

@#1068535 (emphasis added)

'wow, I think I'vebeen on this board too long'

"There's a fairly easy fix for that, you know."

Your call. Unless you want to admit the only reason why you post here in FSTDT, is not because you want to be an apologist for all the fundies we've quoted, but purely because you're a sad, pitiful attention-seeker with dissociative identity disorder. After all, just show me a quote - least of all a post - by a Quaker here in FSTDT. Just one. Go ahead. If you can.

...oh yes, that's right. There isn't. Because they don't need to push their beliefs on everyone else. Because they're secure in their beliefs. That means psychologically too. They're not attention-seekers with a mental disturbance-based obsession about their beliefs, like that of fundies; an obsession that overrides all other things in their lives to the exception of one. Sure, they make such beliefs a part of their lives, but they never allow such to rule their lives. Unlike fundies, however. There's a word to describe their particular psychological disorder: Monomania.

And as proven time and again - and not just via you, dearie: fundies have an obsession about homosexuals and their activities in private, more than homosexuals themselves. The above quotes by you prove it.

Just as preacher Ted Faggard vehemently denounced homosexuals & their activities, but was later exposed as one, by your own admission you have subconscious desires to be cornholed by a lesbian with a strapon. You don't even have the right to deny it. One doesn't need to be a psychology major to figure you out, dearie. Freud, Kinsey, Masters & Johnson, Krafft-Ebing et al were right all along.

http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=82696&Page=6

@GigaGuess

"@His4Life
What is it with you fire and brimstone types and your anal fixation? Seriously, I know power bottoms who aren't as ass obsessed as you folks are!"

http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=83496&Page=3

@His4Life

"You guys are being unduly harsh to me because I am a believer in Christ. I admitted my idiotic mistake in making a crude comment and then trying to cover it up afterwards, but that does not mean I'm not a Christian or doing my best to follow Jesus. I'm sorry - the comment was out of line and my attempt to lie and cover it up was even more inappropriate. However, the second comment about the erection was truly not from me, and you are welcome to trace the IP address to prove it. There is a difference in that while the first comment was me spouting off in frustration, the second is clearly someone attempting to make me look stupid. Obviously I know that the question about evolution and wood is not about a man's penis, and I do not believe and never have believed that the Bible teaches that it is a sin for a man to have an erection. That is absolutely ridiculous.

Yes, I have damaged my credibility here and I deserve your rebuke. However, my comment, while an exaggeration, was biblically based, as the Book of Daniel does teach that the unsaved will be sodomized on the day of judgmenet. The second comment (about "wood") was not biblically based and was nonsensical.

I am sorry. I know who and what I am - a wretch in the eyes of God, even though a wretch forgiven - and I am woman enough to admit it. I hope you can forgive me. I don't think there is anything more I can say or do in relation to your comment, anon-e-moose."

(quote): "I hope you can forgive me", eh? Okay then. Despite your previous behaviour that has demonstrated you're nothing more than a drama-creating troll, and an attention-seeker with psychological issues, I'm willing to forgive you, as per your request. But with just one non-negotiable condition:

Leave FSTDT, and never darken this site's HTML code again. Ever.

It's the only possible way you'll be truly forgiven, if you're being truly honest as a 'saved' Christian is always supposed to be, 24/7/365 (lest they are hell-damned, despite any claims by them to the contrary; 'Grace by Faith Only'. 'OSAS', and all that jazz. Remember: Revelation 21:8). Like I say: your call.

And don't you dare try and worm your way out by saying 'I don't understand you!', your usual pathetic evasion tactic.

old comment by Anon

>>The verse I'm thinking of is in Daniel. It says that on the last day ("judgment day") many will rise, some to everlasting life, and others to shame and everlasting contempt. The word for "shame" means "homosexual shame" and alludes to sodomy<<

At the risk of feeding the troll:

You are either lying or incredibly mistaken.

Five seconds on Google and five minutes reading the commentaries on Daniel 12:2 compiled by Biblos.com informs me that the word you are referring to is "?????" ("hrpvt" in modern Romanization - note the absence of vowels in Old Hebrew) in the Masoretic text (this part of the book is written in Hebrew, while large portions of the middle are in Aramaic).

"?????"/"hrpvt" translates in modern Hebrew as "abuse" and the commentaries variously describe it as shame/mockery/public derision. There is nothing in this section at all related to any particular sexual conduct

Even accepting your premise that that section of the last chapter of the Book of Daniel should be read as a description of the afterlife, Your Argument Is Invalid

(but thank you for illustrating the problem inherent in what Schlafly is doing)

Edit: Apparently, I can't type Hebrew characters and have them appear here. That's annoying.

old comment by Anon-e-moose

@Anon

(emphasis added):

"hrpvt" translates in modern Hebrew as "abuse" and the commentaries variously describe it as shame/mockery/public derision. There is nothing in this section at all related to any particular sexual conduct

Your Argument Is Invalid"

Well, there you have it. And despite the no doubt denial/evasions we'll get in return, one can't deny facts (Fact: Troll/Poe/Nuts4Life isn't a Bible scholar of decades of study, thus she doesn't know what she's talking about). And the fact is this: In trying to twist meanings/'allusions', call them what you will in the Bible, hrpvt = abuse; shame/mockery/public derision, makes absolutely no mention - directly, as in plain language - of actual malexmale rape, And isn't that act supposed to be utterly forbidden in the Bible, under any & all circumstances?

...ah, but then, God doesn't even condemn abortion, despite the protestations to the contrary by fundie 'pro-lifers'. When their own 'Word of God' gives the lie (emphasis added):

Hosea 13:16: 'Samaria will be held guilty, For she has rebelled against her God. They will fall by the sword, Their little ones will be dashed in pieces, And their pregnant women will be ripped open.'

God aborted the first child born to David via Bathsheba. How many pregnant women must have miscarried as a result of the plagues God wrought upon Egypt? And how many pregnant women drowned in the 'Flood'...?

Hypocrisy, thy name is 'God of Unconditional* Love'

The only shame/mockery/public derision you talk about, dearie, is being pointed and laughed at.

image image

And then you wonder why you say "You guys are being unduly harsh to me"?

And because you are a believer in Christ' isn't the reason; anyone whose words, actions and thoughts are made of pure FAIL deserves only shame/mockery/public derision by being pointed & laughed at, until they admit their FAIL, and change their way of thinking until they no longer FAIL.

You say, re. we commenters in FSTDT: "You guys are being unduly harsh to me". Well, like I say, there's a simple solution to that: leave FSTDT forever.

...or become an anti-fundie commenter, like the non-fundie Christian commenters here in FSTDT. Like I say: your call.

*- Free Offer! God's Unconditional Love!

Terms and Conditions apply.

No thanks. Want me to be 'saved', God (if he exists)? I want absolutely no strings attached; seeing as he can't keep to his own moral standards, thus proving he is inferior. Ergo, Atheism. QED.

old comment by Anon-e-moose

You say "You guys are being unduly harsh to me". Here is the reason why:

http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=84623&Page=2

Read the quote by someone from the Ruptured Retards forum, then this by one of my fellow commenters:

@Pule Thamex

"It seems that your faith has no power other than to enable the glib spouting of lies and the easy manifestation of inhuman, often demonic, characteristics."

In just one statement does he say it all, nay, hit the nail on the head, about why you - and all other fundies like you - say what you do. Then you wonder why, after you say what you have, and not expect to have such, as well as it's speaker, to be subject to hrpvt = abuse, shame/mockery/public derision by being pointed and laughed at; also why FSTDT exists, and it's raison d'etre?!

Therefore, to borrow a quote from one of the "Star Wars" films: That is why you FAIL.

After all: just find for me a quote in FSTDT's archives by a Quaker. Just one. Then you do the maths, when you can't. PROTIP: there are Christians who are commenters here too.

old comment by His4Life

The Hebrew word for "abuse" there has a broad range of meanings, but was used in the ancient world to describe the widespread practice of sodomizing prisoners of war after a battle. This practice was more common in pagan cultures than in Israelite culture, since the Israelites were to keep themselves pure and homosexual sodomy was forbidden.

It's not that God 'approves' of sodomy or that it's not an abomination. In the context of Daniel, sinners are abandoned to their fate because of their rejection of God. It's clear from the context that this judgment is public and their shame and humiliation will be on display for all to see. This will include both men and women, so the punishment is not exclusively homosexual. The idea of "public shame and derision" certainly applies. These unsaved souls will then be cast into the lake fire, so it's important to remember that the "shame" described in this passage is only one aspect of our fate if we choose to die without knowing Christ.

old comment by Anon

@His4Life: Using the vocabulary of Wikipedia: Citation Needed on all of your statements about the meaning of the text. Your statements are getting increasingly bizarre and outrageous, so you will have to provide the evidence to support them.

I again refer you to all of the commentaries and translators notes compiled by Biblos.com for the meaning of that section, which say that it does not contain anything like what you say it does. As an example: if the word has a wide variety of meanings, even if one of those is the meaning you ascribe, how can you say that that's what it means in that phrase?

And I don't have anything else to say about this, since I am not a scholar of Biblical Hebrew, Aramaiac, or any of the other original languages used in composing the Bible.

So - thank you again for illustrating the problem with Schlafly's translation methods. And I am done.

old comment by His4Life

"And I don't have anything else to say about this, since I am not a scholar of Biblical Hebrew, Aramaiac, or any of the other original languages used in composing the Bible."

So what are your grounds for making statements about what the Bible does or doesn't mean? To a reader living in the era in which the Bible was written, the unpleasant meaning of the verse was plain as day. They would have heard it and said "oh, that's what happened when the Assyrians sacked our city, or when the Babylonians carried us away captive."

Anyway, this isn't a fun topic, so why not just bury the hatchet and move on? I'd much rather talk about God's love and grace than his wrath. Since obviously you've studied the Bible a little bit, just curious - what do you know about God's love and grace?

old comment by Anon

>>So what are your grounds for making statements about what the Bible does or doesn't mean? <<

I have checked the statements of various people with the necessary expertise, and cited my sources.

>>To a reader living in the era in which the Bible was written, the unpleasant meaning of the verse was plain as day. <<

Again: Citation Needed. You have not provided any evidence that the verse means what you said it means (or even to counter the evidence provided for other interpretations), and now you've added another unsupported statement about the mindset of the original readers of the document.

In fact, there is no way that that statement can be true as you have typed it, because there was no one era in which the Bible was written. The current text is a compilation of a bunch of older documents composed over hundreds of years and in many different languages. In this particular case, Wikipedia informs me that there is debate about where and when the Book of Daniel was composed, with estimates of when ranging over four centuries.

With regards to your last point: I do not believe in the God that you say you believe in, and I have no desire in debating theology here. I simply wanted to show that your arguments don't hold together, even accepting your premises. You should re-think them - both the logic, and the premises themselves.

And now I am done.

old comment by Anon-e-moose

@Troll/Poe/Nuts4Life

"The Hebrew word for "abuse" there has a broad range of meanings"

And that is why you FAIL.

Direct statements of 'abuse = rape' in the Bible, or both you and your book of fairytales FAIL in perpetuity, and therefore can never justify their existence.

Why couldn't God have stated in plain language in his own 'Word of God' which of course, he wrote himself: "Men having sex with each other is wrong under any & all circumstances, except for when there's nothing wrong with such, because I'm the 'do as I say, not as I do' kind of deity, because I'm the 'God of Love' who kills unborn babies, and all that jazz!"?

You tell me. Just before you try to explain to me why I'm supposed to worship, nay, believe in this so-called 'deity' of yours, without compromising my own moral superiority...?:

image

(PROTIP: The ten killed by Satan were only under the specific authorisation of God. As I've to kill so much as just one person to date, nor do I want to ever, I guess I must be going wrong somewhere, re. my own morality...?! [/hyper-sarcasm] God. The ultimate kid pouring boiling water into his ant farm.)

...and if you come out with 'Oh, but the Bible is the inspired Word of God', then you've annihilated not just your argument, but finally admitted that it wasn't directly authored by God (so this 'omnipotent' God can poof a universe world & animal life on it into existence, but he can't publish his own books...?!), but by errant, flawed, imperfect men. As schizophrenic and dissociative identity disorder-afflicted as it's 'believers', never mind having ideas above their stations - in thinking that they could ever justify coming up with such BS fairytales in the first place.

Thus the quote by Nietzsche 'A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.' proves he was right all along. Like I say: Joan of Arc would have been put in a nut farm today.

Fundamentalist Christianity. The ultimate mental handicap. Your own (past) behaviour proves that. So why should anything you say have the right to be acknowledged as fact, never mind listened to, again...?

Oh, one more thing: just consider what this particular thread is about: Andy Schaftafly's Conservative Bible Project. Would you consider him to be mentally handicapped in his own justifications for contravening Revelation 22:18-19? Then consider what he would then say to you to justify what he's doing to your 'Word of God', and his use of 'broad range of meanings', especially considering his motives in what he's doing...?

Meanwhile, we sane Atheists who consider both your 'KJV/NIV/whatever', and his 'CBP' to be one and the same: fairytales that can never justify their existences, will fetch the beer & popcorn, and watch the Fundie Fight...! >:D

Just keep proving we Atheists right, every time you post here in FSTDT, dearie. If you want to prove us wrong however, and think you've won the argument, you know what to do: leave FSTDT forever.

No evasion tactics by you allowed. In perpetuity.

--EDIT--

@Troll/Poe/Nuts4Life

"My pastor is a Union Theological Seminary graduate"

Okay. Now what do you personally know about the subject...? If you're not personally a Union Theological Seminary graduate, speaking and reading Aramaic, Hebrew and Biblical Greek; a Ph.D, then isn't anything you say - certainly on this issue, without help from anyone else - being off-topic? What do you know on the subject, based on your own decades of research...? Therefore, to reiterate what Anon says above: not only is your argument invalid, but everything you say on any subject/issue. Then you wonder why we consider it a bit rich of you, when you claim to know more on the subject than we do...?

Hypocrisy, thy name is sheeple fundie.

"your post is off topic and I don't know what you're talking to yourself about."

Evasion tactics not allowed. And more lies. If you keep saying 'I don't know', I don't understand you' ad infinitum, ad nauseam, then you admit you know nothing on any subject. Period. Your prime evasion tactic.

"I'm not really interested in arguing with you."

And here we have the ultimate evasion tactic. If you're not interested in arguing the toss - and the only answers you can provide is via your pastor spoon-feeding his own subjective opinions on Bible scripture:

image

Then you might as well have him replace you on FSTDT, seeing as you're nothing more than an attention-seeking troll with psychological issues, who - via admitting you know nothing on the matter - has finally admitted she has absolutely nothing to contribute to a proper debate.

And thus do you reveal your hand, troll. If you're true to yourself, then as you say (quote): 'I'm not really interested in arguing with you.'

So I guess that also applies to everyone in FSTDT, nay, the site as a whole. If you're 'not really interested', as you claim; or is that just another lie? If not, well then: go.

And never come back, if you don't want to admit you're just an attention-seeking troll with proven psychological issues (otherwise, you'd make like a Quaker and never be interested in the business of other people; secure in your beliefs). Because by your continuing to post here, do you prove we Atheists right.

old comment by His4Life

My pastor is a Union Theological Seminary graduate, speaks and reads Aramaic, Hebrew and Biblical Greek, and has given entire sermons on the connection between the word we're discussing and the practice of sodomy in ancient cultures. He has a PhD. Of course you're just going dismiss him, because he's a pastor and not a secular, atheistic scholar teaching at a university somewhere.

Anon-e-moose, as usual, your post is off topic and I don't know what you're talking to yourself about. Are you asking me if I believe the Bible is inspired? Yes. I also believe it is inerrant. Obviously you don't agree, and that's ok, that's your belief. I'm not really interested in arguing with you.

old comment by Anon-e-moose

@Troll/Poe/Nuts4Life

"Are saying that you want me to ask my pastor to post here??"

Yes. He clearly knows infinitely more than you do on the subject of Bible 'interpretation' than you ever will. Like I (and fellow commenter Anon) says, the fact you're reduced to getting your knowledge second-hand from a non-objective, non-unbiased source (who, no doubt like you, has the same right-wing, bile-tinted spectacled view of LGBT people, who 'interprets the Bible to suit his own attitudes):

image

Means that you can't even possibly justify your being here in FSTDT, never mind whatever you say on this (or any other) particular issue. When the simple fact is this: Gays are legal. Their very existence is legal. The intimate activities of gay people in private are legal. Gay marriage is legal. Prop. 8 is illegal. As is DADT.

Romans 13:1-5 says that the likes of you are going to Hell for refusing to agree with the law. Thus the Bible itself is illegal, for it's anti-gay statements. God is disobeying his own law.

"but they are one of the most liberal churches (theologically and socially)"

By jove, I do believe she's nearly got it! Now, just jump up a little, and the point will no longer be over your head, dearie.

How many Quakers are in the GOP? How many Quakers lobby Congress, etc? How many Quakers insinuate themselves into the political system, hoping to force their own Theocratic Dominionist agenda upon people who don't want such in the first place? How many Quakers are there quoted here in FSTDT, unjustifiably using psychological blackmail techniques, threats etc, to unjustifiably force their 'beliefs' on everyone else; 'Turn or Burn', and all that jazz; or worse...?

You tell me. Then mayhaps you'll get the point (mainly why I have no problem with Quakers & their ilk). And why you, a proven, nay, admitted liar, and proven attention-seeker with dissociative identity disorder, is nothing more than a troll - and therefore everything you say is invalid.

'The existence of a 'God' (certainly without proof to my satisfaction)? Invalid.
The existence of a 'soul'? Invalid.
'An afterlife'? Invalid.
'Heaven'? Invalid.
'Hell'? Invalid.
'Being anally raped by demons for eternity', as you keep trying to claim? Invalid.
The above happening, via the vaguest of 'interpretative' references in a book of fairytales? Invalid.

...unless this pastor of yours can come here and explain such, without reference to the Bible itself, nor using his own biased right-wing 'interpretation', but purely by peer-reviewed, non-religious, objective written sources.

...or is this 'pastor' you speak of a lie too, and you're getting your answers purely via Google? Considering your long track record of mendacity, I really don't know what to believe about you anymore. As whatever liars say is invalid, therefore there's no point in you being here anymore, as whatever you say has no justifications. Ever, thus you're a waste of time.

Besides...:

http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=50176&Page=5

...someone else has taken over your position, and is out-trolling you. You - and everything you can possibly say - is therefore irrelevant. Pointless. Now leave.

old comment by Anon-e-moose

@Troll/Poe/Nuts4Life

"I have no idea what you're talking about at this point."

Evasion tactic. Invalid.

"Since when was this discussion even about gay and lesbian people?"

You did, re. 'being taken up the butt by demons for eternity' being vaguely 'interpreted' in the Bible. And not just here, neither. Ergo your own anal fixation, when the Bible doesn't even say so directly. Proof of your mental instability/selective amnesia. Evasion tactic. Invalid.

"My pastor is actually more tolerant towards gays than I am."

Which is why he should replace you here. He's clearly more of a Christian than [i[you'll ever be. The fact he's more tolerant than you? I like him already...!

"I don't see what that has to do with the topic we're discussing."

You're so poisoned by your own unjustifiable way of thinking, especially with your proven serial mendacity, trolling behaviour, and obvious mental handicaps, that everything you say & think is invalid. But then, just ask the person being quoted in this actual discussion thread - which has everything to do with the topic, including what you're on about, re. 'interpretation' (certainly reinterpretation) of the Bible. Because like you, dearie, Andy Schaftafly...:

'In technical terminology... ~~he's a loon.'~~

~~-Dr. Silberman (Earl Boen), "The Terminator".~~

And as anything you say has no right to be considered credible (when you lie all the time), a question: what makes you think you should be here in FSTDT, other than admitting in all but word that you're nothing more than a troll with psychological issues; proven by your being an attention-seeker by being here?

But then, why not go to Conservapedia and tell Andy himself that what he's doing is wrong, certainly re. Revelation 22:18-19, and his own 're-interpretation' of the Bible. Then I wonder what would happen...?

Then you'd discover why you're here. Because you're a mentally handicapped attention-seeker, who would have been banned before now, because of your behaviour - if this were a conventional forum. Go to Conservapedia, Troll/Poe/Nuts4Life, and prove me - and Andy Schaftafly - wrong. If you dare, that is.

...oh, and if you dare say 'I have no idea what you're talking about at this point' again, that proves you're a liar. As well as being a liar, you also admit that you have an IQ of 0, therefore proving you're a moron too. And everything a moron says is invalid. Proof?:

~~"I'm not really interested in arguing with you."~~

~~"I have no idea what you're talking about at this point"~~

You said it, I didn't. Therefore a 'God' doesn't exist. An 'afterlife' doesn't exist; neither does a 'soul', nor a 'Heaven' or 'Hell', for that matter. Thus whatever you claim, re. 'demons' and whatever you 'think' they'll do to us, you have no right whatsoever to say to the contrary. A moron like you can't understand anything, therefore you're not qualified to even so much as have an 'opinion' on this - or any other - matter, never mind expect to be listened to anymore.

You can't even provide any extra-Biblical proof to the contrary, to prove me wrong. Because using the Bible itself to prove the Bible is invalid.

Therefore your religion is invalid. And as is anything you say invalid (thus your right to be listened to is invalid), your being here in FSTDT is also invalid. Unless you'd care to prove otherwise. To my satisfaction, that is.

old comment by Anon-e-moose

Troll/Poe/Nuts4Life

"Why do I have to prove anything to *your* satisfaction?"

Because if you can't, then - not taking into account the fact you're a lying, trolling retard who doesn't have the ability to have a coherent thought to be able to have an 'opinion', least of all show me credible evidence (and no, not using the Bible to explain the Bible) - then all your claims are invalid.

"Who are you and why should I care?"

You care enough to keep posting here in FSTDT, least of all this particular thread. Why, one would think that... you're not secure in your beliefs!? The Quakers don't care about secularism, nor how Atheism is on the increase, nor how homosexuality is accepted today. Because they don't feel threatened in the first place. They're not insecure*. Thus they don't need to 'speak out' on matters that don't affect them in any way - least of all push their beliefs - on an internet-based comment site. They don't particularly care, nor need to show concern about FSTDT, and why should they - unlike you

...unless of course, you'd care to prove otherwise. And leave FSTDT for good.

*- If Andy Schaftafly as secure in his beliefs, he wouldn't bother with his 'CBP' 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it'. That phrase exists for a reason. But then, 'Reason' is an alien concept to right-wing fundies. Otherwise, they wouldn't be right-wing fundies in the first place.

They'd be Quakers. Buddhists. Sufi Muslims (my physician is one. A very intellectual chap he is). Even Unitarian Universalists. You have one of the latter to thank for the ability to post your BS here, dearie: Sir Tim Berners-Lee (he could've made trillions from his invention, the WWW. Instead, he gave it away for free, for the betterment of humanity. His invention has changed the world - and quicker - than your so-called 'Jesus' ever has).

old comment by His4Life

What point are you asking me to prove, anyway? You asked me to provide evidence that the Bible teaches that sinners who die without grace will be humiliated through sodomy before being cast into the lake of fire. I cited the appropriate verse and backed it up with a clear and logical explanation of the cultural context and my reasons for believing that the verse alludes to this ancient practice. I also pointed out that this view is taught and accepted in at least one major seminary, which, incidentally, Union is considered one of the more liberal seminaries in the country.

Biblical cultures were not so much concerned with physical wellbeing as they were with honor and shame. Even today, sodomy is a common expression of public shame and derision in the middle east. For example: http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/middle-east/111024/gaddafi-sodomized-video-gaddafi-sodomy

www.compassdirect.org/english/country/pakistan/18035

In the big sweep of the bible, the question of how people will be treated on judgment day isn't really that big of a theme. I'd much rather talk about God's grace or some of the good things in the Bible then dwell on this issue. I made my case for why I believe what I believe about the verse in context and I don't feel a need to continue discussing it.

old comment by His4Life

www.compassdirect.org/english/country/pakistan/18035

old comment by Anon-e-moose

@Brain_In_A_Jar

Hmmm, what was that bleating in the background? Must be a mendacious, trolling, mentally handicapped retard with what she thinks is an 'opinion', who's so secure in her 'beliefs' that she doesn't care about this site - and clearly hasn't read her Bible - otherwise she'd know about this titbit of Scripture:

Matthew 10:14 (KJV; emphasis added): 'And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.'

Indeed, as per her quote 'why should I care?', and also 'what is your thing with Quakers?', the same can be asked of her, What is your thing with FSTDT, if you don't care?

Well, there you have it. Proof that she's a psychologically afflicted attention seeker; also:

http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=67911&Page=4

@Troll/Poe/Nuts4Life

"I think I'vebeen on this board too long."

...a liar.

Matthew 10:14. Also 9th Commandment & Revelation 21:8. After all, why is she here? What is she trying to prove?

...oh yes, that's right. Except for proving that - like her - God has an anal fixation too (thus annihilating that part of Leviticus the likes of her rely on, to try and justify their unjustifiable anti-LGBT bigotry), she can't. And never will. Matthew 10:14 dearie, Matthew 10:14.

old comment by Anon-e-moose

What was that bleating in the background, Brain_In_A_Jar? Must be a trolling monomaniac (like I say: mentally handicapped) self-admitted 0-IQ retard who doesn't understand anything, least of all her own Bible.

But then, for a so-caled 'deity' therein who is so fixated on people being punished in such a way - which contradicts what he ruled against in Leviticus, only serves to conclusively prove that not only is he a hypocrite, he gets off on the mere thought of such happening to others; as do some of his followers. Otherwise, he'd never give such a second thought, nor even mention it in his Holy Writ, for fear of being thought of a Monomaniac, nay, obsessed with such.

God is so far in his own closet, he's prancing gaily with Aslan & Tumnus, whilst wearing a T-shirt with a design of an artwork by homoerotic artist Tom of Finland on such.

But then, by being a hypocrite (condemning homosexual acts one second, yet, revelling in the thought of such - as do some of his followers - the next), a la one particular follower:

image

Proves that he's a contradiction to himself, therefore he doesn't exist. And Troll/Poe/Nuts4Life is just a sad, pathetic, mendacious, retarded, mentally handicapped troll, who can't justify being here, nor her so-called 'beliefs' that have absolutely no right to exist.

...in the mindsets of normal, sane people, that is. And that mindset is growing in number. The light of fundie religion is dying. And they know it.

...oh, and speaking of contradiction, Troll/Poe/Nuts4Life has just contradicted herself, by admitting that if homosexuality is just 'shameful', in the same way that owning slaves wasn't shameful in the Bible, but is considered worse than shameful today, then the Bible - and therefore God (who never condemns slavery in such) - is worse than Evil. Therefore he has no right whatsoever to be judgemental in any way, when our own morality - in not only condemning slavery but making such illegal - proves we are more than infinitely superior to him.

...but then, by definition, I am more than infinitely superior to him. At least I exist*.

And if it's not 'about homosexuality', then she's just contradicted her & her ilk's whole justifications for being anti-LGBT. If it's merely about what is supposedly 'shameful' - and attitudes change (remember: slavery) - then her mere 'opinion' about what certain consenting adult people do in private is even less invalid; nay, with homosexuality becoming more & more accepted, said 'opinion' can't possibly justify it's right to exist, as it's seen more & more as unjustifiable bigotry.

Bigotry against people just because of their skin colour wasn't considered shameful, once upon a time. So I wonder why the same about certain peoples' lifestyles is allowed to exist...?

...but legislation that effectively forces acceptance of such people is putting a stop to those attitudes. Good. The Civil Rights Movement years ago certainly did so for another set of people.

God never condemned slavery in the Bible. Slavery is Evil. Bigotry is Evil. Legislation that destroys such unjustifiable evil is proof of our more than infinite superiority. That which is evil has no right to exist.

Hitler hated one certain athlete in the 1936 Berlin Olympics. He used slaves as labourers. He arbitrarily exterminated people for the crime of existing. He hated homosexuals.

He was a Christian; also a right-winger:

image

God hates homosexuals. As do his fundie followers. Who are Christian. And right-wing.

[/Reverse Godwin]

So many good people died in WWII to ensure such bigoted attitudes, nay, 'opinions' about what is & isnt 'shameful' have no right to exist.

*- Oh, and if you want further conclusive proof of the nonexistence of God, Brain_In_A_Jar, look no further than:

http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=12160&Page=1

As demonstrated by the mentally handicapped Troll/Poe/Nuts4Life, the above example emphasises this quote (emphasis added):

'A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.'

-Friedrich Niezsche

Nor does 'faith' in a book of fairytales, neither. One that's non-peer reviewed (by independent, non-theological, secular scholars, thus eliminating philosophical/doctrinal bias), and therefore whatever it says has no right whatsoever to be acknowledged as fact, never mind have the right to claim any kind of validity whatsoever, other than what it actually is: fiction. As further proved by this thread's actual subject matter: Andy Schaftafly's CBP. Chalk one more up to the superiority of Atheist thinking. And thus why Atheism's star is in the ascendant.

old comment by Anon-e-moose

There's that bleating again. Oh well, it's of no consequence.

Fact: there are heterosexual couples who find anal very pleasurable. And not just the female receiving such, neither. Three words: Strapons. Prostate Gland.

Fact: There are men who find humiliation & 'shame' very sexually stimulating; they even pay good money for the privilege too: Four letters: BDSM

At certain fetish clubs, there are gay men who - in separate section(s) of said clubs - indulge in anal sex with others watching. One word: Exhibitionism.

As for what to expect in a so-called 'Hell', just ask the survivors of napalm bombings in Vietnam. Including that little girl running from her just-napalmed village in that classic photograph. Also, the survivors of Hiroshima & Nagasaki. Who still suffer to this day.

Try telling them that there's worse to come...?

Oh, and I wonder, Brain_In_A_Jar, if our resident mendacious trolling, mentally handicapped retard with her constant combined 'Turn or Burn'/anal fixation revenge fantasy she uses against we 'heathen' Atheists, has ever met & talked with a survivor of the Nazis' ultimate death factory: Auschwitz? I have. Whilst he's Jewish (hence him being in Auschwitz), he told me that - whilst he still doesn't eat pork - he's no longer a practicing Jew. He said that, since the Holocaust started for him & his family/friends who didn't survive, his beliefs were destroyed along with the rest of the Six Million. He endured infinitely worse tortures/humilations/shame at the hands of the SS guards than mere 'Sodomy' could ever inflict upon him or anyone else. As he said to me, 'The Covenant was broken. God abandoned us. He is no longer here.'

He also told me that he no longer fears what's to come. As he told me (quote): 'I have already lived through worse than Hell.'

...as for yours truly, a 'Hell' holds no fears for me, neither:

http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=12160&Page=1

Being supposedly 'shamed' by a demon for eternity is nothing, in a fiction of a scenario only vaguely suggested in an equal fiction of a book, compared to being eaten by a lion in reality.

Hell, even if Pascal is right, re. his 'wager', I could even get to like it; the Prostate Gland in the male anal area is a major erogenous zone, after all...!

old comment by Anon-e-moose

Oh, there's that bleating again, Brain_In_A_Jar, by our resident mendacious, trolling, mentally handicapped, 0-IQ retard who thinks that we Atheists give a shit about fictional 'threats' based on a work of fiction.

Especially when once considers that there are people who get a sexual thrill out of pain being inflicted on them. And considering how fundies such as Troll/Poe/Nuts4Life think we Atheists are sexually 'depraved' amoral heathens, then surely the fact that sexual 'depravities' surely include masochism, therefore a place of eternal pain would be Heaven to us.

'Demons to some, Angels to others.'

-Lead Cenobite (Doug Bradley), "Hellraiser"

A relative of mine suffers from awful back pain. But he got used to it.

Like I say, considering the example of that fundie dickhead who got eaten by a lion in that zoo in Kiev (1 Thessalonians 5:21, and all that jazz), also the survivors of napalm bombings in Vietnam - to say nothing of those who survived infinitely worse in Hiroshima & Nagasaki; and of course the survivor of Auschwitz I've met & talked with, then a so-called 'Hell' - even a 'contextualised' one - if such a fictional place exists [/Spartan Laconic Wit] holds no fears for me.

Contextually speaking, of course. [/hyper-sarcasm] And I wonder what Troll/Poe/Nuts4Life could possibly say to said Vietnamese, Japanese, and Jew, to convince them that's there's far worse to come for them?!

...but then, of course threats by fundies who think they have the right to force - via psychological blackmail methods such as 'Turn or Burn' - their unjustifiable 'beliefs' on others (as a method of controlling* people) are the last resort of the desperate, delusional...:

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/07/29/texas.polygamist.jeffs/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=82980&Page=1

'I, the Lord God of heaven, ask the courts to cease the prosecution of my holy ways. There will be a judgment against all those who prosecute the church. ... I shall let all people know of your unjust ways. I will bring sickness and death. Let this cease.' -Warren Jeffs

...and deranged.

But hey, she can't help being a schizophrenic:

http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=74017&Page=3

...and therefore mentally handicapped, can she eh, the poor dear? Least of all here in FSTDT, the poor, pathetic attention-seeker she is.

I pity the mentally handicapped like her, Brain_In_A_Jar. That's religious 'faith' for you. The ultimate mental handicap. Just ask Andy Schaftafly.

One deluded person = insane. Two or more delusional people = religion.

Being a non-superstitious, reason-based, forward-thinking, logical, sane Atheist. Feels good, man.

Fundies such as Troll/Poe/Nuts4Life can no longer threaten we Atheists. And that's what truly scares them.

We're not threatening. We are releasing a message. [/mega-sarcasm]

...oh, and she's being paged here...:

http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=843

*- 'Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.'

-Seneca the Younger

old comment by His4Life

Jesus said that God will destroy both "body and soul" in hell. For your sake, I hope your are a masochist, but even then, there will be things in hell that will torment you if you take perverted pleasure from the pain of being burnt alive. The separation from God and the rest of humanity is torment enough for anyone.

Look up Bill Wiese. 23 minutes in hell. Great book and he has spoken at my church. I believe he's a man inspired by God and there have been no inconsistencies in his account or evidence that contradicts the scriptures. He's been put here to warn others of what is to come.

http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Christianity/2006/03/23-Minutes-In-Hell.aspx

old comment by Anon-e-moose

More of that bleating. Hmmmmm...!

"23 Minutes in Hell", eh? The survivor of Auschwitz endured far longer - and infinitely worse than that. This so-called Bill Wees' is a wuss compared to the man I met & talked with.

And is clearly as deluded as Troll/Poe/Nuts4Life is eh, Brain_In_A_Jar? The human imagination is a powerful thing indeed.

Whereas the Auschwitz survivor I talked with - and others like him - had wished that what happened to him was just a nightmare.

Like I say, that's fundies for you: deluded, deranged, and desperate to force their unjustifiable 'beliefs' on others, when they have absolutely no right to whatsoever.

...and still no answer from her about what she could possibly say to that Auschwitz survivor I've met; also those Vietnamese napalm & Japanese atom bomb survivors, to make them think that there's worse in store for them...? I wonder why...?

Oh, and Troll/Poe/Nuts4Life should cop for this:

http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=84783

I refer her to the first comment by Brendan Rizzo. Also the pic posted by Percy Q. Shunn.

Like I say: one deluded person = insane. Two or more people sharing the same delusion = religion.

'Torments & tortures of Hell', eh...?! Frankly, being exposed to Vogon Poetry, or have my head nailed to the floor by Dinsdale Piranha, then exposed to vicious sarcasm, dramatic irony, metaphor, bathos, puns, parody, litotes and... satire by his brother Doug is infinitely worse than any so-called 'Separation from (a proven nonexistent) God' or what said Vietnamese/Japanese napalm/atom bomb survivors - or that fundie nutter (both the one making his own Hell, and the other eaten by a lion) - have already experienced. [/Doug Piranha-levels of sarcasm]

...although the sight of whippets' heads being bitten off by a man named 'Kierkegaard' would squick out even God & make him throw up eh, Brain_In_A_Jar?! XP X3 >:D

Oh, and how, I wonder, can 'separation from something that doesn't exist' when he already never existed, be a bad thing, when I already know that said something is a fiction? But then, being the logical, reason-based thinking, sane Atheist that I am, why should I care about not experiencing an unjustifiable delusion called 'faith' in the first place?

old comment by His4Life

I don't understand what you want me to say about the holocaust survivor, napalm victim, Hiroshima survivors, etc. What is the relevance? If they were here in front of me, the only thing I would say 'to' them is God loves you more than you'll ever know, and I'm sorry for what you've suffered. I would probably embrace them or break into tears.

If you're trying to compare these things to hell, tough, I don't see your point. No matter how horrible the circumstances in life, a person could "escape" by death, and there was always hope that rescue would come. Hell is eternal. There is hope of reprieve and a person cannot even find "relief" through death. So even if you think that earthly circumstances are "worst" than hell, there is no comparison. 23 minutes is not the norm. That man is a Christian who was given a vision. A person who is cast into hell for judgment does not come out again after 23 minutes, 23 days, 23 years or 23 billion years. They are there to stay, sadly.

old comment by Anon-e-moose

There go those bleatings again, Brain_In_A_Jar. Especially that 'I don't understand' one we keep hearing. But then, isn't that an admission of retardation? Thus said bleatings - now & in the future - continue to demonstrate the absolute FAIL of the one making such (only she's not prepared to admit that her 'beliefs' are wrong; least of all her relevance, nay, justifications for being here in FSTDT).

If that Jewish man I'd met who'd survived Auschwitz could hear what she's saying, I doubt anything she could say - least of all about a so-called 'Hell' - could possibly change his mind, re. his beliefs. Or lack of such, during and after his experiences in the Nazis' ultimate death factory

Therefore anything she can possibly say has no relevance whatsoever to anyone else. Reality. 'Fiction'. That Jewish man has lived through a reality infinitely worse than anything that could be conceived in mere films such as "Saw" or "Hostel", never mind a book of equal fairytales.

So how can mere 'fairytales' in a book called the 'Bible' possibly scare we Atheists?

Reality. Fiction. Insanity. 'Faith'. Delusion. Just ask the 909 people at Jonestown. Or those 'Heaven's Gate'-rs.

One deluded person = insane. Two or more people sharing the same delusion = religion.

Atheism = Reality.

Everything Troll/Poe/Nuts4Life claims = Delusion. Try telling the survivors of Auschwitz (and the other death factories; Bergen-Belsen, Treblinka, Dachau, Sobibor etc) like that man I met & talked with - who have similarly purged their minds of any previous religious 'beliefs' as a result of their experiences - that they're wrong, dearie.

That Auschwitz survivor I met and talked with. Like me, he's an Atheist.

Certainly since the Holocaust started for him & his family/friends. Who, unlike him however, didn't survive.

old comment by Anon-e-moose

Hmmmm, more bleating.

Why apologise, dearie? As that survivor of Auschwitz said: 'The Covenant was broken. God abandoned us. He is no longer here.'

Seems that your so-called 'God' didn't give a fuck - for him, least of all his family. All of whom ceased to exist in Auschwitz too.

So why should your so-called 'God' apologise? If he was truly sorry, he'd have never allowed the Holocaust to happen, as per that Covenant. Which therefore proves God doesn't exist. As that Jewish man said. Care to say he's wrong - or dare to?

The delusional '23 minute' nightmare of a mentally handicapped fundie. An equally mentally handicapped fundie who 'believes' that what he claims is 'fact'.

http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=512

Compared to the years of what that Jewish man - in Reality - suffered in Auschwitz, to paraphrase the film "A Few Good Men": 'Facts'? You can't handle the Facts!

Fact: the Holocaust happened. One particular Jewish man survived. His entire family didn't.

Fact: The above fact proves a 'God' doesn't exist. Prove that Jewish man wrong in becoming an Atheist as a result of his experiences.

Fact: That '23 Minutes' is just a deluded fantasy, nothing more than a nightmare put down into words as a perverted form of 'dream interpretation' therapy. With the emphasis on 'Therapy'. Y'know, how the mentally handicapped are treated.

The '23 Minutes in Hell' author = insane

One deluded person = insane. Two or more people sharing the same delusion = religion.

Fact: Via the above - certainly the example of that Auschwitz survivor - your right to claim the existence of a so-called 'Hell' is invalid. As is your so-called 'beliefs' you base such on, in turn, the religion, nay the book of fairytales such is based on: Invalid.

Like I say: that Jewish man - whilst still not eating pork - isn't a practicing Jew. He's an Atheist. Auschwitz made sure of that. Dare to say his being an Atheist - and the reasons why he's one - is invalid? And thus even dare to think that my reasons for being an Atheist are invalid, however? Do you dare to say to him that he'll go to 'Hell' for no longer 'believing', just as I will, equally?

Yet you dare to say I'm 'angry'? You've never talked with a Holocaust survivor.

My meeting & talking with him was years after the election of Maggie Thatcher (*spit*). The real Antichrist. The main reason for my more than infinite hatred of anyone - or anything right-wing, for what she did to my country

To my knowledge, the US - in WWII - never had so much as one bomb dropped on them by the Luftwaffe, never mind attacked by a V-1 or V-2. By Adolf Hitler. The architect of the 'Final Solution to the Jewish Problem'

The most the US had was Pearl Harbour.

Like I say, re. that Jewish man: 'The Covenant was broken. God abandoned us. He is no longer here.'

Your call, dearie. If you have any shame left, re. your continued unjustifiable use of 'Turn or Burn' psychological blackmail techniques in you even more unjustifiable forcing of your equally unjustifiable right-wing 'beliefs' on others, when you have absolutely no right to whatsoever, and if you want to truly 'apologise' (when your so-called 'God' doesn't even have the guts to do so himself - certainly to that Jewish man), then you won't even reply to this comment. You'll leave FSTDT for good, and never return.

PROTIP: Hitler was a Christian:

image

'Gott Mit Uns' translates as 'God With Us', for the hard of thinking like you, who don't understand anything.

Hitler was a right-winger.

[/Reverse Godwin]

My more than infinite hatred of everything - and everyone - right-wing, as explained above. Right-wing Fundamentalist Christianity.

You do the maths, dearie.

Here endeth the lesson.

I won't be commenting in this thread again. This is it. And if you have any Shame left, as explained above, neither will you. Or anywhere else in FSTDT, Troll/Poe/Nuts4Life.

One last fact: Atheism doesn't threaten others who don't accept such with eternal torture. And that's the difference. Hitler. God. No difference. Then you wonder why I'm an Atheist?:

http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=512

It's all bullshit. Lies. Evil.

I've had it with you.

old comment by His4Life

Yes, I believe your friend is wrong if he is an atheist. God did not break his covenant with Israel. God's covenant with Israel was that the Messiah would come through the Jewish people. He fulfilled his covenant by giving them Jesus Christ as their savior. This promise is just as much a living reality for your friend as it is for you. I am sorry for what he went through. I will sincerely pray for him. I hope he finds peace and serenity in his life.

But, Anon-e-Moose, why are you so angry? You're not a holocaust survivor, I presume? What has happened in your life to make you so bitter? I'm not trying to preach to you or be crass. It's apparent you're unhappy right now. I'm just trying to reach out to you as a fellow human being who has found grace with God. You know, before I came to Christ, I was homeless for a period of time and thought I had lost everything. I even thought about giving up on life. But God restored me and now I have a beautiful marriage, a happy family and am blessed with many good things. Can God work his goodness in your life too, Anon-e-Moose? You've got everything to gain. What've you got to lose?

old comment by Talmyr

@His4Life

WTF? Quakers are pagan? What the heck rubbish are you spouting now?

As someone who was brought up Quaker, they are some of the most truly Christian folks I have ever met - they don't just believe in the whole "God is Love" - they *live* it. Quakers are most definitely Christian, believing in God for sure, and the only reason that they don't use the Bible in 'services' is that they do NOT hold services in the traditional sense. No-one preaches at them - people only speak as they are moved to - but it is nearly always based on some Biblical verse or other. They are encouraged to /think/ about meanings, not blindly accept and swallow what they are spoon-fed.

Now, I am a pagan, and it is very different from Quakerism - other than respect for other people, beliefs, and the planet around us.

His4Life, while I appreciate that you have your strong beliefs, please do not spout what I shall charitably call 'incorrect' tales.

Andy Schlafly #fundie conservapedia.com

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