As for all religions having a history of violence, that is true. But biblical Christianity is not a religion, nor has it been involved in violence. The crusaders could not have been true Christians or they would not, under the banner of the Cross, have killed innocent and defenseless Jews all along the way to Jerusalem and throughout the entire land of what was once Israel and had become known as “Palestine.”
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Biblical Christianity isn't a religion you say? The IRS will be expecting some back taxes then.
Also, no true Scotsman arguement being used on the entirety of the crusades, I think that's the first I've heard that one.
But biblical Christianity is not a religion
Bullshit.
nor has it been involved in violence.
Bullshit.
The crusaders could not have been true Christians
Bullshit. You just don't get to claim that any Christian who does something which makes Christianity look bad aren't "true" Christians. People like Fred Phelps are Christians whether you like it or not.
FAP FAP FAP
Ketchup
FAP FAP FAP
Haggis
FAP FAP FAP
The crusaders could not have been true Christians or they would not, under the banner of the Cross, have killed innocent and defenseless Jews
Okay, then Mao and Stalin weren't true atheists. Osama Bin Laden wasn't a true Muslim. The Romans who fed Christians to the lions weren't true Romans. The Scotsman who put sugar in his porridge wasn't a true Scotsman. Whatever. The Bible is STILL full of violence commanded by God and even perpetrated by God and that's something even a No True Scotsman fallacy can't scrub out of your religion...oops, I mean your "relationship with Jesus".
"As for all religions having a history of violence, that is true. But biblical Christianity is not a religion, nor has it been involved in violence."
Why must you people make shit up? Are you really under the delusion that your religion isn't a religion, or do you just say stupid shit like this for some reason known only to yourselves?
"The crusaders could not have been true Christians or they would not, under the banner of the Cross, have killed innocent and defenseless Jews all along the way to Jerusalem and throughout the entire land of what was once Israel and had become known as 'Palestine.'"
The bastards probably put sugar on their porridge, too!
Koranic islam is not a religion, nor has it been involved in violence. The 9-11 hijackers could not have been true muslims or they would not, under the banner of the Crescent, have killed innocent and defenseless people of the book in those buildings.
Dave Hunt's argument is right & wrong but he's still stupid.
WRONG: Christianity is a religion, whenever Dave admits it or not. All those murderous monsters who Crusaded, Pogromed, Witch-Hunted, Gay-Bashed or whatever did it in the name of the Christian Faith & Christian God.
RIGHT: Since Jesus was a cool guy who emphasized such virtues as love, peace, charity, humility, kindness, forgiveness & spoke out against the rich & powerful, he would, indeed be appalled at the actions of the Church through the centuries. Therefore, in a way, those murderous scumbags were not true Christians.
IMHO, a true Christian would be a loving person, selfless humanitarian, peacemaker & a believer in Social Justice.
That said, that's probably NOT the point that Dave "Fundieface" Hunt is really making. I think he & his ilk are full of masculine bovine manure.
Except that biblibal christianity (if it ever did exist) would be a religion, just like actual christianity. Or are you giving up your tax exempt status?
They (the crusaders) were indeed christians, as were the conquistadores, the teutonic knights, the catholic and protestant armys that ravaged northern Europe in the 30 years war, and the heer divisions that stormed across Russia in 1941... with their machineguns blessed by the bishop of Munich
They all fought under the banner of the cross of Jesus.
"But biblical Christianity is not a religion"
(*Takes out of pocket mobile phone *)
...you want to make that call to the IRS, Colin Hunt (Cockney Rhyming Slang for 'Cunt'), or shall I...?
The rest of your so-called argument is the least of your problems, compared with the taxman going all Crusades on your arse. >:D
Here's a tip Hunt, crack open that bible your lot claims to revere.
Notice the books with titles like "Corinthians," "Thessalonians," and "Ephesians." Your savior (Paul) wrote those letters to groups (no pastors when they were written) to ensure consistent doctrine and practice. His opinions being (according to him) 100% god certified.
Groups with a consistent doctrine and practice that, allegedly, comes from god. Gosh, its almost like Pauline Christianity is a religion! And to think, if you never looked at your bible, you would never have known that!
Christianity isn't a religion? Fine, then. I'll notify the IRS that they can start collecting back taxes from every Christian institution in America. If Christianity isn't a religion, it isn't tax-exempt.
But biblical Christianity is not a religion...
Wrong.
Listen, words mean things. You don't get to redefine them at will to suit your purposes. Christianity is a religion. It is one of the major world religions.
...nor has it been involved in violence.
Wrong again. Consult any History of Wesern Civ textbook for details. You might be surprised at what you find.
The crusaders could not have been true Christians...
No True Scotsman fallacy.
You don't get to decide who is and isn't a "true" Christian. They did the awful things that they did under the banner of your faith. I understand that makes you uncomfortable, but you don't get to discount it because it's inconvenient for you.
What SpukiKitty said. In a way this person has a point: the kind of Christianity practiced by the Crusaders, or modern Christians, is/was not identical to what Jesus originally preached, and there's no clear surviving evidence of violence on the part of Jesus's original cult, but Jesus's cult was definitely a religion, and this person seems to be trying to twist words as an excuse for something.
And no TRUE Scotsman would eat his oatmeal with sugar!
And if "Biblical Christianity" isn't a religion, many "churches" should be speaking with the IRS regarding back taxes.
If Christianity's not a religion, I'll just call it a cult instead.
And the Crusades were only one of countless large-and-small scale acts of violence committed by Christians throughout history on nonbelievers in the hope of convincing them to convert. That's at least partially how Christianity was able to grow as rapidly as it did.
Actually, no true christian does work on the 4th crusade. Being excommunicated, like those crusaders were, means you couldn't be a christian until you repented their sins. Their sin? Using the crusades banner to kill christians in the croatian region, which venice told them to do. All the venetians got the boot too, cause of that. So yeah.
All the others were pretty much assholes under the christian banner. Though am curious how the teutonic knights got away with attacking poland without getting excommunicated.
"But biblical Christianity is not a religion..."
You should get one of the smart people to help you look up "religion" and "Christianity" in one of the many fine English language dictionaries.
"nor has it been involved in violence."
You haven't really, actually READ the Bible, have you? Even if we stay just in the NT, you're saying Jesus sending billions of souls to eternal torture isn't violence?
@SpukiKitty
If Jezus was such a cool dude, what did the fig tree ever do to him ?
"f anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters yes, even his own life he cannot be my disciple. And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple."
yea.... a real cool dude ... bit egocentric though ...
Biblical Christianity omits the religion, instead concentrating on, and continuing to add to, its history of violence.
So I guess that means there's never been an actual Christian, EVER.
Even Jesus supposedly mauled a couple of kids. With bears.
"The crusaders could not have been true Christians or they would not, under the banner of the Cross, have killed innocent and defenseless Jews".
Oats, what the English feed their horse, and Scots feed their peasents.
"But biblical Christianity is not a religion," actually, technically true, it's several religions, but that's not what you meant is it?
"nor has it been involved in violence."
"And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." - Yeshua ben Yosef
To paraphrase Mark Twain, there are lies, damned lies and apologetics.
@ #1499705
Even Jesus supposedly mauled a couple of kids. With bears.
That was Elisha, who supposedly had forty-two of them mauled for mocking his baldness. Nice bloke...
"But biblical Christianity is not a religion"
From Miriam-Webster:
"Christianity (noun)-the religion derived from Jesus Christ, based on the Bible as sacred scripture, and professed by Eastern, Roman Catholic, and Protestant bodies"
"The crusaders could not have been true Christians"
"Crusade (noun)-capitalized : any of the military expeditions undertaken by Christian powers in the 11th, 12th, and 13th centuries to win the Holy Land from the Muslims"
In just two definitions, your whole argument has been defeated. Christianity is defined as a religion. The Crusades were military campaigns undertaken by Christian powers. Thus, Christianity is a religion that has had a history of violence.
Have a nice day.
"The crusaders could not have been true Christians or they would not, under the banner of the Cross, have killed innocent and defenseless Jews..."
- You are forgetting your own doctrine Dave. Remember, its about faith, not works. As long as one has pledged allegiance to Jesus, your god doesn't care what they do.
I know there are a lot of Christians out there who embarrass you; the crusaders, scheming televangelists and probably Fred Phelps. But just like members of your family who embarrass you, pretending that you are not related doesn't make it so. Perhaps, rather than trying to distance yourself from them, you should take a lesson from them. Examine your own life and how you may be more similar to them than you currently think. Remove the plank from your eye before worry about the mote in your neighbor's.
(That last line is from the Gospel of Matthew, in case you were wondering)
So none of these were in any way violent? Some of those people involved might beg to differ...
1. The Flood (Genesis 6-8)
2. The cities of the plain, including Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis 18-19)
3. The Egyptian firstborn sons during the Passover (Exodus 11-12)
4. The Canaanites under Moses and Joshua (Numbers 21:2-3; Deuteronomy 20:17; Joshua 6:17, 21)
5. The Amalekites annihilated by Saul (1 Samuel 15)
@#1500540
Christian (n): One who believes in the divinty of Christ.
Note that no-where in that deffinition is the statement "and doesn't murder other Chirstians".
And it would by the association fallacy if we were saying all christians are pyschopathic arseholes because the Crusaders/Inquisition/Abraham's God are pyschopaths. Which to be fair, does happen.
@ #1500540
that's not what the fallacy means it just means that an individual attempts to avoid being associated with an unpleasant act by asserting that no true member of the group they belong to would do such a thing
so by saying the crusaders are not "true" Christians thats the exact spirt of the fallacy
@#1500540
I pretty much agree with you to a point but the last sentence really crosses the line, bub! Atheism is not evil!
Perhaps we should quit the Scotsman thing think in terms of "Good Christian" & "Bad Christian".
Those brutish Crusader/Inquisition/Hate Crime jerks were indeed technically Christians, just very bad ones.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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