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Quote# 88876

*long debunking of his previous points, specifically about inbreeding if only two animals of every species survived the great flood as well as freshwater lif being unable to survive in saltwater*


As for inbreeding, where's your proof that he didn't choose the best and most diverse examples of each species? That could've happened, and that would solve your problem.

As for saltwater and freshwater, God could've just split the waters and made them not mix, like when Moses split the red sea.

LogiChristianity, NationStates 56 Comments [8/10/2012 4:14:50 AM]
Fundie Index: 68
Submitted By: acebrock
WTF?! || meh
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Pup

Why even bother with the ridiculously-ignorant-of-genetics-and-biology diversity argument when you then trump that with "God can do it because he's magical"?


8/10/2012 4:23:55 AM

Leighton Buzzard

I think the bullshit pseudo-science approach is intended to win converts, rather than a statement of something the fundie actually believes. Problem is, it don't work too well.

8/10/2012 4:38:47 AM

Draken

He could also have created LogiChristianity just yesterday out of remainders from the veterinary industry, completely with internet history and all.

And why not.

8/10/2012 4:39:29 AM



Yeah, you know ... magic.

8/10/2012 4:53:32 AM

Doubting Thomas

Arguing religion is easy when you can just say "Goddidit."

8/10/2012 4:56:58 AM

David B.

"choose the best and most diverse examples of each species? That could've happened, and that would solve your problem."

For precisely one generation, then all the offspring of that first pair would have an average 1/4 of their alleles in common. It doesn't matter how diverse the parents are, the next generation have no option but to mate with their brother or sister.

"God could've just split the waters and made them not mix"

This is the "continual miracle" excuse, and it fails under its own 'logic'. If God is required to continually prevent the mixing of fresh and salt water to preserve all the fish, why not just magically make all the other animals able survive in water, or simply transport his chosen few through time to the post flood world?

Any logical analysis of the problems in the flood story forces its defender to up the ante of God's miracle working until God is having to continually work miracle at an epic level to preserve the story of a few people surviving in a boat. It soon becomes apparent that the amount of magical explanation involved in making the story work dwarfs that necessary to achieve the actual ends. God would have to have deliberately chosen almost the most inefficent, complicated and maniacally clumsy way of achieving his goal.

The "continual miracle" defence is basically arguing that the flood story is perfectly rational if God is insane.

8/10/2012 5:08:36 AM

John_in_Oz

Yes, we know that the Ark story could seem to make sense if you add a hundred more miracles that aren't documented in the Bible, including miracles that erase all evidence that the flood occurred.
It's just that believers don't know that you need the extra hundreds of undocumented miracles added to the Bible story.Not that it makes sense to make a worldwide flood when omnipotence implies god could make all evildoers drop dead with a single thought.

8/10/2012 5:13:43 AM

Deep Search

I still don't get how fundies and other religious folk seem to be totally fine with incest and inbreeding and support these views. Unless god whipped up a whole batch of new humans and other animals, that's a whole barrel full of inbred.

And if your go to answer is "god magic," you're just flat out wrong. The stories in the bible are illogical fucking ridiculous myths. Anyone who takes them seriously is an idiot. The end.

8/10/2012 5:18:35 AM

Amaryllis

Diverse individuals? dafuq?

8/10/2012 5:22:51 AM

Mister Spak

The Flying Spaghetti Monster can do those things.

Harry Potter can too.

8/10/2012 5:53:22 AM

Alfador

"only two animals"
"most diverse examples"

DIVERSITY DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY, GOODNIGHT.

8/10/2012 5:56:37 AM

dionysus

As for inbreeding, where's your proof that he didn't choose the best and most diverse examples of each species? That could've happened, and that would solve your problem.

Most diverse? You only get two alleles for each gene maximum, four at maximum between the two individuals. Ignoring the fact that two creatures with two completely different sets of alleles for all genes are two different species and thus cannot produce viable offspring, that still hardly solves anything and doesn't account AT ALL for the diversity of bred species such as cats and dogs. You can't get specimen as different as seen below with only 4 alleles per gene maximum.



That's already 5 different alleles for color alone.

As for saltwater and freshwater, God could've just split the waters and made them not mix, like when Moses split the red sea.

Sure, it's magic, why not? But as I stated in the previous quote, if your God is going to use magic during the flood then he really sucks at it because there are so many better solutions including simply zapping all of the evil people in the world with an evil-seeking lightning bolt. Instead he chose to drown everything in the world, including guys like these:

8/10/2012 6:11:18 AM

Philbert McAdamia

Well, hell, Moses. Sure, if Moses could do his magic shit maybe God could pull of some big tricks, too. He was a lot like Moses, ya know.

8/10/2012 6:11:46 AM

rebel

Because even if they were the "best and most diverse examples" they would eventually inbreed. You need a few more than two to keep the species viable. Honestly, how hard is it to understand very basic genetics?

8/10/2012 6:20:58 AM

Filin De Blanc

Because as we all know, if you're good and diverse, inbreeding won't cause any problems.

8/10/2012 6:25:57 AM



"God could have done XYZ" isn't science.

8/10/2012 6:57:04 AM

Horsefeathers

"As for inbreeding, where's your proof that he didn't choose the best and most diverse examples of each species?"

Noah had an advanced DNA lab at his disposal? Who knew?

"That could've happened, and that would solve your problem."

No, it wouldn't.

"As for saltwater and freshwater, God could've just split the waters and made them not mix, like when Moses split the red sea."

Yet again I'll point out that once you accept the existence of an omnipotent entity, you have to accept that anything is possible. However, you're still going to need some evidence no matter what you propose, so all of these hypothetical "he could have" postulations are rather pointless in the end anyway.

8/10/2012 6:57:07 AM

Oh My Dog!

You do realize none of this is actually in the Bible don't you? Isn't there something in Revelation about not adding to the Scriptures?

yeah...

I don't think you quite have a grasp on how genes and inheritance work either.


8/10/2012 7:28:26 AM

breakerslion

"As for inbreeding, where's your proof that he didn't choose the best and most diverse examples of each species?"

Manbearpig!

Alzo, dots diverse eggsample of de chifting proof-burden I haf ever zeen!

(Wow. That really wasn't worth it. Sorry.)

8/10/2012 7:30:25 AM

tmarcl

As others have pointed out, the problem with your argument is that the more you add "God could have done this and this miracle," the more ridiculous a scenario you create. Even assuming an omnipotent being who would have been able to perform all the miracles required with no difficulty, you still have the problem of, "why?"

If all of this herculean effort is necessary to carry 8 humans and 2 of every "kind" through a 40 day flood, why do it? There are so many better solutions available - up to and including just redoing creation. It only took him (if I remember correctly) three days to create all of the flora and fauna the first time. What's three more days?

8/10/2012 7:45:20 AM

freako104

Umm.. No. Just no. It would not have solved the inbreeding problem

8/10/2012 8:05:49 AM

Flah

If God were able to do all this cool stuff with the water, one wonders why he bothered with the ark in the first place instead of just leaving the animals in their own habitats with walls of water surrounding them. It sure saves him the trouble of forcing them to travel halfway around the world to Noah and then halfway around the world again back to their homes. God may be omniscient and omnipotent but he seems to have a really crap imagination.

8/10/2012 8:19:59 AM



if you only have 1 male and one female of a species there is still the problem of genetics. Breeding brother/sister, father/daughter or mother/son gets you problems which in livestock you cull.


God could have done many things, its odd the bible does not mention any of them. The flood supposedly reformed the earths surface but many species of both fresh and salt water fish and other aquatic creatures survived ?


8/10/2012 8:21:30 AM

John

where's your proof that he didn't choose the best and most diverse examples of each species?

(a) That still wouldn't solve the inbreeding problem.

(b) There's nothing in the Bible that says God chose the animals for Noah.

(c) God didn't do that with humans - the only genetic diversity was three people - Noah's daughter in laws.

God could've just split the waters and made them not mix

Rain water is always fresh.

8/10/2012 8:27:34 AM

Iel

The problem here hinges on "could have," which is not definite; science deals with providing verifiable proof of things. "Could have" is not enough, dearie.

8/10/2012 9:14:10 AM
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