Quote# 98464



Vine & Fig Tree's
Anti-Separation
of Church and State Page

Freedom for Non-Christian Religions
in a Christian Nation

We have seen that

Religion is the foundation of government. The Founding Fathers believed there can be no secular government. Deism, infidelity, and atheism are threats to good government.
There is a true religion, others are "false religions."
America is a Christian Nation.

But some have attacked the "Christian America" thesis by arguing that the Founding Fathers clearly spoke of the need to give "religious freedom" to all, regardless of their beliefs. There is truth to this statement, even thought the majority of times the phrase "religious freedom" was used it referred to freedom for all denominations of Christians. But no one who signed the Constitution believed that pure religious freedom was a possibility. We will see more of this in another paper. On this page we wish to re-assure those of non-Christian religions that living in a Christian Theocracy is better than living in an Islamic theocracy, a Jewish theocracy, or a Secular Humanist theocracy. Living in a Christian nation means enjoying greater freedom and economic prosperity than any other nation on earth. But if your religion requires you to engage in the sacrifice of your virgin daughter to the sun-god, or if your religion requires you to marry as many wives as you can before you die, you will not be allowed to practice these aspects of your religion

Even though they believed in a nation "under God," that is, the Christian God, the Founding Fathers were not vicious Christian bigots who persecuted non-Christian religionists. They gave all religions rights within Christian social norms. But it was clear that one religion was preferred.

N/A, Vine & Fig Tree 29 Comments [12/27/2013 4:30:10 AM]
Fundie Index: 26

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anothga

There is a true religion, others are "false religions."
By "a true religion", I assume you mean pastafarianism.

12/27/2013 4:38:38 AM

Leander

"Secular Humanist theocracy", thats like talking about dry water or cold fire...

12/27/2013 4:51:21 AM

Canadiest

"But some have attacked the "Christian America" thesis by arguing that the Founding Fathers clearly spoke of the need to give "religious freedom" to all, regardless of their beliefs. There is truth to this statement." That's where you should have stopped, at the reality of the case but no, off you go into your Christian Theocracy fantasy.

There's been Christian Theocracies, the founding fathers were versed in those dark histories and sought to avoid such in the new land. Then came years of shutting down various attempts of the church enslaving again.

It's never stopped, here's the Vine & Fig Tree trying to raise the church to power yet again.

12/27/2013 5:23:17 AM

anevilmeme

That Constitution you pretend you've read and understood was written by a deist.

12/27/2013 5:47:20 AM

Arctic Knight

"a Secular Humanist theocracy"

What the hell is that? With a single statement, the author of this piece demonstrates his total and complete stupidity, destroying any semblance of logic and reason s/he thought s/he had. Absolutely no credibility left here.

12/27/2013 5:48:23 AM

Mister Spak

You've been drinking too much of that vine stuff.

12/27/2013 6:18:06 AM

Doubting Thomas

Deism, infidelity, and atheism are threats to good government.

Funny that the founding fathers thought this, since so many of them were deists.

As for the rest of your Christian nationalist bullshit, you can shove it up your ass and move to Iran if you love theocracy so much. I do laugh, though, at your desire for a Christian theocracy in the U.S. knowing that it'll never happen since the country is becoming less and less religious.

12/27/2013 6:18:37 AM

Qazamir McSmarty Britches

we wish to re-assure those of non-Christian religions that living in a Christian Theocracy is better...

Speaking as a member of a non-Christian religion and dealing with my share of Christian fundies... let's just say I have my doubts.

the Founding Fathers were not vicious Christian bigots

I have a feeling you would be though.

12/27/2013 6:50:52 AM

Doom Nugget

Ladies and Gentlemen, now accepting his diploma from the David Barton Historical Society....

Congress forbidden from establishing a religion is proof that a religion was established in this country. White is black, black is white, and we have always been at war with Eurasia. And someone might want to explain to him, though it won't do any good, what the country's motto was before the "red scare" of the 1950s changed it.

12/27/2013 6:58:58 AM

Rob aka Mediancat

"A secular humanist theocracy."

Check your dictionary for the definition of theocracy and get back to us, bucko.

12/27/2013 7:02:09 AM

dionysus

There is truth to this statement, even thought the majority of times the phrase "religious freedom" was used it referred to freedom for all denominations of Christians. But no one who signed the Constitution believed that pure religious freedom was a possibility.

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.

-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography

So not only did he think that it was possible to have religious freedom for everyone but he seems to have thought that was the whole point behind religious freedom. It seems he wouldn't agree with your assessment of religious freedom being only meant for Christians. But what would he know? He's only Thomas Jefferson.

12/27/2013 7:02:25 AM

kuribo

You deserve a medal, it must have taken a lot of effort to write an essay where not a single sentence is true

12/27/2013 7:15:45 AM

Frank

"On this page we wish to re-assure those of non-Christian religions that living in a Christian Theocracy is better than living in an Islamic theocracy, a Jewish theocracy, or a Secular Humanist theocracy."

Would that be a catholic or protestant Christian theocracy. I won't even bother to list the thousands of other Christian denominations.

"f your religion requires you to marry as many wives as you can before you die,"

Would this include Mormons?

I would also point out that early European settlers in America left countries that already had christian state religions but they were not the version of Christianity that they adhered to and were therefore persecuted in their countries of origin. No theocracy will countenance the practice of any other religion within its borders as it would be a threat to the primacy of whatever religion the theocracy the state follows.

12/27/2013 7:53:43 AM

HASHER

Washington was a Deist, Jefferson was an adulterer, the phrase 'Secular Humanist Theocracy' is an oxymoron, 'Under God' was added to the pledge in the 1950s. Do you people ever pay attention?

12/27/2013 11:17:45 AM



The first ammendment tears your argument. That´s why you say that on the web and don´t have the balls to be public.

12/27/2013 11:37:13 AM

Goomy pls

I'd prefer that the people in power be Jews because Jews have been shown to be smarter. Like me ^_^

Also, Whine and Bawl Tree, you never said WHICH religion is true or gave any evidence. Try harder next time. It could be Goomyism for all you know!

Also, what if your religion requires you to not kill Christians?

12/27/2013 1:11:19 PM

shy

"We have seen that"

No, we haven't. The founding fathers consisted of secularists, deists, and non-dominionist Christians.

12/27/2013 2:00:33 PM

Old Viking

The dissociation of religion and government is what made us unique, and still does.

12/27/2013 2:32:16 PM

pyro

There is a true religion, others are false religions. ALL HAIL THE GREAT GOD CTHULU. WARGNACKT RA'MARSCHLLNR!

12/27/2013 3:15:38 PM

breakerslion

"Secular humanist theocracy?"

"True religion?"

I think your humor is ahead of its time. I'm sure that future generations will appreciate it... once the rotting corpse of religious delusion and control ceases to be even an embarrassment. People might understand you more if you included a laugh track.

12/27/2013 4:10:04 PM

Papabear

"The Founding Fathers believed there can be no secular government."

Yeah, I'm absolutely sure Thomas Paine believed that exactly.

12/27/2013 4:12:32 PM

John

Even though they believed in a nation "under God,"...

The phrase "under God" was added to the Pledge of Allegiance in the 1950's. God is never mentioned in the Constitution. God wasn't explicitly mentioned in the Declaration of Independence, either - it just mentioned a "creator". And the DoI isn't a law - it was just a letter to King George.

12/27/2013 4:55:21 PM

mattidef, old tyme anarchist

so, Christian theocracy would be most free and economically prosperous? Hrm... So you admit love and anarcho-communism is the proper way to prosperity, or am I correct in assuming I am more versed in the teachings of Jesus than you?

@breakerlion

As one atheist to another, bah.

12/27/2013 7:04:26 PM

Skyknight

Working through the Vine & Fig Tree site is a thorn and a half; it's getting to the point that I'm thinking there might be multiple authors who aren't using a common glossary. For all that he speaks of above, the site maintainer isn't convinced that the Revolution was a good idea--or more accurately, godly. In a quote I just submitted, he castigated the idea that the nation WASN'T 400+ years old. In other words, he's counting from the settlement of Plimoth and Massachusetts Bay, and regards the PROPER "government" for the world as Anarcho-Calvinist patriarchy.

He still believes in absolute predestination, that ungodly states like Assyria (and, apparently, post-Declaration America) were convened by God's "command"--quotation marks in original, somewhere--to punish covenant-breakers and other anti-God retinues, and yet will still be properly punished for violating the written command. All to magnify God's glory, of course. (I wonder if he's friends with Vincent Cheung...?)

EDIT: Looks like he holds Cornelius van Til in high regard, too. That's van Til as in the one who established Christian presuppositionalism.

12/28/2013 9:49:42 AM

Sangfroid

And the Founders were so smart they cloaked their Christian theocracy in language that was atheistic, deistic or just plain humanistic, and no one but this "smart guy" penetrated their trick. It's all sort of like the De Vinci Code, except stupid.

12/28/2013 1:31:05 PM

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