I once queried a young granddaughter of mine about what she brought to school for lunch. She listed an assortment of sandwiches but an iconic one was missing. “What about peanut butter?” I asked. Her eyes widened and she said, “Oh, no. We don’t bring peanut butter into the school. Some kids are ‘lergic to it!”
The following week I was interviewed on a Jewish television program about the “Women of the Wall.” I had not planned to recount my conversation with my grandchild but it unexpectedly sprung to mind and I did. It surely inconveniences children with a fondness for peanut butter, I mused to the interviewer, to be unable to enjoy it for lunch. But concern for the sensitivities of others trumps our personal preferences, as it should. I suggested that sensitivities come in different colors. A halacha-abiding man may not be literally ‘lergic to women’s chanting. But in a way he is.
[...]
For more than forty years, the Kosel has been a place – perhaps the only one in the world – where Jews of all affiliations and persuasions have regularly prayed side by side. That has been possible because of the good will of non-Orthodox Jews – Israelis and Westerners alike – who, although they may opt for very different services in their own homes, synagogues or temples, have considered the feelings of those who embrace the entirety of the Jewish religious tradition.
54 comments
I'm not sure I understand what point is being made here...
"A halacha-abiding man may not be literally lergic to women’s chanting. But in a way he is" sounds like "we should exclude women from services out of sensitivity to those men who don't believe in allowing women that freedom," and if that's what is intended, then that's indeed stupid and worthy of being on here. But I'm not sure if my interpretation is correct. How do you fellow FSTDTers read this?
It's an odd one - i think Wehpudicabok is correct in their reading. He makes all the right noises about empathy and indeed seeks to calm those who might agree with him from attacking the 'other side' but in the end it's ok to exclude the women because it would be tolerant of them to accept the exclusion.
The peanut butter thing would be better expressed by saying some kids forgo peanut butter because the affect on other kids could be much worse than not having peanut butter. The men have been parying here for all these years and would be more upset and nore affected by women praying there as then they would have to stop. The Wall also works by allowing some strains in Jusdaism to be bridged so in destroying that there would be more cost overall.
I think it's a flawed argument since it's not clear that what is being compared is being given teh same consideration - but at least it's a reasonably phrased argument and doesn't seek to vilify others.
So not fundie imo
Doesn't sound very fundie to me. Maybe a little conservative. When he got to the peanut butter part, and "concern for the sensitivities of others trumps our personal preferences", I thought it was going to lead into something homophobic, but it seems it is something more like what Wehpudicabok said above. Oh well, perhaps someone of Jewish descent could explain the offensive bits to the rest of us.
"A halacha-abiding man may not be literally lergic to women’s chanting.."
And that's where the analogy breaks down. We didn't even have to do anything. You've already broken your own argument.
This guy doesn't strike me as overly fundie. Just a bit daft.
@ Phillip-George(c)2013 Just Passing
Quoting the Rabbi is permitted in United States copyright law as discussed here: http://fstdt.com/FAQ.aspx#Legal
On the subject of copyright law, your apparent claim to have copyrighted the name 'Phillip-George' is far more dubious.
As for this strange peanut butter analogy, it seems almost farcical to imagine grown men being allergic to women's chanting. I suppose that's a handy way to clear a room if you've got a stereo system.
metaphors are for what Arctic?
to expand the scope of thought? I'd say he means "
creates undesired affect"
allergies can be measured in histamine, globulin levels, White Cell counts or, less prosaically, by symptoms.
Metaphor is not a 'darnedest thing'.
Sex-segregation for prayer is a foolish thing, but so is prayer itself. The quote is an expression of appreciation to others for tolerance of difference. Not a bad thing in itself.
@John_in_Oz
It's not sex-segregated prayer, it's keeping the women out altogether, and some of them are objecting. He's saying they should butt out, because his right not to have look at them is more important than their right to be there.
There is a point. As some are allergic to peanut and real nut products, they should not be brought by children into school. They may share them around and that could have very serious consequences.
This has nothing whatsoever to do with the Western wall or the odd moments when different sects show mutual tolerance.
(emph-ass-is added):
"But concern for the sensitivities of others trumps our personal preferences, as it should. I suggested that sensitivities come in different colors . A halacha-abiding man may not be literally lergic to women’s chanting. But in a way he is."
image
Ever hear of the phrase 'Slippery Slope', Rabbi? PROTIP: Liberal Judaism exists. Indeed, some synagogues are so liberal, they have female rabbis.
Are they any the less Jews?
So some people have a nut allergy. Would you consider someone (like me) being allergic to religion-based sexism & misogyny - and therefore you being separated from the rest of the non -sexist population here on Planet Reality - a bad analogy...?!
As soon as chanting women cause you to get hives, swell up and stop BREATHING, we can talk. Until then, STFU, asshole.
A halacha-abiding man is not allergic to women's chanting and the rabbi defeats his own argument. It's just that there's a Talmudic prohibition on kol isha, hearing women sing and pray. Others say this only applies to reciting the Shema. This isn't that fundie; indeed it would be nice if Orthodox Jews were so considerate of the non-Orthodox at other times. But maybe it's only when the Orthodox get what they want.
@1531803
Women pray every day at the Kosel where there is a mechitzah. This has absolutely nothing to keeping women out altogether. The controversy is about women praying aloud, reading the Torah aloud and wearing tallis and kippah, all of which are forbidden in Orthodox Judaism but permitted (to various extents) in non-Orthodox Judaism.
@Anon-e-moose
There are even (a very few) Orthodox female rabbis. It would be interesting to know how that works.
At such time as Rabbi Shafran can demonstrate being exposed to women chanting has teh ptoential to cause halachic-abiding men actual physical harm he'll have an approriate analogy.
Until that time he's just whining about how awful it is their poor little feelings might be hurt.
It saddens me deeply to have to agree with the Rabbi. His analogy is flawed in that peanut butter is banned because it is potentially deadly, a fact of which he seems unaware.
That said, those indoctrinated into cultish belief systems will often have a visceral reaction when their taboos are violated - this is a measure of just how strongly they believe what they have been told to believe.
The Kosel is, among other things, a sterling example of reality being defined by the least sane person in the room. That said, better to include than to exclude, even at the fool's own choice. There is always a chance that the cross-contamination could bring one back to the road to sanity.
"But concern for the sensitivities of others trumps our personal preferences, as it should."
This is very true and is a teaching taught in Reform Jewish communities and should be practiced by all people everywhere...
"A halacha-abiding man may not be literally lergic to women’s chanting. But in a way he is."
This is false and shows that you're a misogynistic asshole who is not worthy of the title 'Rabbi'. If you wouldn't mind Mr. Shafran, kindly DIAF.
Everyone should be welcome at the Wall, and that stupid green tarp fence that separates the men's side from the ((Noticably smaller and less maintained)) women's side is an excellent example of the kind of inequality that needs to be purged from Judaism.
I suppose fstdt admin has to keep the appearance of balance, otherwise the muslim and Christian fundies might start whining about bias. So some Rabbi politely complains about some inconsiderately loud hicks and he gets quoted here as a fundie? I'm not saying there aren't any fundie Jews out there but this guy ain't it.
@Hasan Prishtina
Good explanation as always.
@the non-Jewish
Halocha is basically the Jewish creed. A combination of not just religious laws but also cultural beliefs and customs of all sorts.
One: I have never heard of a school banning peanut products from its premesis entirely, that goes well past overcaution. The most severe precautions I've heard of are to ban them from the kitchen area. Two: that is the dumbest analogy for the 'justification' of excluding women from an activity I have ever heard and we've got quotes from Vox Day lying around.
To all the people saying this isn't fundie: am I missing something? It seems to me this guy is saying that women shouldn't be allowed to chant at the western wall, a public place , because some men don't like hearing women's voices. If so this is blatant disgusting sexism and fundie as all hell. So why all the "not fundie" comments?
Does this ignorant ass even know what a severe peanut allergy can do?
Unless these men, upon hearing women chanting, would literally die from asphyxiation because their breathing passages could swell up and get sealed off, this Rabbi should fuck off.
A deadly peanut allergy isn't a damn choice, and its not a mere annoyance to someone's sensibilities. Some children have it so bad that they can actually die from breathing in the powdered peanut dust that comes from broken and crushed peanuts. To pretend there's even a remotely similar parallel to be drawn to a person who's delicate preferences would be hurt if he heard women chanting is either belittling the allergy-stricken children or massively overplaying the effect of having one's religious sensibilities offended.
@Jacobin Socialist
The Kosel, while a public place, functions as a synagogue where people pray and hold services. It is also the most holy place in Judaism. The Kosel is run, as Rabbi Shifran says, in a way that tries to accommodate the liberal with the charedi. St Peter's in Rome and the Qaba in Mecca are also public places, yet it is not seen as "fundie as all hell" that women do not conduct services in either place. That is, unfortunately, how those religions are and, until they change, things just roll that way. The same goes for the Kosel. Also, there is nothing particularly fundie about it in the context of debates within Judaism. You may not like it, just as you may not like any traditional religious expression, but that is not the same as fundamentalism.
To describe what, in Judaism, is a fairly normal statement of orthodox practise - and this is about practise more than belief - as "fundie as all hell" because it is not ideal, I fear, may also provide ammunition to those who propagate the view that we will not tolerate their disagreement with us, such as on marriage equality, and that we will force them to do things they do not wish to do. In short, to confuse conservatism with fundamentalism serves only to strengthen the fundamentalist.
A halacha-abiding man may not be literally lergic to women’s chanting. But in a way he is.
No, he isn't. There's a difference between turning children loose with foods that could literally kill one of their classmates and not wanting a woman praying anywhere near you. Can you imagine a church that allowed whites to say they didn't want black people praying with them? Nothing in scripture forbids women to stand at the same wall as men while praying. That's just another of those Talmudic hair-shirt rules like eating chicken and cheesecake with different forks that the OCD lunatic fringe invented.
I don't think the commenters here understand why what he is saying is so offensive. The Women of the Wall is an organization fighting for the right to pray as they want at the Western Wall, which is a holy site sacred to all Jews. The Haredim there like Mr. Shafran have harassed them and had them imprisoned by the police, simply for praying with a tallis and tefillin. (You know there's something fucked up when the Pope is welcomed to the Wall with open arms, but a sincerely devout Jewish woman or female rabbi is thrown in jail for praying there.) Thankfully, a Jerusalem court recently ruled that women praying near men does not constitute a "disturbance of the peace," so now all Jews can pray how they like regardless of their gender. The Wall is not and should not become an ultra-Orthodox synagogue.
For more than forty years, the Kosel has been a place perhaps the only one in the world where Jews of all affiliations and persuasions have regularly prayed side by side.
Yeah, unless those Jews are female and want to use a tallis. Then they get spat on and hauled off by police.
@Hasan Prishtina - There's compromises with the separation of men and women, however. I went to a synagogue once that had three rows of chairs. The right side was for women only, the left side was for men only, and the middle was for families and those who felt comfortable sitting with the opposite sex.
So according to this guy, Peanut Butter = ...
... I have no clue, actually. This quote makes no sense.
@Hasan Prishtina
I don't understand what you're saying. You say that stopping women praying at the wall is "appalling" and yet you think it unfair to call this quote, apparently seeking to do exactly that, fundamentalist. Please clarify; I don't think we're on the same page.
"St Peter's in Rome and the Qaba in Mecca are also public places, yet it is not seen as "fundie as all hell" that women do not conduct services in either place."
It is indeed seen as fundie by many, including me. An important difference worth noting, however, is that both Vatican City and Saudi Arabia are explicit, unashamed theocracies (theocracies, moreover, run by some of the most conservative factions within their respective religions) whilst Israel is constantly claiming, and is claimed by its defenders, to be a secular state.
Let me tell you something, Palestines, Christian and Muslims alike, are alergic to you. That's why they want you out of their country?. Sounds fair?. Go figure.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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