Churchwork #fundie #senpai_noticed

Churchwork #fundie #senpai_noticed_us biblocality.com

The cult of the FSTDT is a cult of agnostics/atheists who call Jesus a liar, yet they have no reason for doing so. What FSTDT really stands for is For Satan The Demonic Teacher.

In spite of the fact that God of the Bible is proven in the 4 Step Perfect Proof, they still remain shutting their minds down.

When I am against something, I at least have some evidence, yet they need none because they operate as a cult.

664 comments

old comment by Florens

This site is just upsetting. Look at this thread.

http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2213

The topic starter is polite and cautious, much more than I would have been (if I cared enough to register on that site I would've just went ahead and called him all-out batshit insane). Yet this Churchwork guy chooses to spew nastiness and tell him what an awful person he is and how he's going to burn in hell. I also particularly liked this part:

"Seventh, Jesus is more well documented than anyone in antiquity, so lack of historical record is not a viable excuse. We have 45 early known sources in addition to the Bible documenting 129 facts of his life from Christians and non-Christians."

I'd like to know who "We" refers to (him and the voices in his head maybe?) and what exactly these 45 sources are.

old comment by Caustic Gnostic

I, like Thomas Paine, do not regard Jesus as a liar; rather, he's pretty much a mensch in anyone's book. Ironically enough, the travesty that identifies itself as "his" book, has twisted and perverted his good image.

Ditch the blood-god of Abraham, and his poisonous scripture, and we may be dealing with a viable proposition here.

I won't be arguing with Mr Jefferson either.

Deist, atheist, whatever -- those gentlemen had broad enough cultural awareness to recognize a good person by his message. Like Socrates, of course; the Buddha; Mencius and Plotinus; and whoever else, by being exemplary humanist teachers, might elevate themselves into the cultural stream of consciousness.

Jesus emerged from the cultural backwoods of his time, ostensibly to save the people from Yaldabaoth, and those people that were supposedly entrusted to carry his message to the world, let him down.

Except his apostle to India and a couple others.

old comment by Dread Pirate Crotchbeard

Let's see here...from here:

Cultnoun
1. a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.
3. the object of such devotion.
4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.
5. Sociology. a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.
6. a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.
7. the members of such a religion or sect.
8. any system for treating human sickness that originated by a person usually claiming to have sole insight into the nature of disease, and that employs methods regarded as unorthodox or unscientific.
adjective
9. of or pertaining to a cult.
10. of, for, or attracting a small group of devotees: a cult movie.
[Origin: 161020; < L cultus habitation, tilling, refinement, worship, equiv. to cul-, var. s. of colere

Making freethinkers believe, think, feel or do the same thing is like herding cats while blindfolded, so I don't think any of these can be applied to FSTDT.com. Unless one wants to define the membership of any discussion forum or message board as a cult. In which case, you're no longer using the language the rest of us have agreed on.

@Illuminatalie: if only, man...if only...

old comment by Necronomikron

ARGUMENT FROM EXHAUSTION (abridged)
(1) Do you agree with the utterly trivial proposition X?
(2) Atheist: of course.
(3) How about the slightly modified proposition X'?
(4) Atheist: Um, no, not really.
(5) Good. Since we agree, how about Y? Is that true?
(6) Atheist: No! And I didn't agree with X'!
(7) With the truths of these clearly established, surely you agree that Z is true as well?
(8) Atheist: No. So far I have only agreed with X! Where is this going, anyway?
(9) I'm glad we all agree.....
....
(37) So now we have used propositions X, X', Y, Y', Z, Z', P, P', Q and Q' to arrive at the obviously valid point R. Agreed?
(38) Atheist: Like I said, so far I've only agreed with X. Where is this going?
....
(81) So we now conclude from this that propositions L'', L''' and J'' are true. Agreed?
(82) I HAVEN'T AGREED WITH ANYTHING YOU'VE SAID SINCE X! WHERE IS THIS GOING?
....
(177) ...and it follows that proposition HRV, SHQ'' and BTU' are all obviously valid. Agreed?
(178) [Atheist either faints from overwork or leaves in disgust.]
(179) Therefore, God exists.

old comment by 1Burning Stake

Guys, if you want to see the proof, it's on his site. You don't want him here, spamming the place up with it. It's a typical circular argument with only 2 steps, but he rewords a step so he can number it twice, and puts in a non-step that he calls a step.

I agree with Hawker Hurricane. At the board he mentioned, the SAB, he kept spamming us with it repeatedly. When he was told to leave (I don't believe he was ever actually banned, since that was what he wanted) he kept coming back with sockpuppets. I believe one of them was "Churchwork" at that site as well.

The "evidence" you provided is circular logic, Troy. While it certainly could still be true, there is no true evidence that it actually is.

old comment by Omegus

From the mouth of Churchwork I give thee this:

Mark these words carefully and mark them well. False tongues will play an integral role regarding religious Rome (Rev. 17) to make the nations drunk (Rev. 14.8).

This grand deception is so easy to see yet 1 in 3 in Christendom are Pentecostal accepting that tongues means gibberish babble.

What I have noticed is they get aggressive, more confident in their gibberish babble pursuits. They are going to take what first seemed like harmless antics a hundred years ago and morph it into pushing the nuclear button by those who are in power to do so.

You may consider this a prophecy.

The voices of gibberish will cause strange thinking.(All too true) All the while the spirit was not divided from the soul.

[img]http://www.fstdt.com/funnyimages/uploads/572.jpg[/img]

old comment by A Friend

There is a difference between claims of etheral entities and a person who walks on earth and ministers for 3 years (something tangible), who said He is God, showed no apparent sin, professed His death on the cross, died, and was multiply attested visibly, physically, vocally in His resurrection. The latter was well documented as in the case of the historical Jesus, but the former is merely conjecture.

Since those who saw Jesus resurrected went to their deaths as martyrs for this testimony, and they would not proclaim His deity of His resurrection if He did not say He was the uncreated Creator, because people don't go to their martyrdom based on something they don't believe. If Jesus never said it, lived it, nor was raised for them to be eyewitnesses of, then they would not preach a lie unto death, because people don't do that (though people can believe a lie, they can't multiply testify to seeing the same thing because there is no such thing as group hallucinations). They truly believe in their idea, but hallucinations don't count because modern psychology says group hallucinations are impossible. They saw the same thing in their twelve different group settings of His resurrection.

If you can't explain it away, then realize you are just shutting your mind down as the false fruit of your hostility to your Creator, so shall you be resurrected for Hell. You don't want salvation and His forgiveness which is insanity. It is insane to want to be consciously aware forever in hell. You know this already, because you provide no challenge to the 4SPFG & MFA. Yes, Paul said he saw Jesus resurrected and met with the apostles who said the same in 1 Cor. 15, Gal. 1 & 2; and 95% of scholars agree that Paul was being geniune. So you are against the most learned people on the subject, for the reasons they give for their multiple corroboration.

http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2256

old comment by A Friend

I know one thing more than anything else and as sure of this fact as I know 1+1=2. If you do not profess Jesus as the risen Lord and uncreated Creator in your heart of hearts before men and women, I am 100% convinced you will go to hell, which is an eternal separation from God and His chosen ones. You'll consciously living out your existence in that domain forever and forever. Wow!

Galileo and Newton and Einstein and Pascal said the same.

Isn't it interesting the most noteworthy scientists in history were almost always Christians. They could not deny the evidence of nature (Step 2 of the 4SPFG), nor the exponential progression of conscience (Step 1), nor the MFA of the only possibility which is Jesus is God and salvation is through Him and Him alone!

Praise the Lord! My prayers go out to you.

I won't be catering to your fleshly responses, so please understand if I don't respond for some time to come, but you are welcome to join Biblocality Forums and discuss what you wish if it doesn't violate the Board Etiquette.

old comment by Illuminatalie

"I am 100% convinced you will go to hell, which is an eternal separation from God and His chosen ones. You'll consciously living out your existence in that domain forever and forever."
Obvious lie. You are not 100% convinced of anything, kid. Talk tough all you want, your neurotic rambling tells us all we need to know. You're terrified of reality, and hiding under your bed.

"Wow!"
If you smoke more, you'll start to see demons, and you'll be so busy with them, you won't have time to bother anyone else.

"Galileo and Newton and Einstein and Pascal said the same."
That's the ten billionth lie for Jesus! We will mail you the winning cheque as soon as you answer this skill testing question : who went to the tomb on Easter Sunday, and what did they see?

old comment by A Friend

Who said God needs protection from mere mortals?

Because you are valuable to God, intrinsic value, made in His image, your eternal separation in hell is the dimension you must go to, because you can't be with God's own people and the Lamb of God in the new city.

Hell solves the problem of those who don't want His love, grace and mercy to save you from your sins and giving eternal life, logically speaking, but also righteously (His way of doing things), and according to His holy nature.

Your excuse is you will be tortured for eternity. Understand the torture you will go through is not like torture that occurs in your mere human understanding that exhibits on earth today, for all torture eventually ceases, but the torture you will endure for eternity is different. It is quite arrogant to presume such torture is the same or that the torture that you will endure can be truly appreciated beyond your understanding that it entails an eternal separation from God.

Remember, what God said, nobody knows fully all the things that are planned for us. By saying you don't approve of your being torturted for eternity is merely your arrogance as if you know what that torture really entails. Since God has never done wrong, your turture will be truly just and appropriate for your condition of rejecting His Son for all eternity. How sad for you. You get what you deserve, be sure of that!

People have to exist in jail for the rest of their lives; why should it be any different for bad people such as yourself who belong in hell for forever? It is torture to be in jail for life, so is it torture to be where you are going to be for eternity.

Peace.

old comment by A Friend

Everytime you blame you show your ignorance and realize your ignorance is a reflection of your hostility to your Creator, because indeed, you belong in hell...because it is your choice. It's very simple. Nothing is new under the sun.

Egyptian babies that died was because the infected crops were given to the young, and not just the young, but the first born that consequently died.

God forsees all peoples that will be saved or not saved, including Egyptian babies. People get caught in the crossfire. Don't blame God for the Egyptian babies dying, for it was the Egyptian parents that caused their deaths.

These diseased crops did not occur in the area where Israel was living.

old comment by Christopher

Troy the jerkoff wrote

"The burden of the proof is on the person who claims something.

The burden of the proof was met in the 4 steps (the evidence).

If it was not the case, you could show otherwise."

No. Got it backwards again. We've checked out your argument & rejected it as worthless. The fact that you won't accept its worthlessness is irrelevant. No one can prove anything to a fanatic.

Also you lied.

You said that it was true because we couldn't prove it was wrong. Quote:
1) X is claimed as a proof
2) No fault with X was found specifically.
3) X remains valid until proven otherwise."

LIAR. God condemns you to hell for that Troy. And don't you dare to say "He wouldn't do that I'm born again." Don't you know he can produce born agains from the very stones?

old comment by A Friend

Since the Bible addresses what occured back to the big bang and before that, then the Bible is longer than evolution. Evolution only addresses what happened since the first since celled organism and does not address even how the first single celled organism came into being.

Obviously, you misquited me about women's clothing somehow which is bearing false witness. Again, you can't prove it. You can be coy, but that is the unethical nature of someone who can't back their claim.

Indeed, you are admitting you can't find fault with the proof for God. That is similar to Jesus' statement that said if you are not for Him, you are against Him. If you can't find fault with Him and His proof of Himself, then accept Him, but if you can't, without reason, know it is because you are a bad person who belongs in hell by choice.

old comment by A Friend

You can accept anything you like as worthless, but if you have no reason for doing so, it is only hostility unsubstantiated.

God does not condemn someone to hell for accepting the proof of His Son. How silly to think so.

God never saves someone against their free-choice to reject Him. You are a sovereign being without excuse. That is how God made you and has given you the choice.

God will send noone to hell who is born-again, for the Bible teaches once-saved-always-saved. Read your Bible. Wake up! You're in a dark sleep. As I have said many times, shutting your mind down is the key culprit of why you are going to hell; your going to hell is because you willingly shut your mind down to reality and refuse what has been so graciously offerred to you as a way out of your predicament. But why do you do this? It is because you want to remain in those sins and ugliness of character because it gets you off though it is not an eternally satisfying condition. It's like a drug addict who gets his temporary fix.

Misreading the Bible doesn't count (Step 3 of the 4 Step Proof for God).

old comment by Christopher

Ah Troy the Jerkoff

That's twice you've lied.

Quote"God does not condemn someone to hell for accepting the proof of His Son. How silly to think so." But I didn't say that He condemned you for being a born again but for lying.

Quote by me " LIAR. God condemns you to hell for that Troy." God is condemning you for LYING Troy.

And you seem to believe that you can get away with it because you were born again. Rubbish!!!

Now since we've seen that you're a liar, and liars can't be trusted because they lie, then how can we trust anything you say?

As far as your perfect proofs go if your serious about them why don't you send them to this site:
http://www.iep.utm.edu/

It's a peer reviewed philosophy site. But you'll never do it. You know your so called "perfect proof" are a pack of twaddle & lies from start to finish don't you LIAR?

old comment by A Friend

Don't accuse someone of lying, for that is bearing false witness when they didn't lie. Christians don't get away with lying, for there are consequences for Christians, though not loss of eternal life. Why does that offend you?

The offer to disprove the proof for God is where it belongs on a site with authority run by an apostle for the church. There is no better place. Anyone from anywhere can come to discuss it. In God's design, the apostle is the leading authority on earth for the church, the church is above all other things on earth. The Church is the pearl of great price, not some philosophy site. Philosphy is of the mind, but an unregenerate mind is an illogical mind. Unless your spirit is quicked by the Holy Spirit you will always have serious lack mentally in your soul.

old comment by Egg Squizzlezep

My Four Step Perfect Proof that FSTDTers Can't Give It Up:

1. There is only one Troy. Like an unholy hybrid of Kibo and Gollum, he returns every time he is invoked.
2. FSTDTers like fundy-bashing so much they will actually invoke him on slow quote days.
3. Troy's intractable stupidity ensures that there will be an endless supply of people to attack him, even though it's not good for the site to have people baiting a delusional idiot into inflating post counts on inconsequential threads.
4. Therefore, anyone who responds to Troy is feeding his ego and is being a pinhead.

Note that this is every bit as logical as Troy's proof, and yet it's still rather more accurate. It is furthermore my opinion that delenda est Ilium.

old comment by Lorelei

A Friend, watch about calling us evil. Jesus himself said 'Let those who have not sinned cast the first stone.' By telling us that we have sinned, you are metaphorically casting stones at us, judging us even though you are not one to do so as you are just as bad as us, and are going directly against the Savior's teachings. How is it you are able to look him straight in the eye and refuse to go by the teachings he dedicated his whole existence to spreading and dying for your sins because of the kindness he taught? When you die, are you sure you are going to heaven? Maybe Jesus might just cast stones at you- for he is the one that has never sinned, and you are far from it. How quickly would you die for someone, anyone, even an atheist that you claim to dislike so much?

Maybe you should read the bible instead of sitting on the computer all day and writing gibberish about perfect proof. Spread the word by actions and attitude, not some self righteous crap that everyone knows is just ignorance and wrongful pathetic arrogance hiding behind church doors and a fake pious smile.

old comment by Rime

In other quotes, there have been discussions about "the four step perfect proof." If you try to engage him seriously, he starts seriously enough, but after three of four posts tries to denigrate the discussion by using increasing amounts of inflammatory evangelistic terminology that has no doubt made its way under his skin as he trolls other message boards to start heated arguments. If you take a look around the Internet for the places he has participated in discussion, it always seems that the threads he contributes in wind up being threads full of insults and inflammatory remarks.

I highly doubt he coined the terms "unregenerate" "Satan is your father" "shutting your mind down" and "making the truth a casualty" on his own. A number of those terms can be found on sites like bibleforums and FACTnet or any place that he hasn't had his posts removed from. And of course, from sites full of "unsaved" like JREF, whywontgodhealamputees and Ex-Christian.net.

I see that he hasn't changed, so I'm planning to refrain from discussing with him at length as it's obvious that he isn't interested in serious discussion.

Of course, folks, it's your dime, but the only thing I gained out of arguing with Mr. Brooks is a further edifying of my unbelief.

old comment by A Friend

The Bible is quite clear in John 3.18 that you are going to hell if you don't accept what Jesus did for you on the cross.

You can disagree, but you can't disprove the proof for God of the Bible in the 4 Step Proof for God and the Minimal Facts Approach. And remember, the proof for God proves there is no eternity of the past of cause and effects. It also proves nothing can happen all by itself. Hence, atheism, agnosticism are a lie, because there must exist the uncreated Creator as no other possibility avails.

http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2256

From this evidence we derive by proof the 66 books of God's Word.

It is a fallacy to keep saying you can disprove the proof for God or say you have already done so, but people can see you can't reproduce it here.

old comment by A Friend

I have a little chuckle every time a person claims to want freedom from religion yet remains religiously antichrist. This is a conflict of contradiction in their heart.

Don't be jealous of us Christians because we have eternal life which is eternal and can never be lost (once-saved-always-saved) as is not only taught in God's Word, but felt deeply by Christians intuitively by the regeneration and quickening of our spirits by the Holy Spirit that now indwells His sons and daughters.

What a glorious God that He has chosen out a people for Himself by His infinite foreknowledge (Rom. 8.29) of our free-choice.

The righteousness of God is applied in the creation of hell to keep those unsaved eternally separated from us because the unsaved don't want to be saved. How aweful it would be if God were to let those who belong in jail for life to be let out.

old comment by A Friend

Notice your own character and nature that you shut your mind down to the proof for God (4SPFG & MFA & TAO4C). You don't even try to disprove it or even examine it, but would rather hear yourself mindlessly rant something of no consequence. This ultimately shows you don't care anyway no matter how good the proof is which is proof in itself that you have chosen to go to hell. It is your own free-will in action.

What I love about this scenario is that God gives you the choice. He amply proves Himself, then leaves you to choose freely but also leaves you without excuse, because that evidence is world-wide, easily accessible, and intuitively known already.

Just realize that before you pass away (later to be resurrected after the 1000 years for hell), you still have the choice which God won't infringe upon, but He will continue to be there for you if you need Him. He will supply the grace and forgivenss of the cross if you let Him so that you may have His life through the resurrection of His Son. The only way to the Father is through the Son and by no other way or means can one be saved. It must be a free-gift at the source deriving nothing from self, that is nothing of your own planning or passion, but simply an authentic choice for the Holy Spirit to enter your spirit and remove the evil spirit.

A sinner can never redeem himself. Only the sinless Christ can do that for you, but you have to accept Him as He truly is and accept no substitutes of the 46000+ adherents in the world, including many in Christendom as well that are pretenders and charlatans (Revelation 17).

old comment by Illuminatalie

"but people can see you can't reproduce it here"
Just delusional is what you are. I do not believe that most people see you as anything but a nutbar. Your neurotic ramblings are not remotely convincing.

"Don't be jealous of us Christians"
Your extreme conceit and arrogance to think this is possible, is not at all convincing, either. Do you think I'm also jealous of people who have died, because they no longer have to suffer? Life must be a terrible burden to weak people like yourself.

"You don't even try to disprove it or even examine it, but would rather hear yourself mindlessly rant something of no consequence"
Look in the mirror, boy!

"later to be resurrected after the 1000 years for hell"
OK, so we die, but God doesn't just leave us alone, he restores us to life, just so he can torment us? I guess that an insane, cruel fanatic's "God" is just as insane and cruel as he is.

"accept no substitutes of the 46000+ adherents in the world"
Are you talking about the 46,000 types of religious belief which are wrong? (Unfortunately, there are slightly more than 46,000 adherents to religion in the world). And your belief, #46001, just happens to be the right one. As I said, your neurotic babbling is not at all convincing. How could it be?

Well, I guess it convinces me that fundamentalism is a mental disorder and probably I'm not doing you any good by arguing with you. There, there. Your world is real. Napoleon lives in a light bulb that went over the moon with Jesus.

old comment by Meister Owl

Ironically, the Bible tells Christians they are to act as a cult (1 Peter 3):

8 Last of all, you must share the same thoughts and the same feelings. Love each other with a kind heart and with a mind that has no pride.

But take a look at what he threw out the window! The very next verse!

9 When someone does something bad to you, do not do the same thing to him. When someone talks about you, do not talk about him. Instead, pray that good will come to him. You were called to do this so you might receive good things from God.

From what I've seen of the members of FSTDT, they're a pretty diverse bunch. You would have to have been living under a rock to think otherwise. Of this, he has failed to provide any proof beyond vague statements and accusations.

old comment by A Friend

God revealed Himself perfectly. We all know He exists. That is a non-issue. The issue is whether you have accepted His only begotten Son as your Lord and Savior for forgiveness of yours sins to be cleansed, to be presentable to God and receive eternal life.

Since nothing in nature happens all by itself (Step 1) then it must have a cause, but since it can't cause itself, the cause must uncaused whom we call the Creator, logically speaking. Who is He? Can we be more specific than merely address Him as the Intelligent Designer?

Case by case, you can compare Jesus to all others who claim to be the uncreated Creator, and Jesus always wins the case. Actually, very few claims of an uncreated even exist, and even fewer are those who walked the earth who made that claim.

Take for example His resurrection. 95+% of scholars in the past half century are in agreement Paul was authentic in truly believing what he wrote in Gal. 1 & 2, 1 Cor. 15 in which he said he met with John and Peter, the apostles, and they had agreed they all saw Jesus after his death on the cross resurrected. John was even present at the crucifixion along with the Mary, the mother of Jesus.

Modern psychology says group hallucination is not possible because hallucinations are individually experienced in the mind and have no objective reference. Therefore, group hallucination can't be an explanation for the group eyewitness accounts of His resurrection (12 different group settings are noted in the Scriptures). Suffice it to say, when Paul met with the original apostles on more than one occassion they talked about more than just the weather.

If you can't find an alternative explanation than Jesus really is God who broke into His creation, then it is most probably true (Minimal Facts Approach). Then you should receive Jesus as your Lord and Savior by coming to the cross as a helpless sinner.

If you wish to go the other route and claim the eternity of the past of cause and effects exists so there does not need to be a Creator, realize that assumption is simply false, because the exponential progression of conscience shows us that we would not still be sinning by now (e.g. no people in jails) if there had been an eternity of the past of cause and effects. (Step 1)

These are the reasons why Galileo, Newton, Einstein and Pascal believed in the innerancy of the 66 books of the Bible being God's Word.

old comment by Meister Owl

Well, let's see. He says that if there was an eternity of cause and effect we'd all be sinless. Sounds valid, right? Sure it is! Because he keeps repeating it over and over again. Let's throw in random facts that are difficult to prove like so your focus will be on something other than Step 1:

So, conscience has been eternal, right? Sure has! God was there, so there had to be! So fungi, algae, trees, fish, dogs, cats all have a conscience! Wow!

Wait a minute...

Isn't conscience a human concept? No! Of course not! That would invalidate the whole premise for the four step perfect proof, and we can't have that!

Okay, carry on!

old comment by A Friend

Conscience is not a human construct, for man does not create a conscience but merely responds to this element of our being in our spirit. By abiding in the will of our creator of our conscience though our conscience can be improved.

Even you have a conscience however dull and corrupted it has become, because presumably you don't rape small children and use nuclear bombs to blow up cities, at least not yet. You even feel guilty when you do something you know is wrong at least on one occassion in your dreary past. You are not a totally lost cause, for you yet can come to the cross as a helpless sinner to receive what Jesus did for you on the cross to be forgiven for all your sins and receive a new spirit indwelt by the Holy Spirit. But God gives you the choice to refuse him, remain unforgiven and bound for hell (in other words, remaining a bad person as you wish).

You're not understanding the reality behind our observation of the exponential progression of conscience. Because man's conscience came into being when man was made in God's image with a spirit, soul and body, that does not pose any difficulting in what the progression of conscience reveals to us.

Think of it this way. If there was an eternity of the past of cause and effects, then all things would effectively have approximated in the past to an eternity. That is what calculus teaches: anything approximating infinity is deemed as infinitely derived. Therefore, wherever humans began in the past we would have been infinitely derived such that we would have had effectively an eternity to observe the exponential progression in our conscience, but at the same time, an infinity is not needed to reach sinlessness or near sinlessness (e.g. no more people in jails). Step 1 really is a powerful proof.

Once you realize there cannot be an eternity of the past of cause and effects as a lame excuse to reject God, you can move onto Step 2 which proves to us since nothing is without a cause IN NATURE then the natural universe cannot cause itself, but only one possibility exists that the uncreated is the cause by intelligent design.

Then you can begin who is this God, this Uncreated Creator? Where or better yet, in Whom has He revealed Himself?

old comment by Meister Owl

Evidence, please?

This whole passage is necessary for being inflammatory, but nothing else. If you left this out, I would likely be much more receptive to your reasoning. But really, you are demonstrating that you don't have any such intention.

It also can mean that there was an eternity of past events before man had a conscience.

That's because calculus allows us to skip having to deal with infinity and getting to determine practical things like maximums and minimums.

Therefore, wherever humans began in the past we would have been infinitely derived such that we would have had effectively an eternity to observe the exponential progression in our conscience

No you wouldn't need to observe it, it would simply just have happened, an infinite series of events could have happened before humans became conscionable. Now, if you remain polite, perhaps we can discuss at length about the development of conscience.

Once you realize there cannot be an eternity of the past of cause and effects as a lame excuse to reject God, you can move onto Step 2 which proves to us since nothing is without a cause IN NATURE then the natural universe cannot cause itself, but only one possibility exists that the uncreated is the cause by intelligent design.

Okay, but you still haven't proven Step 1. You know, you really should lay off the insults, I've highlighted it with italics. The Bible, namely 1 Peter 3:9 states this. Or do you do this because Jesus will forgive you and let you into heaven anyway?

Then you can begin who is this God, this Uncreated Creator? Where or better yet, in Whom has He revealed Himself?

Okay, I'll be sure to friend you on Facebook and sign up at your groups when I get to that point ;D, but really, if you are going to resort to insults and inflammatory rhetoric, why waste my time?

old comment by A Friend

You're misreading 1 Pet. 3.9 for I am telling you the truth of your real condition according to God's Word and why you need to be resurrected for hell because you call Jesus a liar, and you do so, because you are a bad person. Why would you want someone to lie to you about your real condition or be coy about it (Satan would and he'll accuse falsely as do you)? A loving person tells the truth. If someone is doing harm to others, God wants us to do something about it, just as I have told you the truth about the harm you do to yourself and others by your being an unregenerate. Nothing is more asinine and belligerent than rejecting what Jesus did for you on the cross. It is the greatest sin known to mankind to reject what our Creator did for us to save us from our sins that lead to sure death (I am referring not just to physical, but also the second death which is hell).

Would there be an infinity before the first God-conscious man? Actually no, since there is not an infinity of the past of cause and effects. The point is mute either way, because all things are deemed as infinitely derived from the past if there was an eternity of the past of cause and effects as all things would approximate infinity. Infinity + 1 day vs. infinity +2 days is essentially infinity for our purposes.

You need not be facetious on facebook, for the answer has always been known in the freest, most widely dispersed book on the planet...the Bible (66 books). 6 is the number of Satan and it is the number of man, but through God's redemptive design He is using His Word to separate this union.

If God is going to reveal Himself, He won't do it in pockets here and there, but He reaches the whole planet. In fact, though it is likely less than 1 in 100 people are actually born-again (based on certain evidences such as the size of the new city), did you know polls show 1 in 3 people on the planet at least call themselves Christians. Think about that! Though not all saved, people are convicted to a certain extent to at least call themselves Christians whatever that may mean to them.

Jesus did not die on the cross in vain! He said He is God, walked the walk and talked the talk and fully proved Himself. His prophecies fulfilled recorded centuries early is unprecendented such as Daniel's prophecy when Jesus would be born into creation. Scholars agree the best argument is the Minimal Facts Approach which remains unchallenged to this day. It simply focuses on that which most scholars agree on that Paul truly believed what he wrote in Gal. 1 & 2, 1 Cor. 15. There is at least this common ground among most scholars that can be agreed upon. Beginning from this point, we are left with no other conclusion than Jesus was really resurrected because modern day psychology does not allow for group hallucinations.

old comment by A Friend

The common feature of the unregerenate as I was one once also, for remember I too was once unsaved as all people were once unsaved who later became saved, is that of shutting one's mind down and carrying on in the world doing whatever you do oblivious to the proof for God. In fact the proof for God can be shown to you yet you still don't care. There is some disconnect in your mind and heart that you stop short by shutting your mind down to go back on into the world married to it as though nothing is wrong with your real condition. That is Satan's doing to convince you to be that way. Obviously, he has done a lot in this area to convince people to shut down their minds to the proof for God (4SPFG), that Jesus is God (MFA) and we are in need of salvation through repentance and justification by faith. You see until you appreciate you are a sinner and all things begin and end in Christ, you are just like a walking zombie in the world, the unforgiven. To help you relate, think of yourself as one lost in the Matrix in a deep dark sleep and Satan is feeding off you like the machine world fed off people like batteries. Before this condition occured God accounted for man's fallen nature and made us all in His image to give us the free-choice to come out and receive what His Son does on the cross. The choice between the red and blue pill has always been there since the age of accountability. God won't force your decision, but leaves it up to you otherwise it would not be truly free-will as God wants to walk with sovereign beings made in His image who accept Him as He truly is. It is like a parent having a child and they have good relations.

Just know it is not too late for you, but realize why all your efforts are against the Christian, because you know deep down inside we were chosen before the foundations of the world to be with God in the new city and new earth for eternity and you're jealous, because you don't know how not to keep being selfish in your unwillingness and separation from God.

old comment by

Troy, your dedication as a troll is comical. We don't answer you back because, whatever we say, either you don't understand it or deliberately ignore it and continue with your litany, as if nothing had happened. If you really care about our conversion, and not self-indulging in your egocentrism, you'd realise by now that everybody, Christians included, call you moron. If your platitudes had some grain of truth, somebody would have teamed with you, joined you, at least in a proportion of 50-50% with respect to other people. And again, the only thing you do is spamming other forums, including this one, and parroting one, twice, three times instead of wondering if it's not your theory who goes wrong, judging the result. If you're a troll, you're not even funny.

old comment by Meister Owl

I'm misreading?

When someone does something bad to you, do not do the same thing to him. When someone talks about you, do not talk about him. Instead, pray that good will come to him.

It seems pretty clear to me. Or is it that it's only valid when you use it?

Did I hurt your feelings? I'm sorry. I had no idea I was trying to start a fight with you by not agreeing with your four step proof. You know what "belligerent" means, right? I'm being asinine because I can still easily see that time could have been infinite before man had a conscience? Sorry. Maybe that's because time probably is.

There's no need to use names and inflammatory terms to send a message. But you have proceeded to do so. This isn't necessary, unless you're trolling, and a lovely piece of evidence of which is featured on the post at the top of this page.

Infinity is a concept, a way of dealing with a value so large or small, that the actual existence of it is essentially absurd. And I see you show that time can indeed be infinite.

And you accuse me of being coy?

If I see that you're right, why wouldn't I want to confer with you on all things? After all, you've said I'm corrupted and dull! Why should I convert and go off on my own merry way? You've made several comments about so many other Christians who are also hellbound, why would I trust anyone but you!

Of course, this is giving some insight into one of my reasons for not being religious. Someone else's need to exert their personal control over others.

If God is going to reveal Himself, He won't do it in pockets here and there, but He reaches the whole planet.

Right! And what a bang up job an omnipotent being has done in reaching everyone. And Satan is just so puny but fools so many people. Wow!

In fact, though it is likely less than 1 in 100 people are actually born-again (based on certain evidences such as the size of the new city), did you know polls show 1 in 3 people on the planet at least call themselves Christians. Think about that! Though not all saved, people are convicted to a certain extent to at least call themselves Christians whatever that may mean to them.

So, you'll contradict yourself and ask me to jump on the bandwagon at the same time.

Okay, so you're going to shift the topic to this Minimal Facts Approach? What's wrong?

Srsly, if you're just going to waste my time, I'll find more productive things to do.

old comment by Meister Owl

So "A Friend" says he's not being insulting and just telling me the truth. I thought that since I have a little bit of time I'd throw this little extra tidbit.

He wrote this:

I've read enough apologetics in my local paper's editorial section to understand, so I tried to rewrite it without the insults.

This is my translation:

I know you have a conscience, and I doubt you've had to serve hard time for something like murder. I would imagine that you would even feel guilty for the things you think are wrong. You are not totally lost, because Jesus will forgive all those who sincerely ask his forgiveness. You will then be forgiven of your sins and given a new nature by the Holy Spirit. But you have to come freely to God, so it's your choice. If you refuse to accept Jesus, God has no choice but to separate you from him.

A Friend, I think your paragraph was written especially to be a prelude to make it's audience angry. Since you mention you were "unsaved" once, then I would imagine that you know exactly what would be insulting to an unbeliever. This is leading me to believe that you're not evangelizing, but trolling. If you can convince me that you're not trolling, I'll talk some more. If you can't, I'll find a more productive way to spend my time. Understand?

old comment by Reverend Davidius

here's their perfect proof, I had to go to a damn fundie site for this, so pretend to thank me

Step 1 - If there had been an eternity of the past of cause and effects, we would have had an eternity to be perfected without sin, but since we still sin, we know there was not an eternity of the past of cause and effect. And thus we were created by God of the Bible, given Christ for none can compare! Psychological studies can be done to verify in just these past 6000 years the exponential progression of the conscience of mankind, that it will not take another 6000 years to reach sinlessness in the saved, e.g. God works in long transitions from the OT period of 4000 years to the dispensation of grace of 2000 years, eventually reaching the kingdom of 1000 years. Each period exhibits a new grace. Did you notice anything special? This is an exponential progression. For example, throwing children as sacrifices into the fiery mouth of the Molech-type god is virtually non-existent now as many nations once did in the past. Israel got rid of some of those evil nations like the Philistines. Other such peoples were the Talismanics, Mayans, Incas, Aztecs, TaoTuoKongs, Egyptians, Romans, Persians, Philistines, etc. The only place you really see this today is in Islam, teaching their kids to be suicide mass-murderers. There are lots of data points for other examples, e.g. the murder rate and crime rate per capita have continued to go down millennia after millennia and usually, century after century. Cannibalism, slavery are now outlawed today. A Hindu practice whereby a widow immolates herself on the funeral pyre of her husband is now abolished by law. It was the impact of Christianity that put a stop to these things, that is, because Jesus came to earth, died on the cross and was resurrected. What will come in place of a Christian society? One of diminished value and cynical.

Step 2 - Nothing in nature or time happens all by itself. It always has a cause. Therefore, since nature must always have a cause, the only possibility that exists is the uncreated created who is Jesus since none can compare to Christ. Don't let the cunning try to deceive you by saying what is true of Newtonian and Einsteinian Physics is not true of Quantum Physics just because of its complexity. That's called snake oil. You can catch a person in the act selling the snake oil when they desperately argue for their puff-the-magic-dragon stories, that it happens all by itself, lol.

Step 3 - If you want to try to disprove this Proof, do not try to disprove some god, but keep your issues directed at God of the Bible.

Step 4 - Because Step 1 & 2 proved the supernatural, Step 4 can address the supernatural as Step 1 handled the natural. The finding is there could not have been an eternity of the past of cause and effects of gods creating gods because you would have had an eternity to be perfected to be without sin. Therefore, know you were created by the Trinity since none can compare to Christ in what He did for you on the cross and resurrection.

old comment by A Friend

p.s. this is the last post I will ever post at fstdt because adherents of fstdt are so mindless. The only reason it is in my awareness is because it is the number one site that keeps hitting my site. I see fstdt all over the place at statcounter which I try to check once a month. My preference is it lessens because I get a lot of mindless registrants and as you know biblocality.com is for deeper discussion.

So basically this is how the conversation goes when having a discussion at fstdt.

Mindless fstdt adherent: <some assumption about the 4SPFG and MFA is labelled>

My response: The truth of your mistaken assumption is as follows...

etc and it goes on and on and on until they are cut off in hell. You see after 10 tries or a 100 tries or a 1000 tries the fstdt adherent is still always wrong, they still can't find a specific problem with the proof for God in the 4SPFG & MFA as given by the Scriptures, yet they continue to speak, lol, bear false witness and misinterpret yet again. They do this because they don't care anyway and hell is for them.

Funny. I am saddened that they are going to hell, yet we whom are saved shall not always shed a tear for them.

My prayer is hopefully I will see less of fstdt at statcounter entering my site for they smother the inflow that is observed.

old comment by A Friend's Friend

This has already been answered many many times. Repeating it and avoiding the response does not help the atheist, but exposes his condition of belligerency and being bound for hell.

Take for example this latest comment that the person just assumes there could be an eternity of the past before conscience began in mankind. The mistake made does not pay attention to the proof for God that makes this impossible due to the exponential progression of conscience that we observe and simple calculus confirms.

If there was an eternity of the past of cause and effects before the existence of conscience in mankind, mankind would still have been existing in the APPROXIMATION to an eternity of the past according to calculus by the law of limits that says anything nearing to an eternity is deemed as existing from eternity. This is the most basic law of calculus for practical purposes.

Conclusion: there cannot be an eternity of the past of cause and effects, leaving only one viable explanation: the uncreated and eternal creator created.

Who is He? Jesus Christ, for none can compare to the Trinity of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit.

old comment by Meister Owl

This has already been answered many many times. Repeating it and avoiding the response does not help the atheist, but exposes his condition of belligerency and being bound for hell.

You may have answered it many times, but I have only asked once before. Just take a deep breath and keep that in mind as we continue.

A belligerent is an individual, group, country or other entity which acts in an aggressive or hostile manner, such as engaging in combat.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belligerent

If I were being belligerent, I would have resorted to insults and inflammatory rhetoric. Only once have I been sarcastic.

Take for example this latest comment that the person just assumes there could be an eternity of the past before conscience began in mankind.

That's because 4SPG doesn't show that there couldn't. It assumes that time has to be finite.

The mistake made does not pay attention to the proof for God that makes this impossible due to the exponential progression of conscience that we observe and simple calculus confirms.

The "exponential increase in conscience" isn't clearly linked to mankind's development of conscience, therefore, it does not conclude a finite timespan that needed a creator to start it all. Because you say that conscience has pre-existed mankind, it's strange that only humans can be considered to be possessing conscience.

It looks like English, it has proper spelling and grammar, but it doesn't appear to mean anything at all. Trying to say that we'd only be living in approximation to eternity is a fallacy.

Like science, mathematics doesn't prove reality, it simply models it. There can be nonsense answers in mathematics, and calculus is no exception to the rule.

This is the most basic law of calculus for practical purposes.

Conclusion: there cannot be an eternity of the past of cause and effects, leaving only one viable explanation: the uncreated and eternal creator created.

Ohhh. So close and yet, so far.

Who is He? Jesus Christ, for none can compare to the Trinity of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit.

Well, I'll hand it to you, A Friend, you've laid off the insults and inflammatory remarks. Kudos!

old comment by Deriamis

The cult of the FSTDT is a cult of agnostics/atheists
CULT is a religious term. Way to contradict yourself, dickcheese.

who call Jesus a liar, yet they have no reason for doing so.
No, we're calling you a liar. Fortunately, we're winning:

What FSTDT really stands for is For Satan The Demonic Teacher.
Liar. Nice backronym, though - you won't mind if we keep it just to piss you off...?

In spite of the fact that God of the Bible is proven in the 4 Step Perfect Proof
Liar! At great risk to my own sanity, I have read the so-called 4-Step Perfect Proof, and there are enough holes in the reasoning of that article to drive a Mack truck through. And besides, if you need proof for something you say we should take on faith, then you are a liar when you say you have faith.

they still remain shutting their minds down.
Liar! We use reason - you use rhetoric. Reason requires mental effort; rhetoric requires regurgitation. If all you can do is cite the 4-Step Perfect Proof without actually using it, then you aren't using your brain.

When I am against something, I at least have some evidence
Liar! You haven't presented any facts but false ones, so you show yourself to be a bald-faced liar by your own admission.

yet they need none because they operate as a cult.
And you don't? You have already insulted us, spread misinformation for no purpose other than to cast a bad light on us, and lied for Jesus. I would guess that makes you (and your sock puppets) a cult of liars.

image

old comment by Delmania

In spite of the fact that God of the Bible is proven in the 4 Step Perfect Proof

The funny thing about this proof is that is relies on the Causality argument for the existence of God, which makes it easy to dismantle.
The causility argument can be used to prove that there was a first cause, but it can not prove what that first cause was. The author attempts to gloss over this fact with step 3, but this makes the proof fall apart. Essentially, you need to prove the causility argument, then you need to prove that the first cause was God, and then you need to prove that the Bible portrays God accurately.

There has never been, and there will never be, something that can either prove or disprove the existence of God. It's impossible, which is why belief in Him is based on faith and not on logic.

old comment by

Hahahaha they are insulting a website full of their own quotes, all this website represents is the hole that they have dug themselves, they see how ridiculous it is and see it as anti-christian because the things on here are so outrageous, but these are their own people who have said them. fstdt wouldn't exist were they not such retards, so basically he's pissed off that we're quoting them, because he's scared people will realise just how retarded that are. Nice. :) p.s. you are the only people who believe in satan, we on the other hand see this idea as equally pathetic as others invented by YOUR RELIGION - do not critisise us for believing in satan - you have created hatred of your God by being and idiot, not us by following satan.

old comment by Meister Owl

#419423

So basically this is how the conversation goes when having a discussion at fstdt.

Mindless fstdt adherent: <some assumption about the 4SPFG and MFA is labelled>

My response: The truth of your mistaken assumption is as follows...

It's not nice to lie, PamelaAn

And pretending to be a female, no less, Mr. Brooks. Why would you mislead people like that?

old comment by GreasetrapTheViking

this 4 step "proof" belongs here too:

"1) If there had been an eternity of the past of cause and effect, we would have had an eternity to be perfected without sin, but since we still sin, we know there was not an eternity of the past of cause and effect. And thus we were created by God of the Bible given Christ. Psychological studies can be done to verify in just these past 6000 years the exponential progression of the conscience of mankind, that it will not take another 6000 years to reach sinlessness in the saved.

2) Nothing in nature and time happens all by itself. It always has a cause therefore since it must have a cause always we know God did it, given Christ.

3) If you wish to try to disprove this Proof, do not try to disprove some god, but keep your issues directed at God of the Bible given Christ.

4) Just as Step 1 treats the natural, there is also the supernatural, in which there could not have been an eternity of the past of cause and effects of gods creating gods, otherwise, you would have had an eternity to be perfected to be without sin. Ergo, God did it given Christ."

old comment by Lee Strobel

CHRIST: THE FULFILLMENT OF PROPHECY
by D. James Kennedy

Some time ago I had the opportunity to speak to a man who had no belief whatsoever in the Scriptures as any sort of divine revelation from God. He was a writer who was articulate and well-educated. While he was well-read, he was completely ignorant of any evidences for the truthfulness of the Christian faith and the Scriptures which reveal it. He said the Bible was simply a book written by men, just like any other book. I said, "That's very interesting. I would like to read some statements to you about someone and have you tell me, assuredly, without question, about whom I am reading."

He agreed and began to read:

"Those who hate me without cause are more numerous than the hairs of my head" (Ps 69.4)
The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers conspire together against the LORD and His Anointed One" (Ps 2.2)
"Even my friend in whom I trusted, one who ate my bread, has lifted up his heel against me" (Ps 41.9)
"Strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered" (Zch 13.7)
"Then I said to them, 'If it seems right to you, give me my wages; but if not, keep them.' So they weighed my wages, 30 pieces of silver. 'Throw it to the potter,' the LORD said to me-this magnificent price I was valued by them. So I took 30 pieces of silver and threw it into the house of the LORD, the potter" (Zch 11.12-13).
"They are striking the judge of Israel on the cheek with a rod" (Mc 5.1).
"I gave My back to those who beat Me, and My cheeks to those who tore out My beard. I did not hide My face from scorn and spitting" (Is 50.6).
"They pierced my hands and my feet" (Ps 22.16).
"My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?" (Ps. 22.1).
"Everyone who sees me mocks me; they sneer and shake their heads: 'He relies on the Lord; let Him rescue him; let the LORD deliver him, since He takes pleasure in him'" (Ps 22.7-8).
"They gave me gall for my food, and for my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink'" (Ps 22.7-8).
"I am poured out like water, and all my bones are disjointed; my heart is like wax, melting within me" (Ps 22.14).
"Yet He Himself bore our sicknesses, and He carried our pains; but we in turn regarded Him stricken, struck down by God, and afflicted" (Is 53.4).
"He was oppressed and afflicted, yet He did not open His mouth. Like a lamb led to the slaughter and like a sheep silent before her shearers, He did not open His mouth" (Is 53.7).
"They divided my garments among themselves, and they cast lots for my clothing" (Ps 22.18).
"He submitted Himself to death" (Is. 53.12).
"He bore the sin of many and interceded for the rebels" (Is 53.12).
"You may not break any of its bones" (Ex. 12.46).
"He protects all his bones; not one of them is broken" (Ps. 34.20).
"They will look at Me whom they have pierced" (Zch 12.10).
"They made His grave with the wicked,a nd with a rich man at His death, although He had done no violence and had not spoken deceitfully" (Is 53.9).
"For You will not abandon me to Sheol; You will not allow Your Faithful One to see the Pit" (Ps 16.10).
"You ascended to the heights, taking away captives; You received gifts from the people, even from the rebellious, so that the LORD God might live there" (Ps 68.18).
"The LORD declared to my Lord: 'Sit at My right hand until I make Your enemies Your footstool'" (Ps 110.1).
I said to him, "About whom did I read?"

He replied, "Well you obviously read of the life and ministry and suffering and death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth."

I said, "Is there any question in your mind about that?"

He answered, "No, that could refer to no one else."

I replied, Well then, I would want you to understand that all of the Scriptures I just read to you are taken from the Old Testament, which was completed some four hundred years before Jesus was born. No critic, no atheist, no agnostic has ever once claimed that any one of those written after His birth. In fact, they were translated from Hebrew into Greek in Alexandria some 150 years before He was born. If this is merely a book written by men, would you please explain to me how these words were written?"

He said, "I haven't the faintest idea." He was completely nonplussed. He had never heard those things before in his life. Indeed they cannot be explained by any purely humanistic presuppositions.

It is noteworthy that in no other religious writings in the world do we find any specific predictive prophecies like we find in the Scripture. You will find no predictive prophecies whatsoever in the writings of Buddha, Confucius, Mohammed, Lao-Tse, or Hinduism. Yet in the Scripture there are well over two thousand prophecies, most of which have already been fulfilled.

They are so specific in nature that they burn all the bridges behind them. IF they are not fulfilled, it leaves no room for excuse. How can these be explained? Of all the attacks that have ever been made upon the Scripture, there has never been one book written by a skeptic to disprove the prophecies of the Scripture. Though the Bible has been attacked at every other place, the one place where God rests His inspiration is that the things He foretells come infallibly to pass.

The Bible prophecies are altogether unexpected! I know of no one ever prophesying that any other human being would rise from the dead and be ascended into heaven. That is exceedingly improbable. The chance of it happening by coincidence is incalculable. No, the Bible is not merely a book written by men; it is a book written by God through men, and the heart of its prophetic message is Jesus Christ.

old comment by Lee Strobel

How Apologetics Changed My Life

Author, The Case for Christ, The Case for Faith, The Case for the Real Jesus and The Case for a Creator

Skepticism is part of my DNA. That's probably why I ended up combining the study of law and journalism to become the legal editor of The Chicago Tribune-a career in which I relentlessly pursued hard facts in my investigations. And that's undoubtedly why I was later attracted to a thorough examination of the evidence-whether it proved to be positive or negative-as a way to probe the legitimacy of the Christian faith.

A spiritual cynic, I became an atheist in high school. To me the mere concept of an all-loving, all-knowing, all-powerful creator of the universe was so absurd on the surface it didn't even warrant serious consideration. I believe that God didn't create people, but that people created God out of their fear of death and their desire to live forever in a utopia they called heaven.

I married an agnostic named Leslie. Several years later she came to me with the worst news I thought I could ever get: She had decided to become a follower of Jesus. My initial thought was that she was going to turn into an irrational holly roller who would waste all her time serving the poor in a soup kitchen somewhere. Divorce, I figured, was inevitable.

Then something amazing occurred. During the ensuing months, I began to see positive changes in her character, her values, and the way she related to me and the children. The transformation was winsome and attractive. So one day when she invited me to go to church with her, I decided to comply.

The pastor gave a talk called "Basic Christianity" in which he clearly spelled out the essentials of the faith. Did he shake me out of my atheism that day? No, not y a long shot. Still, I concluded that if what he was saying was true, it would have huge implications for my life.

That's when I decided to apply my experience as a journalist to investigate whether there is any credibility to Christianity or any other faith system. I resolved to keep an open mind and follow the evidence wherever it pointed-even if took me to some uncomfortable conclusions. In a sense, I was checking out the biggest story of my career.

At first, I thought my investigation would be short-lived. In my opinion, having "faith" meant you believed something even though you knew in your heart that it couldn't be true. I anticipated that I would very quickly uncover facts that would devastate Christianity. Yet as I devoured books by atheists and Christians, interviewed scientists and theologians, and studied archaeology, ancient history, and world religions, I was stunned to find that Christianity's factual foundation was a lot firmer than I once believed.

Much of my investigation focused on science, where more recent discoveries have only further cemented the conclusions that I drew in those studies. For instance, cosmologists now agree that the universe and time itself came into existence at some point in the finite past. The logic is inexorable: Whatever begins to exist has a cause, the universe began to exist, and therefore the universe has a cause. It makes sense that this cause must be immaterial, timeless, powerful, and intelligent.

What's more, physicists have discovered over the last 50 years that many of the laws and constants of the universe-such as the force of gravity and the cosmological constant-are finely tuned to an incomprehensible precision in order for life to exist. This exactitude is so incredible that it defies the explanation of mere chance.

The existence of biological information in DNA also points toward a Creator. Each of our cells contains the precise assembly instructions for every protein out of which our bodies are made, all spelled out in a four-letter chemical alphabet. Nature can produce patterns, but whenever we see information-whether it's in a book or a computer program-we know there's intelligence behind it. Furthermore, scientists are finding complex biological machines on a cellular level that defy a Darwinian explanation and instead are better explained as the work of an Intelligent Designer.

To my great astonishment, I became convinced by the evidence that science supports the belief in a Creator who looks suspiciously like the God of the Bible. Spurred on by my discoveries, I then turned my attention to history.

I found that Jesus, and Jesus alone, fulfilled ancient messianic prophecies against all mathematical odds. I concluded that the New Testament is rooted in eyewitness testimony and that it passes the tests that historians routinely use to determine reliability. I learned that the Bible has been passed down through the ages with remarkable fidelity.

However, the pivotal issue for me was the resurrection of Jesus. Anyone can claim to be the Son of God, as Jesus clearly did. The question was whether Jesus could back up that assertion by miraculously returning from the dead.

One by one, the facts built a convincing and compelling case. Jesus' death by crucifixion is as certain as anything in the ancient world. The accounts of His resurrection are too early to be the product of legendary development. Even the enemies of Jesus conceded that His tomb was empty on Easter morning. And the eyewitness encounters with the risen Jesus cannot be explained away as mere hallucinations or wishful thinking.

All of this just scratches the surface of what I uncovered in my nearly two-year investigation. Frankly, I was completely surprised by the depth and breadth of the case for Christianity. And as someone trained in journalism and law, I felt I had no choice but to respond to the facts.

So on November 8, 1981, I took a step of faith in the same direction that the evidence was pointing-which is utterly rational to do-and became a follower of Jesus. And just like the experience of my wife, over time my character, values, and priorities began to change-for the good.

For me, apologetics proved to be the running point of my life and eternity. I'm thankful for the scholars who so passionately and effectively defend the truth of Christianity-and today my life's goal is to do my part in helping others get answers to questions that are blocking them in their spiritual journey towards Christ.

old comment by Robert Stack

How do I become a Christian?

How to Become a Christian

The central theme of the Bible is God's love for you and for all people. This love was revealed when Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came into the world as a human being, lived a sinless life, died on the cross, and rose from the dead. Because Christ died, your sins can be forgiven, and because He conquered death you can have eternal life. You can know for sure what will become of you after you die.

You have probably heard the story of God's love referred to as the "Gospel." The word Gospel simply means "Good News." The Gospel is the Good News that, because of what Christ has done, we can be forgiven and can live forever.

But this gift of forgiveness and eternal life cannot be yours unless you willingly accept it. God requires an individual response from you. The following verses from the Bible show God's part and yours in this process:

God's Love Is Revealed in the Bible

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." --John 3:16 (NIV)

God loves you. He wants to bless your life and make it full and complete. And He wants to give you a life which will last forever, even after you experience physical death.

We Are Sinful

"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." --Romans 3:23 (NIV)

You may have heard someone say, "I'm only human -- nobody's perfect." This Bible verse says the same thing: We are all sinners. We all do things that we know are wrong. And that's why we feel estranged from God -- because God is holy and good, and we are not.

Sin Has a Penalty

"For the wages of sin is death." --Romans 6:23 (NIV)

Just as criminals must pay the penalty for their crimes, sinners must pay the penalty for their sins. If you continue to sin, you will pay the penalty of spiritual death: You will not only die physically; you will also be separated from our holy God for all eternity. The Bible teaches that those who choose to remain separated from God will spend eternity in a place called hell.

Christ Has Paid Our Penalty!

"But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." --Romans 5:8 (NIV)

The Bible teaches that Jesus Christ, the sinless Son of God, has paid the penalty for all your sins. You may think you have to lead a good life and do good deeds before God will love you. But the Bible says that Christ loved you enough to die for you, even when you were rebelling against Him.

Salvation Is a Free Gift

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith -- and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God -- not by works, so that no one can boast." --Ephesians 2:8-9 (NIV)

The word grace means "undeserved favor." It means God is offering you something you could never provide for yourself: forgiveness of sins and eternal life, God's gift to you is free. You do not have to work for a gift. All you have to do is joyfully receive it, Believe with all your heart that Jesus Christ died for you!

Christ Is at Your Heart's Door

"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me." --Revelation 3:20 (NIV)

Jesus Christ wants to have a personal relationship with you. Picture, if you will, Jesus Christ standing at the door of your heart (the door of your emotions, intellect and will). Invite Him in; He is waiting for you to receive Him into your heart and life.

You Must Receive Him

"Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God." --John 1:12 (NIV)

When you receive Christ into your heart you become a child of God, and have the privilege of talking to Him in prayer at any time about anything. The Christian life is a personal relationship to God through Jesus Christ. And best of all, it is a relationship that will last for all eternity.

Receiving Him Now

If you want to receive Jesus now, and accept His gift of salvation, it's a matter of believing in Jesus Christ, repenting of your sins, and turning the rest of your life over to Him. This is not a ritual based on specific words, but rather, a prayerful guideline for your sincere step of faith.

“Father, I know that I have broken your laws and my sins have separated me from you. I am truly sorry, and now I want to turn away from my past sinful life toward you. Please forgive me, and help me avoid sinning again. I believe that your son, Jesus Christ died for my sins, was resurrected from the dead, is alive, and hears my prayer. I invite Jesus to become the Lord of my life, to rule and reign in my heart from this day forward. Please send your Holy Spirit to help me obey You, and to do Your will for the rest of my life. In Jesus' name I pray, Amen.”

If you decided to become a Christian today, welcome to God's family. Now, as a way to grow closer to Him, the Bible tells us to follow up on our commitment.

Get baptized as a public statement of your new faith in Christ.

Tell someone else about your new faith in Christ.

Spend time with God each day. It does not have to be a long period of time. Just develop the daily habit of praying to Him and reading His Word.

Ask God to increase your faith and your understanding of the Bible.

Seek fellowship with other Christians. Develop a group of Christian friends to answer your questions and support you.

Find a local church where you can worship God.

old comment by Sarah Robertson

God Is WillingAre You?
by Watchman Nee (CFP)

God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. (John 3.16)

To be misunderstood is one thing on earth which most people greatly dislike. A person means well and yet what he does is misinterpreted as being for ill. He does something in love, but it is misconstrued as being just the opposite. Oh, how many things there are in the world which irk people, and to be misunderstood is certainly one of them. Yet, I want to speak to you today about the One who is most misunderstoodeven God himself, who is so badly misunderstood by the entire world!

A few days ago I read in the newspaper about the story of an elderly pastor who recently met a young man on the street who said to him, “Alas, I have run up against a most unfortunate circumstance.” As he spoke, his tears flowed down his cheeks. “What is it?” asked the pastor. “It is most terrible,” replied the young man, and he continued to cry. Under further questioning, the young man pulled a letter from his pocket and said: “This is a letter sent me by a lawyer.” “Have you read it?” asked the pastor. “No, I dare not read it, for something terrible must have happened,” answered the young man. “Why don’t you read it and find out?” “A letter from a lawyer never conveys good news; it is always unlucky. And besides, I do not like to receive any lawyer’s letter.” So the pastor said, “Let me read it for you.” “All right,” responded the young man.

The pastor opened the letter, and after he had read it he asked the young man if he had truly not read the letter. Given an affirmative answer, he told the young man: “This letter from the lawyer is to notify you that one of your relatives is dead and has left a part of his estate to you. The executor is now in a certain place where you may go and claim over twenty thousand dollars of inheritance!”

Let me here observe that our attitude towards God is not any different from that of the young man towards the lawyer. As soon as we hear the word “God” we immediately become unhappy and grow uncomfortable, as though we believe, that this God were someone who had not one good thought towards men. We thus have two groups of people in the world: one group has already heard about God and has believed in the Lord Jesus; the other group has not yet believed in God and the Lord Jesus. I would think that all those who have already believed would most likely testify that before they believed, they had felt uneasy at the very mention of God or Jesus. They had most probably reacted just as the young man had towards the lawyer. But upon really believing, they without exception had most likely said, “How I wish I had believed earlier!”

The benefit of believing in the Lord Jesus far exceeds that of receiving an inheritance. What God says to the believer is far better than what the lawyer could ever say to the young man. For the word of God tells us that in believing the Lord Jesus we will go to heaven and have eternal life. I too dare to testify to the truthfulness of this statement. The first thing I would ask of you is for you not to be afraid of hearing about God, nor for you to think that His thought towards you is evil. For if you will hear me out, you will know what a good God He actually is.

Several years ago I was preaching the gospel in Southeastern Asia. There I met a boy whom I tried to persuade to believe in Christ. “Mr. Nee,” he said, “it is all right for us to be friends, but to believe in Jesus is not good.” The next time I met him, I talked to him again about believing in Jesus. And he gave me the same response. I asked him to explain. “I have a brother,” he said, “who believed in Jesus when he was six years old, but later he died. If I believe in Jesus, will not I die too like my brother? That is not good.” How this young lad misunderstood God! He misunderstood the very heart of God! Think for a minute. What kind of God do you think He is? Perhaps you conceive of Him as dark-faced, fierce and harsh. Or you may imagine Him as taking pleasure in seeing people sin so that He may send them to hell. How do you picture Him?

Once in my relative’s house, I met another kinsman of mine who was a PhD professor at Northeastern University. When I attempted to persuade him to believe in the Lord Jesus, I received the following reply: “Your God is bad. He has nothing to do in heaven but to pass His time scrutinizing the people on earth. He records whatever evil He sees in men and makes entries in a huge ledger. Then He judges them according to this record, condemning them to hell. So that your God is not good-hearted. He only records men’s evils and loves to see people go to hell.” What a misunderstanding this is! How he totally misinterpreted God’s heart! You may imagine that God hates you, that He wishes to condemn you to hell instead of saving you. But let me tell you, I know my God. Hence I wish to deliver a message to you, such, that by hearing it you will never let go of this God. Now hear His word!

“God so loved the world.” Please notice, God is love! How wonderful it is that God not only thinks of you, cares for you, notices you and is merciful to you, but He also loves you. Several days ago I was walking in the park. I ran into a former schoolmate whom I attempted to persuade to believe in the Lord Jesus. No matter how I tried, though, he would not believe. I was on the verge of crying. I thought to myself, If only he knew how much this God loves him! Yet what is most misunderstood concerning God is His love!

You may be wondering what kind of God He is. Will He save me? Can He save such a man as I am? You are therefore full of doubts. I wish to tell you that God not only pities you, cares for you and notices you, He even loves you! Ever since time began, the most difficult thing for God to do was to love men. Yet the very first thing He did after man had sinned against Him was to love. His thought towards men is good. How He longs for them to be saved. But you may entertain the thought that God is most fierce and cruel, that He desires you to be far away from Him. However, the Book which God gives to us declares that He is love! You are a sinner, yet God loves you. You are far away from Him, yet He loves you.

Again and again, God sent His servants to convey this very message to man. For example: “Can a woman forget her sucking child, that he should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, these may forget, yet will I not forget thee” (Is. 49.15). Oh, how He loves us! He even illustrates His love with an extreme example: “They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man’s, will he return unto her again? will not that land be greatly polluted? But thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith Jehovah” (Jer. 3.1).

How very willing God is to receive us sinners, yet this very factthat God loves menwe are unwilling to believe. People are continually reflecting on how God could ever be so good. Nevertheless, I must tell you that God is indeed love! He so loved the world that He finally conceived a plan whereby He himself would come into this world as a man that He might tell us of His love.

A few years ago I was resting in Kuling Mountain. I love the flowers, the grass and the birds of the mountains. Moreover, I dislike putting birds in cages; I would rather see them freely flying about. One day many of them came and ate up the rice I had left on the veranda. I thought this was very sportive of them. So I went to fetch. another bowl of rice for them. But who would have thought they would all fly away when I returned! Yet as soon as I again left, the birds all came back. Now I had not the slightest idea of catching them or hurting them. On the contrary, I loved to have them feed on my rice. And I would have liked to have sat among them and allowed them to surround me. What a joy that would have been. Nevertheless, these birds did not understand my heart. They always avoided me.

But then I thought that if I wanted the birds to understand me, I must become a bird and chatter like them, and then I could fly into their midst and tell them of my heart desire. Only then would they not misunderstand me. But I could not turn myself into a bird; I therefore had no way to reveal my heart to these creatures.

It is the same with God towards us. He loves us, He likes us, He wants us to be near Him. But we do not understand His heart. The word of God informs us how in olden times through His servants God revealed to mankind His heart desire of love towards us by diverse portions and in diverse manners (see Hebrews 1.1,2), but man failed to comprehend. He thus had no other way but to come himself to this world to become a man, and this man is Him whom we know of as Jesus Christ. Had I been able to become a bird, I would have been acclaimed as having been humble. Yet for God to become a man, how much more humble He must be.

old comment by Anti - Dei

I actually read that "article".

All sentences I can think of for a moment begin with What The Fuck.

What the fuck do you think you will achieve by posting that here? You, a typical Christian hypocrite, are apparently completely incapable of empathy(funny for me to say, my philosophy being closest to a sort of theistic satanism). If a Hindu or a Buddhist or a Muslim came to your forums and wrote that kind of converting bullshit, would you immediately leave your faith and join their religions? Whereas comparing atheism to a religion is not exactly correct, in this context it is acceptable.

Fuck Off and leave us to our "hell". I'm glad to remain as me.

old comment by An Apostle for the Church

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand" (Matt. 10.27-29).

You can't lose eternal life, you can't be a non-Christian once you are a Christian. It's impossible. This is called once-saved-always-saved. When God gives eternal life at new birth (when you are born-again), it sticks. It was your choice for forever.

Islam is wrong because you can't come along six centuries later and say Jesus didn't die on the cross without anything to support your claim. Jesus died on the cross for your sins to give eternal life. He is the uncreated Creator.

Hinduism is wrong because it teaches its creator Brahma is amoral, but this is a contradiction, because if we are an extension of Brahma, we would be amoral also, but we know that we are moral beings.

Buddhism is wrong because it teaches you to shut your mind down to all desire, but desire is a God-given ability to be used and harnessed.

You're not going to be reincarnated into bacteria that lives in the stool, so don't believe in that. You get this one life to live to be saved and not of works lest any man should boast.

Learn about the different paths to hell.

old comment by Travis

"In fact, you don't have an excuse at all even if I don't tell you anything, because you have a spirit of God-consciousness. God made you to know He exists, so shutting your mind down to what He needs from you by what He has done for you to save you is without excuse. His grace is bountiful through His Word and you have known the Bible exists ever since you were a young child."

And here we have the widespread "I know everything and I am inherently more right than everyone who disagrees with me". Used by almost every segment of society to support their views. So, as a general gambit, it fails.

More specifically, if this claim were true, there'd be a variety of evidence for this automatic consciousness of the Abrahamic God. That evidence would include secular sources, as it would be explicitly empirically measurable.

But you're not going to provide me with that evidence. You're going to sway me by posting hyperlinks to fallacious claptrap of your own writing liberally sprinkled with bible [quotes] which only [make] sense when [you] supply half the words yourself. You're going to claim that these screeds dismiss my argument without addressing it.

Then, when I don;t collapse and immediately embrace your position, you'll get into a huff and claim that it must be because I'm suppressing the inherent part of my brain that would cause a normal human being to agree with you.

Your arguments lack factual support. Even if taken in a vacuum, they fail to support themselves.

If people take issue with what you say, linking to it repeatedly isn't going to change their minds. Either put up (new, better, more cohesive assertions) or shut up (on this site, feel free to do what you like on your own).

old comment by Travis

Apostle, I already read that. I am not convinced.

As I predicted, you can't provide more convincing or even different information.

Everything you assert is based on assumptions taken as fact.
Now to be fair, almost anything anyone ever says is assumption-based, but you've excused yourself from any requirement to make sense.

To respond specifically to the questions you asked;

"If nothing in nature happens all by itself, then how can the universe start up all by itself?"

Prove that nothing happens "by itself". Once you can absolutely rule out the possibility of that happening, this question becomes valid. Currently it isn't.

Also, God doesn't solve that problem. Even if we assume a divine creator, where did they come from? They would be a 'something' that came from nothing, and you assert that that cannot happen. So whether God exists or not doesn't solve the question you raise.

"If there is an eternity of the past of cause and effects and man is deemed to have existed from that past, how could he still be sinning by now given the exponential progression of conscience we observe?"

First false assumption; Humans have existed for an infinite amount of time. Nobody's arguing that, and available evidence strongly suggests that it's untrue.

Second False assumption; that "Sin" is some empirical and rigorously defined factor. It isn't. There is no universally accepted definition of sin. Even people working from the Bible disagree. (For example, do you wear mixed fabrics or eat shellfish? If so, you commit sin according to Leviticus).
Accordingly, as you can't prove rigorously that sin even exists, we can't discuss whether it's prevalence means anything.

If you have any other questions you wish to have considered, feel free to provide them.

old comment by Rime

My intent is not to advertise

Nobody solicited you to put those copypastas on this website. If they did, you would be able to honestly say so.

but prove the truth to help lead you to Christ so you have no excuse before God when you go to Hell. This is the humble work of the body of Christ.

There are plenty of Christians who have tried to absolve their conscience by giving me a similar chance. The problem is that they almost always seek to exert their personal influence over me.

Even on Christian message boards, you have found something they don't like and turn it into a pointless and heated argument which leads you to being banned. Is it their fault if you can't be civil?

old comment by An Apostle for the Church

In fact you solicited and others solicited, so these posts are responses to your problems. It is like you are crying out for help.

Those aren't Christians, for Christians don't try to absolve their conscience by giving the gospel. Not at all. We whom are saved already have our conscience resolved because we have been forgiven by Jesus when He spilled His blood on the cross and saved us. The reason we give the gospel is because it gives us pleasure to do God's will to help lead you to Christ.

If someone on another forum bans a Christian, it is likely because that banner is not a Christian or at best a carnal Christian. The whole Word of God is given to edify. Nothing in God's Word is pointless.

Don't believe in the myth of atheism or agnosticism, since science proves there must be an uncreated creator. Nothing in nature happens all by itself; there is always a cause to everything in nature. If Jesus lied to you then how do you account for the proof of His resurrection which almost all skeptical scholars agree Paul really wrote Gal. 1 & 2, 1 Cor. 15? You guys got a contradiction.

There can be no peace but the peace in Christ for He created you and He is the ultimate giver of true peace. Anything else is a pale facsimile.

How to be a Christian.

old comment by An Apostle for the Church

The Lord Jesus Is Jehovah

Some may consider Jehovah to be God’s revelation in the Old Testament and therefore wonder if the New Testament people can enjoy the same benefits of that name. We thank and praise God because the Old Testament Jehovah is also the New Testament Jesus. The meaning of Jesus, in fact, is "Jehovah the Savior."

While on earth the Lord Jesus acknowledged himself to be the Jehovah of the Old Testament: "Except ye believe that I AM, ye shall die in your sins" (John 8.24). He told us here that He is the "I AM." Further on He also said this: "When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I AM" (v.28); and again: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was born, I AM" (v.58). He clearly declared that He is Jehovah, and the Jews themselves understood it, for it was because of this statement that "they took up stones . . . to cast at him" (v.59). Let us rejoice, for our Lord Jesus is the great I AM. HE IS! For our sakes, He is! He himself announces: I am the life, I am the resurrection, I am the light of the world, I am the bread of life, I am the good shepherd. We may receive all our supplies in the name of our Lord JesusJehovah the Savior! When we have His name, we have everything. How we thank Him for giving His name to us.

Jesus said, "As touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living" (Matt. 22.31,32).

old comment by Travis

"It is like you are crying out for help."

Except that nobody did. Criticising someone's behavior is not an invitation for them to come around and do it more.

"how do you account for the proof of His resurrection"

That proof sure would be difficult to refute.
I do hope you get around to providing it.

Although now that I think about it, you probably mean 'proof' in the sense of your laughably transparent '4 step proof for God', whereas I was seeking some actual evidence.

And just to cut this off at the pass- the Bible isn't evidence, for a variety of reasons. The Bible is a theory (and one that contradicts itself).
If you want to assert that the theory is true, you need supporting evidence that unambiguously supports it.

However, many, many theologians with more education, wit and scholastic rigor than you have failed in the task of finding that evidence. Good luck, though.

(In all honesty, I am not expecting you to actually do anything, just copy & paste those same unconvincing pages a few more times.)

old comment by Travis

"You are simply expressing yourself as one who wants to go to hell in a roundabout way."

And you're expressing yourself as a fool.

You came up with something that you thought explained the whole world, and you won't accept that others don't believe your flimsy little 'proof'.

The idea that the universe might be complex- or that you personally might not be important- oh no, can't let yourself understand anything that might lead to that. That would be frightening.

So, you subscribe to a system of belief where you can be right by declaring yourself so, and there's not even any obligation to try and be a good person- just a 'saved' one.

"The proof for the resurrection of Jesus, the uncreated Creator, was given so many times in this thread I can't even count. Here it is yet again."

That document of yours fails to meet the accepted definition of a proof in this context;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_argument

"My advice is simple then. Give your life to Christ and receive the joy and peace of salvation and plan God has for you as one of His own people.

If you don't want it, then you go to Hell. God gives you the choice. "

And it doesn't even cross your mind that giving someone the freedom to make an objectively bad choice isn't mercy.

If one of my infant sons is about to eat poison- he can't tell he's making a mistake. From his perspective, what he is doing is perfectly sensible.

Do I look on and let him suffer and die? No.

Do I lecture him about his failings as the poison goes to his mouth? No.

I reach down and stop him. Because I love him and I can't bear to let him be harmed, so I use my power to stop it.

In fact, even if I had no relationship to the kid at all I'd still save them. Even if they had hurt me, hurt my children, was behaviorally and physically repugnant- yes, even if they were 'an abomination unto me' to trot out the phrasing you like to attack minorities with- I'd still save them. To do otherwise would be murderous and cruel.

Your God apparently chooses to be much pettier than every human I have ever met, over a much bigger issue. That's...
horrific. Lucky it's not true really.

Us posting on a website we like is not a cry for help.
You coming here, again and again- is a cry for attention.
You'll get no more from me after this post. Go back to your own website and your own comfort zone.

As a final note; 'Minimal Facts Approach'? You couldn't pick a better summary of the way you choose to live if you tried.

old comment by An Apostle for the Church

You must be mistaken because I already know many do not accept what Christ did for them on the cross.

If the proof I gave you is flimsy, why can't you disprove it?

I don't see anything in the universe as being unimportant. In comparison to all other creatures on earth, we are quite miraculously distinct. Who can deny that? We have the ability to travel to Mars and eventually to another solar system one day, given enough time.

Christians are regenerated people with God's life, for we walk by the Spirit in faith in Christ, and Jesus was the best person who ever lived. Who better to emulate and receive atonement for our sins and power over sins by the Holy Spirit and when we died on the cross with Christ.

You would not be made in God's image if you did not have the choice to reject Him. There is no mercy in making you a robot, forcing you to believe in Him. What's the point in that?

God is telling you it is unhealthy to reject Him. He has grabbed you by dying on the cross for your sins, but still you reject that. Now you want Him to perform a parlor trick and stand right before you right now and shake it into you to believe in Him. I dare say you would still not believe Him. So He says how more wonderful it is that those who have never seen Him in person believe in Him.

Jesus died on the cross. I really don't see you if you were in the crowd going out and protecting Him from being murdered. I think you would be chanting on His death with the Jews. You are too practical to defend against such an injustice.

The Minimal Facts Approach says we don't need to worry about the innerancy of the Bible to prove God. All we need do is examine what most skeptical scholars believe and go from there on that common ground which is they almost all believe that Paul was being genuine in Gal. 1 & 2, 1 Cor. 15.

Hell is the place of eternal separation because it is the choice you have made in this life. In layman's terms it is where all the bad people go in this complex environment of God's intelligent design.

The reason I am here because you are so lost and you know not what you do.

old comment by An Apostle for the Church

[b]There Is a God[/b]

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. (Ps. 14.1)

Without faith it is impossible to be well-pleasing unto him; for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that seek after him. (Heb. 11.6)

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it speaketh to them that are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for through the law cometh the knowledge of sin. (Rom. 3.19-20)

Today I would like to talk about a subject which may not be easy to deal with. I confess that this is only the second time in my life I have delivered such a message. And it is that which is stated in a fragment found in Hebrews 11.6 which declares that “he that cometh to God must believe that he is.” Moreover, I would also like to touch upon the words of Psalm 14.1: “The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.” Actually the question of whether there is a God need not be answered, since the Bible never argues this point at all. The Bible takes for granted that men must believe in God because they have no reason not to believe so. It treats this matter as something already given. Nevertheless, there is today in this world a class of people who consider themselves atheists. They say there is no God, neither do they acknowledge there is a God who rules over all things. Such a contention seems to be quite popular these days and is warmly welcomed by a large number of people. Those who say these things appear to have minds newer than the rest of mankind and an ability superior to the general public; they therefore dare to assert such things. Before I attempt to burst their “intellectual bubble” let us recognize the several different kinds of atheists there are. For although most atheists would probably not accept such a classification as will be presented here, we as more objective observers are clearer than they themselves.

Atheists for Moral Reasons

Towards atheists of this kind there is no use saying anything to them nor arguing with them. All that is appropriate is to look at their lives, because their immorality speaks far more loudly than their words. They profess to be atheists not because they have convincing evidences that there is no God, but because their lives are such that it is expedient for them to say there is no God. Their own moral state keeps them from acknowledging that there is a God in the heavens and the earth. A bandit would like to believe there is no law enforcement; a bad student would like to believe there is no teacher; an unfaithful employee would like to be able to say there is no employer; and a wicked person would like to believe there is no law. This does not mean that they really do not believe that these things exist; it is simply that their own lives impel them not to accept these things at their face value. Yet if someone says to you, “I do not believe in God, for there is no such person as God in my mind,” you may respond by asking: “Friend, how about your moral life?” Nothing at all need be said but to ask whether that person lives morally or immorally.

People may disbelieve God, but they cannot deny there is morality. Let me tell you frankly, that though I am still young, yet of the people whom I have met in these few years of mine, at least ninety-nine out of a hundred atheists are questionable in respect of their personal morality. I have yet to meet an atheist who lives somewhat morally. There are some in the audience who are older than I. May I ask you if you have ever met an atheist whose morality is even slightly dependable? Whether asking fellow students, business associates, or friends, the atheists whom I have met are all morally corrupt; so that they cannot believe in God. Allow me to assert a truthful word, that if ever God goes out of a person, immorality takes His place in that one.

There was a well-known experienced preacher in America whose name was R.A. Torrey. Once when he was preaching at a certain place, a college student came up to him and said: “Formerly I believed in God, but lately I do not believe any more.” “For what reason do you now not believe?” asked Mr. Torrey. “Well, after I entered college, my knowledge increased; I therefore do not believe any more. I read this book and that book, until I eventually read God away,” replied the student. “Do not try to deceive me,” Mr. Torrey responded, “for I too was a college student. I have read many books and I have a doctor’s degree. But I have not read God away. You must have some hidden reason, otherwise you would not have read Him out of existence.” Then Mr. Torrey continued. “Let me ask you a question. Now that you do not believe in God, how about your moral life?” To which the student replied somewhat candidly, “I must confess that my morality now is not as good as before.” Whereupon Mr. Torrey concluded with a word that was indeed well-spoken: “I need not argue with you, nor raise up many reasons as proof to you. If you simply stop doing these bad things and begin to live more morally, God will immediately return.” How factual that is, for many fail to believe in God not because they have good reasons to do so but simply because their multitude of sins hinder them from believing. They are compelled to be atheists.

Stiff-Lipped Atheists

This group of people proclaims that there is no God, yet without giving any reason. They are so stiff-lipped that no one can reason with them. If you ask them why they do not believe in God, they have no reason to offer but nonetheless insist that they do not believe. How can you deal with such people? Having asserted that there is no God, they will not change their mind. You may talk with them for days and nights on end and may even convince them with arguments, yet they will still staunchly maintain their position. Whatever reasons they may eventually give are dogmatic and arbitrary. Their responses are quite adamant. What ever can you therefore do with them? The fact of the matter is that their mind is usually quite empty, having no reason to give; but their lips insistently declare there is no God. And hence we call them stiff-lipped atheists.

There is no way to reason with the above two types of atheists. Another group can be found, though, that is not quite as hopeless as these. Unfortunately, however, they are rather small in number. Who are they? We call them

Atheists for Intellectual Reasons

Who are these intellectual atheists? They are those who are open to reason. If you can prove to them with sufficient arguments then they are willing to accept your premise of God’s existence. For such people, there is the need of some reasoning, which indeed has value. Yet how few there are of this kind of atheists in the world. Now I have no intention of arguing with them by marshalling many reasons to prove that there is a God in the universe. For one thing, the Bible, as we said earlier, never deals with this question, but rather speaks of the Lord Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and so forth. This alone indicates that the question of whether God exists need not be mentioned in its pages because it is a fact accepted by all concerned. The existence of God is an unshakable fact that has no need to be discussed.

old comment by An Apostle for the Church

How Dare You Say There Is No God?

Suppose an atheistic friend comes to talk about this matter of God. He will no doubt say there is no Supreme Being. You may ask him why and he may perhaps give you a reason or two. But whenever I am confronted with such a situation, I will usually not permit him to go on. I will frankly ask him: “Who are you who dare to say there is no God?” He may still want to continue with his argument but I will stop him by reiterating the same question, for in such a conversation I wish to settle at the outset the credentials of the speaker. Yet I need to ask him this: According to your own estimate, do you honestly believe you have the qualifications to decide whether God is? Or may I put it even more bluntly: “Who do you think you are that you dare to say there is no God? What makes you so qualified to assert such a statement? Are there not four billion people like you in the world? What then makes you an authority on this question? Why, you do not even know about the things with which you have contact every day! Do you know, for example, how your fingernails grow? Or how your heart beats? Do you know whether there will be rain tomorrow or whether you will eat your meal again the next day? You have no real knowledge of these things. How then dare you say there is no God?

“Let me further ask you this: Do you know how big the earth is? But perhaps you are one of those who do not consider the earth as of much consequence. Alright, do you know how big our solar system is? Probably you will regard this as not very large either. Then let me ask you this: Have you the ability to bring the sun down that you may examine to see how big it is? Were it possible to excavate the sun and empty it of its contents, how many earths would you be able to stuff into the sun? Actually, hundreds, thousands, even tens of thousands of earths could be put into it and there would still be space left to be filled. For the sun can contain a million and a half planets like our earth with much room left to spare! And yet, as one astronomer has said, there are five billion other stars that are as large as the sun of our solar system. So how big really are you, that you dare to claim there is no God?”

Those who say there is no God ought to consider the following: Astronomers tell us that the speed of light is 186,000 miles per second! It is rather difficult for us to comprehend such speed. Yet though light travels so fast, astronomers tell us that the light from some stars has traveled for two thousand years and has still not reached the earth. For a person For a person who is only six feet tall and who occupies less than a foot of ground to say there is no God is not only absurd but most ridiculous.

Who Rules the Universe?

Though the universe is so immense, there are things within it so small that even a microscope cannot detect them. And however microscopic they are, each of them has its definite organization, definite law, and definite order. How wonderful they are! Formerly people considered the atom as the smallest unit. Later the scientist discovered electrons. Now they have found other particles even smaller than electrons. Yet no matter how tiny they are, they all follow definite principles, laws and order. If there is no God, how did their so intricate design come about? How could they have been made so precisely and accurately? There must be a God who designs and rules, otherwise such beautiful phenomena of nature could never have happened. Only two alternative explanations are possible. These things either came about by accident or they came about by design. If not by accident, they must have come into existence through One who designs them. And if not by design, then they must have arisen by accident. Which is the right answer?

old comment by An Apostle for the Church

Is It by Accident?

To say that there is no designer to the universe and that all things were accomplished by accident is really asking too much of our imagination! Some people have suggested that things simply happened through their contact with one another, resulting in the universe as we know it. This theory I can hardly accept as plausible. I have never observed anything in the world that has resulted from such chance.

Let me tell you a true story. Once a certain person went to visit the chief executive officer of a factory which produced a meat-grinding machine. This small machine can be seen in most butcher shops in Shanghai. During their conversation together their talk turned to the subject of the origin of the universe. At one point the chief executive remarked that in the universe there must be a God who was all wise and all mighty to have designed and built all things. But the visitor sharply disagreed, declaring that there was no God in the universe and that everything came about by accident. Instead of arguing, the executive invited his friend to observe how his employees built their meat grinders. “Please note,” the factory chief said, “that our small meat grinder is made of eight different pieces. Now since you say that the universe has resulted merely from chance contact, would you please put these eight pieces and the appropriate screws into a wooden box and shake them up to see if by such an event it will result in a meat grinder?” He knew, of course, that no matter how the visitor might shake them, such accidental contact would never produce a machine. The officer continued by saying, “We have hundreds of workers in our factory. The most capable of them can make 200 machines a day. Yet even if we were to go to the countryside to find and hire a dull woman who has never in her life seen such machines, we could teach her to put one together in a very few days. But you may shake and shake this box of parts for a month or for a year and still not be successful. It is simply impossible. Now if a small machine that is worth only a little over three dollars and seventy cents cannot be produced by accident, how could such an immense universe have been made merely by chance contact? Is it at all rational to believe that all the objects found in our universe came about by accident? The chairs which we were sitting on a moment ago were made by a carpenter, who put it together in half an hour. But had this been left to chance contact, there would never have been any chair for us to sit on today!”

I believe this story points up the fact that the universe, with such obvious order, symmetry and law, must have been designed by a Designer. Even the dullest, most ignorant person in the world must acknowledge this. And therefore, a person who is not a fool will believe in God. There is absolutely no valid reason for not believing in God.

old comment by An Apostle for the Church

Basic Math Proves God

There are approximately 10^80 atoms in the cosmos. Assuming 10^12 interatomic interactions per second per atom, and 10^18 seconds (30 billion years) as twice the evolutionists' age of the universe, we get 10^110 (80 +12+18) as the total number of possible interatomic interactions in 30 billion years.

If each interatomic interaction produced a unique molecule, then no more than 10^110 unique molecules could have ever existed in the universe. About 1,000 protein molecules composed of amino acids are needed for the most primitive form of life. To find a proper sequence of 200 amino acids for a relatively short protein molecule has been calculated to require "about 10^130 trials. This is a hundred billion billion times the total number of molecules ever to exist in the history of the cosmos! No random process could ever result in even one such protein structure, much less the full set of roughly 1000 needed in the simplest form of life.

"It is therefore sheer irrationality...to believe that random chemical interactions could ever [form] a viable set of functional proteins out of the truly staggering number of candidate possibilities. In the face of such stunningly unfavourable odds, how could any scientist with any sense of honesty appeal to chance interactions as the explanation for the complexity we see in living systems? To do so with conscious awareness of these numbers, in my opinion, represents a serious breach of scientific integrity" (John R. Baumgardener, Theoretical Division of Los Alamos National Laboratory. See In Six Days, pp. 224-25).

Remember, the simplest physical structure upon which natural selection might operate must happen by chance--and it can't.

When anyone says that an eye, for example, couldn't happen by chance, Dawkins responds in an offended tone, "Well, of course an eye couldn't happen by chance! Natural selection is the very opposite of chance!" But Dawkins doesn't mention that natural selection is impossible without some living thing that can replicate itself.

old comment by Christopher

My apologies Troy. I didn't realise you suffered from Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. I know now you can't help spamming these boards. In case you haven't heard of it before here's the definition, & symptoms. I write this in all sincerity troy. Get help. Your behaviour isn't normal.

Obsessive Compulsive Disorder
'People with obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD) have persistent, upsetting thoughts (obsessions) and use rituals (compulsions) to control the anxiety these thoughts produce. Most of the time, the rituals end up controlling them.'

[For example, in your case your obsessive need to spam the FSTDT board.] Performing such rituals is not pleasurable. At best, it produces temporary relief from the anxiety created by obsessive thoughts.

People with OCD may also be preoccupied with order and symmetry, have difficulty throwing things out (so they accumulate), or hoard unneeded items.

Although most adults with OCD recognize that what they are doing is senseless, some adults and most children may not realize that their behavior is out of the ordinary. [I think you fit this description Troy].

The course of the disease is quite varied. Symptoms may come and go, ease over time, or get worse. If OCD becomes severe, it can keep a person from working or carrying out normal responsibilities at home. People with OCD may try to help themselves by avoiding situations that trigger their obsessions, or they may use alcohol or drugs to calm themselves.

Please get help Troy. As for me I won't help you indulge your OCD. I am NOT saying that what you are doing is wrong - merely unhealthy. Seek help from an accredited psychologist.

bye

old comment by An Apostle for the Church

The Witness of Conscience

What we have discussed here are merely external approaches to presenting evidence of the fact that God is. We would next like to look at the subject from another angle. Can we, judging from human psychology, say there is a God? Recently, the National Geographical Society of the United States sent people to many countries to study human society and geography, and the results of their investigation were then published. What the study learned was that throughout every societywhether civilized or barbarous, whether progressive or regressivethere was one trait which was common to all: they all believed that God exists. Truly, whoever they may beeven if the most uncivilized tribes peoplethey know that there is a God. A person can be so dull as not to be able to think or reason, yet his heart will tell him that there is a God. So many others, though, talk in opposition to their conscience.

A remarkable incident occurred in South America in 1925. One day a missionary passed by a forest and suddenly heard a cry for help. He rushed towards the sound of the voice and came to the side of a river. He saw a man in a canoe being swept downstream. The current was swift, and not far away the missionary could see a waterfall. If not rescued, this man would certainly be overwhelmed by the waterfall. At that critical moment, the man in the canoe cried with all his strength, “Oh God, oh God, save me! Save me!” The missionary quickly sized up the situation and was able to rescue the man.

On the very next day, the missionary was again passing through this forest. But this time he saw hundreds of people gathered by the riverside listening to a lecture. He went forward to learn what it was all about. There a man was speaking publicly on the subject of God. In his lecture he marshalled numerous arguments to prove the non-existence of God. After he finished speaking, he challenged the audience by saying: “I have given you many reasons; if anyone believes otherwise and wishes to argue, he may do so.” The missionary stepped onto the platform and spoke: “I do not know how to argue, nor am I going to give you reasons; instead, I will tell you all a true story. Yesterday when I passed through the forest I heard a man crying for help, and he was repeatedly heard to cry out: “Oh God, oh God, save me, save me!” I ran toward the sound and found a man sitting in a canoe, drifting rapidly towards the waterfall yonder. His life was in terrible danger! I instantly rescued him and then sent him home. Let me today introduce to you that man. The one who yesterday cried desperately, “Oh God, save me!”, is the very person who today has been presenting to you many so-called reasons for proving that there is no God. Whether what I have said is true or not, you may ask him.”

Truly, the conscience of many people is such that before it is awakened they can raise many arguments against the existence of God. But when they are dying or are in a very strait situation, they will then contemplate future consequences and thus their conscience will tell them that God is. Today may quickly pass away. Today may seem so unimportant because you are still young. But the day that you find yourself heading for eternity, your conscience will wake up and speak. I often say, conscience may slumber but it never dies. When the time arrives, it will utter its voice. Nevertheless, it may already be too late.

In England there once was a father and a son who were ardent atheists. But the day the father was dying, he turned about on his bed showing intense restlessness. The son noticed the situation. Fearing lest his father’s atheistic faith be shaken, he tried to encourage his father with these words, “Father, hold on!” With tears on his face, his father cried out: “Hold on to what?” Since neither of them had God, what could they possibly hold on to? But we thank God, we do have Someone to hold on to. We know whom we have believed.

Will you who have heard this please listen to your inner voice? How frequently our mind is affected by outside influences and conceives erroneous thoughts, but the innermost voice is trustworthy, for it presents the real self.

I have researched and concluded that there is no born atheist. He is instead created by his environment. Our conscience is therefore exceedingly precious. And hence it is good to follow it closely.

old comment by An Apostle for the Church

How We Can Meet God

If, then, there is a God, what must we therefore do? For it is not enough merely to believe that there is a God. We need to read Amos 4.14, which commands us all to do this: “Prepare to meet thy God.” Let me ask, Are you prepared to meet God? Since you know there is a God, how can you be negligent about Him? Are you currently able to meet God? I hope none among us will be confused by the false assumption of the atheist. The first thing you must do is prepare to meet your God.

Yet how can we meet God? There is but one waythrough believing in the Lord Jesus. Why is this so? Because God shows grace in Christ. Outside of Christ, we are all condemned.

“And might reconcile them both in one body unto God through the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: and he [the Lord Jesus] came and preached peace to you that were far off [the gentiles], and peace to them that were nigh [the Jews]: for through him [Christ] we both have our access in one Spirit unto the Father” (Eph. 2.16-18). Please notice also this passage: “In whom [Christ Jesus the Lord] we have boldness and access in confidence through faith in him” (Eph. 3.12). How can we meet God? The Bible tells us that we have boldness to approach God through believing in Christ Jesus.

One very important thing which keeps us from meeting God is our sin. Sin hinders us from seeing God’s face; sin makes it impossible for us to meet Him. But God has prepared for us a way to resolve the problem of sin, and that is, that the Lord Jesus has borne our sins on the cross for us. He died for our sins. He was scourged and judged in our stead. Jesus was crucified because of you and me. On the ground of the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus, all who believe in Him can meet God with boldness because “the middle wall of partition” (Eph. 2.14) has already been broken down and the problem of sin has thus been solved. So that we can now meet God without any fear. I must tell you that one day every one of you must meet God. And you may either be accepted as one of God’s people or be rejected as one of His enemies. What you need to do is to accept the Savior. Do not be an atheist but become a Christian. I beseech you to believe in the Lord Jesus and accept Him as your personal Savior.

Remember that one day you shall have to meet God: there is just no way to escape His face other than to hide in the Lord. If you do not hide in Christ today, it will be too late to try to hide when you shall meet God one day. All therefore who are willing to accept the Lord should do so now without delay.

Perhaps some may not quite understand how the blood of Christ can lead us to God. Our own conscience is a good way to explain it. Let us assume that in a judicial case, sin is presented before the court. A witness, even the precious conscience in our heart, steps forward to bear witness to the fact that we have sinned. Now many dare not think of God because of their evil conscience. They are afraid of God, and hence they do not want to have anything to do with Him. Yet we need not be afraid since we have the Lord Jesus as Mediator.

The Lord Jesus left the beautiful and glorious heaven to come down here in order to bring us there. He suffered on earth that we might have peace with heaven. He died that we might have lifeand was rejected that we might be accepted. We may now lay down our load of sins because the Lord Jesus has already been judged for us. We may approach God through faith in Him. How terrible a thing it is for anyone not to believe that Christ has already borne all his sins on the cross. May all of us open our hearts to accept the Lord Jesus. For in so believing, God shall be to us no longer a judge but instead a beloved Father.

old comment by An Apostle for the Church

Forgiveness and Confession

To forgive is God’s heart desire. He loves men and delights in forgiving their sins. Ever since man fell, God has provided ways to atone for sins.

In the Old Testament time, God used bullocks and sheep to atone for men’s sins. In the New Testament period, He appoints the Lord Jesusthe Lamb of Godas the sin-offering, who then offered himself once for all to obtain eternal redemption for men. In God’s view, the shed blood of the Lord Jesus on the cross has completely solved the sin problem of the world. But from humanity’s standpoint man still needs to add one ingredientfaith. Whoever believes that the blood of the Lord Jesus was shed for his sins, that one is redeemed and the person’s trespasses are forgiven. Anyone who disbelieves will perish and go to hell. But so far as atonement is concerned, the work is already done. It is of God, originated by God, and is what God wants to do. He does it by sacrificing His only begotten Son, a tremendous price that God has paid. Hence, there is absolutely no question that God wants to forgive sins and to provide for men the means of atonement. Are there any sinners who are still afraid that their sins cannot be forgiven? God wants to forgive such people. He delights in forgiving them, and He has already paid a great price to forgive them.

God Is Able to Forgive All Sins

Whenever a sinner believes that the Lord Jesus shed His blood on the cross for his sins, that person’s sins shall be forgiven at that very moment. If a believer is overtaken in any trespass and sins, he will be forgiven if he honestly repents and confesses his sin before God (1 John 1.9). For the blood price the Lord Jesus has paid is great enough to forgive all sins and to cleanse all unrighteousness. So the way of forgiveness is open to saints as well as sinners.

God Forgives Forever

On one occasion the Lord Jesus said to Peter that he must forgive seventy times seven, which means he must keep on forgiving and forever forgiving as long as his brother is willing to repent. Since the blessed Lord taught Peter such gracious words, would He not himself put His own words into practice? Surely God will forgive all who are sorry for their sins and who truly repent. He will forgive them forever.

old comment by An Apostle for the Church

God’s Heart to Forgive Surpasses Our Heart for Forgiveness

What the father in Luke 15 did to the prodigal son enables us to know the forgiving heart of our heavenly Father toward sinners. While the prodigal son was yet on the way home, his father saw him afar off and ran to meet him. The old man did not stroll slowly; he ran. His heart was so eager after his son that walking was too slow for him. His legs had to move quickly. Today God’s legs of forgiveness also run after every repentant sinner. How He longs to forgive man’s sins as rapidly as possible. Did the prodigal run towards his father? No, he did not. Judging from the movements of them both, we can readily see that the father’s heart of forgiving surpasses the son’s heart for forgiveness. If we continue observing how the father fell on his neck and kissed him repeatedly, we shall understand what pleasure God the Father himself takes in a repentant sinner. Though the son hated what he had done and felt guilty towards heaven and his father, and continued confessing his sins to the father, the latter, out of intense love for his son, was impatient to allow his son to finish his confession, and therefore commanded instead that the servants fetch the best robe and put a ring and shoes on the prodigal son (please note that there were less words of confession recorded in verse 21 than in verses 18 and 19 because the father broke in).

How precious to know that our heavenly Father’s love to forgive exceeds our heart for forgiveness. He does not wait for us to cry three days and three nights, confessing over and over again before He will forgive. Frequently we cry and cry, confess and confess, beat ourselves black and bluein order to be forgiven. How we misconstrue God’s heart, and in actuality we wound His heart. Let us realize that He loves those whom He has bought with a price far more than we could ever love ourselves. How He longs to forgive us, indeed He “runs” to forgive us. And before we can even finish our confession, He has already forgiven us!
How often when your loved one in the family sins against you, you are anxious to forgive. You will immediately forgive him if he is willing merely to apologize. Truly, where there is love, there is the forgiving heart. If this is factual among men, how much more this is the case with the heavenly Father, who is full of mercy and compassion to eternally and completely forgive the sins of men.

old comment by An Apostle for the Church

Quantum mechanics doesn't agree with you because nothing in quantum mechanics teachings something happens all by itself. You are trying to violate the laws of nature to reject God for salvation and His use of quantum mechanics so you end up in Hell. God gives you this choice. I pray you don't kill yourself, but give your life to Christ, then you will know true peace, joy and happiness-these are fruits of the Holy Spirit. Only then will you know, and ultimately that is what you want isn't it, to know what true love is? There is no greater act of love than God entering into His creation to die on the cross for your sins to save you from your self.

old comment by Professor M

Ah, more Troy...let's see if we can streamline our approach to "4SPFG" again here:

1) "Exponential progression of consciousness" is a vaguely-defined phenomenon which is not demonstrated to exist, thus making it an unjustified premise. "None can compare to Christ" also presumes the conclusion.

2) First two statements are contradictory: if nothing can be without a cause, then an uncreated creator also cannot be without a cause. Also a terrible abstraction of causality; plurality of causes can be observed even under ordinary causality which, without absolutely universal observation, can't be extended to all possible states of existence.

3) Not relevant; I'm only talking about the "4SPFG" here.

4) Morbo's fallacy: "Exponential curves do not work that way!" Such a curve has also not been demonstrated to exist as a feature of a phenomenon which you have asserted but also not proven.

As for the appropriately-named "Minimal Facts" approach:

1) Argumentum ad populum. Also just not true.

2) We could call this one "????".

3) More of the same -- and people do go willingly to their deaths for the sake of mistaken beliefs. (Specifically: we have seen people die willingly for different, mutually contradictory religious beliefs. Some or all of these people, then, must have died for mistaken beliefs.) Note that your argument also presumes the resurrection which is part of the phenomenon you are attempting to prove (and excludes other reasons that one might believe or claim that they had, in fact, seen their teacher in resurrected form).

4) The first problem is in your first conditional clause -- there are plenty of naturalistic and materialistic means possible for a religious experience of the sort. Anywhere from group hallucinations to peer pressure to fabrication. Even if this clause were accepted, though, your conclusions don't follow from it.

old comment by An Apostle for the Church

1) The exponential progression of conscience is not vague at all. For example, child sacrifices are outlawed now when before they were quite common among the nations. Women can vote now this past century as well. There is a long list of examples, especially on a per capita basis.

With regard to Christ, none can compare to Him for each time you make a comparison to some religion or world-view...they all inevitibly fail and can't stand up to Christ. I encourage you to put this to the test and make a comparison.

2) All known possible states of existence that we are aware of only ever show us causes. That there are many different causes still indicates that to an effect it was still preceded by a cause even though the cause is different in different situations. In nature, therefore, nothing is without a cause, so the ultimate cause must be uncaused Whom is God of the Bible, since none can compare to Christ.

3) Step 3 is relevant because so many times people misread the proof of God (and His nature) as you did, so I gave the answers to your mistaken assumptions and misunderstanding. You would be arguing against apples, when we are talking about oranges.

4) Curves do work according to an exponential progression which we observe in conscience, so Step 4 stands: if there is an eternity of the past of cause and effects in the supernatural (Step 1 addressed the natural), then you would not still be sinning by now due the exponential progression of conscience. Sorry, never heard of Mr. Morbo. I don't know what relevance he has as you didn't show it.

Regarding the Minimal Facts Approach is not an argument from popularity. Rather it finding common ground among skeptics and taking what they believe to prove Jesus is God. They believe Paul was being genuine in Gal. 1 & 2, 1 Cor. 15 which leads to the proof Jesus is God.

It is not that people die for truths or untruths, but when they do go to their deaths they truly believe in what they are dying for, which is why most skeptics doubt Paul was being disigenuous when he said hew saw Jesus bodily and met with the Apostles who also said they saw Jesus resurrected bodily, could touch Him, talk with Him, eat with Him and walk with Him.

Since skeptics, including yourself, can not propose with any evidence a contrary perspective, you are unwittingly admitting Jesus is God. You're only problem then is Hell, because you don't want to repent to the cross to be forgiven by God for your sins. You like your immorality and sin nature too much to give it up for Christ.

Hallucinations don't work because hallucinations don't exist in group settings. They are individually based. This is according to modern psychology.

So the burden of the proof does remain on you.

If you need evidence something has a cause, just drop a ball and ask why that happened? Because you opened your hand. Why did you open your hand? Because you wanted to prove the ball would drop. Why did you want to prove the ball would drop? Because you wanted to know if something could happen without a cause. You can continue to produce this experiment over and over in nature in different examples to come to the absolute certain conclusion nothing in nature happens all by itself. Since you have no evidence for something happening all by itself like magic, then realize you are living a lie in rejecting the uncreated Creator and the love of the Father to agree to allow the Son to atone for your sins and give eternal life.

My sincerest prayers go out to you to come to the cross as a helpless sinner to receive the Lord Jesus as Savior.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3.16,18).

Just these two verses is all you need in the Bible for eternal life. Actually, you could probably just use verse 16 or 18 alone and that would be enough too.

old comment by Professor M

Since you can't disprove the examples, evidences and valid arguments given for the exponential progression of conscience,

One cannot disprove assertions which are not made. You have offered no definition of "exponential progression of conscience (sic)", only a few examples of events which you insist are part of a larger phenomenon. You've also failed to give any evidence that such a series of events is best modeled by an exponential curve -- any math to back it up, or just the assertion?

Until you offer something more than word salad, you haven't even made a disprovable claim.

Oh, and your "non-Christian cosmologists" link isn't even a link to the video you refer to; it's a link to a site in a forum with a further link to a site with a number of (obnoxiously fact-free) videos.

old comment by Reverend David

You should be ashamed to call yourself a christian.
FSTDT, my name denotes that I am indeed a Reverend, and christianity is all about peace and tolerance although despicable deeds have been commited in its name.
Fundamentalism, especially aggressive fundamentalism, is a scourge of any religion.
I can well understand your lack of belief, I respect it absolutely. We are after all people and not ants.
What I abhor most of all is the bias, bigotry and ignorance that is so openly displayed by many of the posts the fundamentalist sites publish, apparently with the "blessing" of thier moderators.
Some of your responses are (to me) offensive, but in the main historically and scientifically accurate.
If sites such as RR (amongst others) complain, they have only to look in the mirror for the guilty party.

old comment by An Apostle for the Church

Assertions are made as derived by evidence, which you are unable to disprove. That's your big problem. An exponential progression of conscience is already labelled as being exponential in improvement of our conscience, and various conclusive examples are given that substantiate it which you could not show otherwise or overturn in any way whatsoever. Mathematical models are not needed, for if they were then nobody could be saved except those who understood those models. How silly. God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10.34). Until you realize this, you're just being evasive. The link to the page I gave you has on the right side the Creation link which you can go and click on the "Big bang", or here,
http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4882#post4882.
You could not disprove this evidence.

I don't know what fundamentalism is in your view, you'll have to define it for me, because it means different things to different people. I can only respond to your definition of it, when you give it to me.

Reverand David, I know you are not a Christian, for you have such hostility against the body of Christ and you accuse but you can't back up your accusations or prove them. As the Bible says, we shall know them by their fruit.

old comment by An Apostle for the Church

Don't you love how the truth sets you free? Can you feel it? To have all your sins forgiven is awesome. To have power over sin and self and putting to nought the deeds of the flesh having died on the cross with Christ is doubly awesome. To be raised with Jesus with His life now in the spirit in heavenly places and have His Spirit indwelling my spirit, is even more awesome. To have His eternal blessing and promise I will be resurrected with the saved at the last day is even more awesome! To spend an eternity in the new city and new earth with all the children of God, and God and the Lamb at the center, is even more awesome. To know nobody knows the things God has planed for those who love Him is even more awesome! It's so awesome, I only wish you could have the same. This feeling of knowing far surpasses any human relationship or pleasurable gain in this world. I only wish I could explain it to you better and express myself better. Perhaps no words are adequate enough. You can call this process, or part of the process, Biblical Psychology, the Redemptive Design, the Religion of Christianity, the Work of God, His Divine Plan, the Mystery Age of the Church, Eternal Life, Resurrection Life, Overcoming, God's Word, the Bible. It's so cool! FACT: this is not just the best world/religious view, but it is as the Creator intended to show us how to live and how to die. You have a choice. You can die in 50 or 60 years physically (or sooner as atheism is unhealthy for your spirit, soul and body), or if you like, you can die today with Christ on the cross. If you die with the Redeemer, you get eternal life. If you die without Him in your life, you get to go to Hell with no pleading; and you will always remember how I tried to get you saved. That eternal regret that you will experience in hell is unfathomable. Every day of your life your conscience will eat away at you that you couldn't even abide in your own conscience telling you to believe in Jesus. That's very sad.

old comment by An Apostle for the Church

Na, you're just shutting mind down and think all Christians are bad representatives of Christ. You can't even address some common ground on anything because ultimately you want to go to hell. You can't even admit nothing in nature happens all by itself, thus the universe can't cause itself. All cosmologists admit there must be a Creator because of the intricate and calculated several major steps observed from the big bang moment to 380,000 years view of the radiation background using the W-Map method. Most scholars at least agree Paul was being genuine in Gal. 1 & 2, 1 Cor. 15. You got lots of problems with your approach of belligerency and obstinacy.

old comment by An Apostle for the Church

You can use many other evidences, but they are not necessary, because we are only using what is agreed upon as common ground by almost all skeptical scholars and building the case from there.

If all skeptical scholars believe something, then if we can prove God and Jesus is God by that common ground, then you are admitting Jesus is God even though you are going to Hell. You prefer to be selfish and not come to the cross as a helpless sinner.

There is no reason for you to believe in Nohochacyum (nor do most scholars believe in this), but if all skeptical scholars believe Paul really wrote Gal. 1 & 2 and 1 Cor. 15, then obviously there is some reason. This is called "enemy attestation". The very enemies of Christ are admitting Jesus is God. Most mathematicians believe 1+1=2. Your argument is so silly it is akin to arguing well just because all mathematicians believe 1+1=2 doesn't mean it is. But they have a proof, just like Christians have a proof of His resurrection. You can't overturn the mathemeticians, just like you can't overturn the Christians. So you can only be belligerent, by saying everyone is wrong about everything, but that's just goofy.

The main reason why most scholars believe Paul was being genuine and truly wrote Gal. 1 & 2 and 1 Cor. 15 was because of the many letters he wrote at least something of what was written has to be Paul and what Paul truly believed. Gal. 1 & 2, 1 Cor. 15 are the earliest known writings of the New Testament. His travels were extensive. Too many people came in contact with him as he set up all the many churches. There is too much corroboration. He even said in 1 Cor. 15, you check back with the many people who are still alive today who claimed they saw Jesus resurrected. Why was Paul going around and doing this? For it was building up the Church, the Church founded in the resurrected Christ whom he said he saw and met with the Apostles John, Peter and James and others who said the same.

People don't go to their deaths as martyrs believing in something they know is a lie. They truly, therefore, believed it. Now just because they believe something doesn't mean it is true, but if it can't be explained away reasonably then it is probably true they saw, touched, talked with, ate with and walked with the risen Lord. Because group hallucinations in modern psychology don't exist, hallucinations can't account for their eyewitness accounts in various group settings over 40 days of His resurrection.

I am not sure how you are going to overturn this because nobody in human history has been able to.

Much thanks goes to Gary R. Habermas for focusing in on the ultimate proof Jesus is God.

The reason this is so significant is because you can't really talk to an atheist about anything, because they won't give up any common ground. Disingenuously they will argue against everything, but the one thing they do agree on is that Paul was being genuine and really wrote Gal. 1 & 2 and 1 Cor. 15.

No discussion of the inerrancy of the Bible is required, just seeing if one can build a case on the common ground both Christians and atheists share. Let me add this one additional point. Now that you are aware of this fact, if you still refuse salvation through Christ, your Hell will be much worse than that of another atheist that was not aware of this fact. What has been given to you freely, greater responsibility is now bestowed upon you to do the right thing.

Praise the Lord!

old comment by Kandel

I know what sinlessness means. I just said it's not a word. XD

And I respect that you're dedicated to your cause, AAftC. And religion, for that matter. You're lucky that you respect the religion you were born into - assuming I'm not taking leaps in thinking you were born into it, because some people aren't. (And thanks, I didn't see the summary...)

However, I don't agree with the proof. I think, especially since it states that the sole goal is to prove the God of the Bible, it can still hint to another deity. Or it might not. Depends on your perception.

In summary, I wouldn't bother trying to convince others to believe in what I believe in, because a) I won't change their minds, b) it's for them to decide what they think, and c) slow, lazy people like me will only read a summary.

old comment by An Apostle for the Church

I don't use Facebook.

Bottom line is you could not find anything wrong with the proof for God. That is your testimony to the glory of God. Amen.

I was not born into Christianity. Nobody in my family or immediate relatives believe Jesus is God.

Nobody is born with faith in Christ. We are all born sinners.

I don't know what AAftC means.

Sinlessness is a word. Get a dictionary. Lots of people use this word.

The proof does not say the goal is to prove God, but rather to just let the evidence take us where it leads us. Where does it lead us? It leads us to the fact there has to be an uncreated Creator, and by comparison, none can compare to Christ to know Jesus is God and all other religions are false.

Just because it is for other people to decide, doesn't mean you don't speak the truth to them. If nobody's mind is ever changed then nobody would ever get saved, so you are wrong in your thoughts again. Even slow, lazy people like you who only read a summary still have to ask themselves, since you can't disprove the summary, then in fact, you are admitting Jesus is God.

Praise the Lord!

old comment by Kandel

AAftC is...the abbreviation for the name you're using...

I can disprove the summary. But we've established that I'm lazy, and therefore do not care to. Because disproving it would require reading the whole thing. And it's a lot easier to write a proof to prove something that disprove it, unless you're proving it by disproving the opposite.

You win with the sinlessness thing. And that proves Microsoft Word is stupid something I already knew due to some wrongly applied grammar rules, but I prefer to trust the thing that my Language Arts grade hinges on.

Oh, and please don't tell me I'm wrong in my thoughts. Some people change their minds, and a large number change away from Christianity, too. Myself included. But many don't. It's still not for anyone to say.

old comment by An Apostle for the Church

Kandel,

I don't think your laziness is really the cause of your unsalvation. The reason for your unsalvation is because you shut your mind down willingly so your sin nature can grow. The proof is simple so that anyone could understand it, therefore, you are without excuse.

"And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart" (Jer. 29.13). If you don't search God with all your heart, that explains why you haven't found Him yet. "For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, 'even' his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse" (Rom 1.20). When you atheists are turned into the Bible, natural selection will have fulfilled its purpose and then, you will be resurrected for Hell.

We know there could not have been an eternity of the past of cause and effects due to the exponential progression of conscience we observe, so you would not still be sinning by now.

The universe can't just happen all by itself, because nothing in nature is without a cause.

We are left with only one option. The uncreated Created.

Sinlessness is used in many dictionaries and where you go to school. Accept it.

Whether people change their minds or not, that doesn't change the fact that you are wrong, for you still can't find fault with what God provides as the proof of Him and the multiple attestation of His resurrection to prove Jesus is God. You should note most skeptical scholars agree Paul was being honest when he said he met with the apostles and they all said they saw Jesus resurrected.

I don't know anyone who was ever a Christian who turned away from Christianity, because faith in Christ is defined in the Bible as once-saved-always-saved. Whatever you thought you were you were never a Christian according to God's loving Word. You still have yet to come to the faith of salvation through Christ. This is how Christians know you are being dishonest because you define Christianity as something that Christianity is clearly not as revealed in His Word.

My prayers go out to you to receive the risen Lord who died on the cross for your sins to give you eternal life.

old comment by A Light for Kandel

Kandel,

What makes you think I am hostile or freaking out? I don't feel hostile or freaking out. Did you misread something?

You haven't mentioned anything you disagree with Christianity about. How about opening up. Christians are an open book for the Lord.

Christians don't deny evolution. Maybe that's something else you got wrong. Rather, Christians say evolution does not explain how the first single-celled organism came into being, therefore, it is limited in its scope in determining bigger issues in life.

So you believe in a creator, but you are the only one who knows about him because you make him in the image of you right?

If the God of the Bible isn't the only possibility, how can there be more than one uncreated Creator? That doesn't make sense at all. And since all religions contradict each other, how can they agree? You have this puzzle to solve if your theory is right.

I think the challenge you have presented before you is that since the uncreated Creator must exist and most skeptical scholars agree Paul was being genuine in Gal. 1 & 1, 1 Cor. 15, therefore, you need to find a legitimate explanation for him and the apostles John, Peter and James agreeing and seeing Jesus resurrected in various group settings. I know that modern psychology says hallucinations don't exist in group settings because they are individually experience in the mind's imaginations and differ from person to person.

If you can't explain away their seeing Jesus resurrected, then you should give your life to Christ so you can be saved and not go to Hell. Jesus said this is verily how He would prove to you He is God and there is no other name under heaven by which one can be saved.

old comment by Kandel

Haha, I like the name you just used. Because "Kandel" is a spelling of "Candle" I created. So you're A Light for Candle. Lmao! Teh irony it burnz.

And I dunno, you just seemed like you were getting kinda short with me. And just now, you called me vain by accusing me of picturing God in my image. It's not coming from my imagination. My religion is organized, though loosely, and there are a lot of solitary practitioners.

I never said there was more than one Creator, only that there's more than one possibility. Maybe the Jewish are right. Maybe you're right. Maybe the Scientologists-- Oh, I mean, maybe the Muslims are right. As far as explaining away that thing you mentioned, I don't know. It may or may not be explained. I don't plan to look into it. I believe in a lot of possibilities, but I don't believe in PROOF. If there's a God and/or Goddess, why should they prove to us their existence in one form or another? Scientists say fossils prove evolution. Maybe something put them there. I don't care what proof you offer.

I know one thing: I won't crawl back to the church and beg "forgivenesss."

Alright. I disagree with God being solely male, and males being the better gender as appears in the Bible. I disagree with the Bible saying that love is the greatest thing, yet spitting on homosexuality. I disagree with the fact that you only exist on Earth once and then you die, because it doesn't FEEL that way. I am much too in love with this world to leave. I disagree with the people some deity deems "bad" being screwed over for eternity while the "good" ones walk a street of gold, because this world is filled with shades of grey. I do believe in karma. I disagree with shoving your religion down others' throats and telling them they'll go to hell if they don't repent.

There's more to it, but that's all I care to mention now.

old comment by Kandel Burned Out Long Ago

Kandel,

You say there are others who believe in your god but it is a religion of no name. You sound quite coy and making God after your own image in being short with me. You said your faith is loose. Sounds vague. I guess this gives you the right do whatever you want and lower your conscience as far as you like, not that it is not already near the bottom of the pit.

Why not just let the evidence lead you. Muslims, six centuries later, say Jesus didn't die on the cross to reject His atonement for sins. Yet, they have nothing to support their claim. Therefore, Islam is not a possibility. A religion founded on assumptions is false.

Scientologists say we were created by evil aliens, but they have no evidence for that. L. Ron Hubbard novels don't count. Therefore, scientology is not a possibility. A religion founded on assumptions is false.

The Jews rejected their own Messiah Jesus Christ whom statistically speaking it is impossible for Him not to be God given all the prophecies He fulfilled which were written down centuries before. The Old Testament even predicted the Jews would reject their own Messiah. So Judaism is not a possibility. A religion that contradicts itself is false.

How can such things be right if they have no proof whatsoever? Thus, we show these views can't back up their beliefs. Whereas Christianity is proven by the Minimal Facts Approach which you agree with.

Why does God prove Himself? Obviously, so you are without excuse when you go to Hell.

Science proves evolution, just as science proves the uncreated Creator and that Jesus is God. What we observe in nature proves Him. Who put the fossil records there? God did it through the process over 13.7 billion years.

I think you said it best, you just don't care, and that is why there is a Hell for folks such as yourself. I am sure you will fit in well there.

You don't need forgiveness from the Church, for you were never born-again. You need forgiveness from the Church when after being born-again if you end up backsliding. What you need is God's forgiveness to enter into the Church-body of Christ, so you can be saved, otherwise you are going to Hell.

The Bible doesn't say God is solely male, only that He revealed Himself through Jesus Christ in the body of a man. Neither does the Bible say men are better, for God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10.34). Do you ever get embarrassed misreading the Bible? God is spirit, whereas men are men and women are women.

Homosexuality is not love, but a perversion. Since God is love how can you ask God to love effeminate perversion of male orifices?

Your feelings have no basis to believe you will come back as a chicken. Feelings can be deceived.

God allows you to be in love with the world and remain selfish, for He gives you the choice, and that is why Hell exists.

Even though there are shades of grey, there is still the point of grey where you are on the wrong side which leads you to Hell. God gives you the choice to go to Hell to be on the bad side of grey. If nothing else, know it is your choice for eternity to be separated from God for forever.

Karma is silly. It says if you were a rapist, you will come back in your next life to be raped by rapists. That's an immoral god you worship, just like you.

Telling you that you are going to Hell without proving it is shoving it down your throat. Whereas I prove to you why you are going to Hell, and you seem to agree, since you can't disprove the proof for Jesus being God.

That's all there is really to it. It's your choice. God won't force you. You have free-will.

Hell is vaste and the road to Hell is wide, but the gate to heaven is narrow.

There are no postcards in Hell. Once you arrive there, there will be no way for you to contact any saved soul and no saved soul will ever be able to contact you. It is sealed for forever! Just think of it like being locked up in jail with opportunity for parole. You are locked away from society for all time.

Would you like to be best buddies with Satan when you get to Hell? All your life you rejected Jesus Christ and called Him a liar, so you can have eternity in realizing the consequence of your wrong choice. As Jesus said if you are not for Him, then you're against Him. Since Jesus said the only way to the Father is through Him, then no other religion can be valid.

old comment by Kandel

I am going to be the bigger person and walk away. As soon as I clear up a few things for you.

I have no need to defend myself to you. You have only proved what I already know. And as for your new name, Kandel was never lit to start with.

I appreciate you RESPECTING my beliefs. I also appreciate you calling me immoral, because that's the best compliment you can give to someone who has not openly insulted you in any way. Forgive me if I come off as hostle in any posts before this one. After this, I really don't care.

And you know what? If hell does exist, which I genuinely believe it does NOT, then I appreciate your vote of confidence that I'll fit in. You see, I've been worried about making friends if I get there...

Anyway, you CAN insult me all you want. But don't talk smack about ANY religion. EVER. Nobody has the right to tell you what you can and can't believe. I don't care about your little proofs; we've established this. And don't talk down about my religion. I didn't tell you the name of it because it's really none of your business, and it still isn't.

But DO NOT insult Wicca. Or Neopaganism in general. Yeah, I'm one of THOSE lot. You seriously have no idea what you're talking about. And we have rules. And we know that any energies we put out will come back to us three-fold. If I ever get to the point where I'm shouting my religion like you are, thank you Goddess, I DESERVE this energy back. (But please, Lord and Lady, protect me from being a fundie in the next life.)

And as a last defense of the concept of FREE WILL, I never said that Jesus was a liar. Just that he's only ONE system of belief, and there are others out there that you don't know about that have just as much proof.

May you one day open your mind, eyes, and heart. I hope you part in good spirits.

old comment by Kandeleted

Kandel,

I don't think you are being a bigger person walking away, for in doing so, you just shut your mind down and don't respond, even now, to the evidence for the proof given of Jesus being the one and only God. You admit you have heard it all before, but still to this day you are unable to disprove the proof for God and Jesus being God. You should consider such behavior as being disingenuous, for if you heard about it before, you should have given your life to Christ long ago and become a member of the body of Christ.

You were lit once, when you are a young child, for if you were to die at that time, God would save you because you hadn't reached the age of accountability yet. Go back to your earliest memories and recall your earlier condition. This is the condition God wants you to get back to in your conscience. But when you did reach the age of accountability, obviously, you didn't give your life to Christ but only hardened your heart further as the years went on. Very sad.

I can't respect false beliefs or beliefs you have that you have no basis for holding. Indeed, it is quite immoral to claim if you rape someone according to Karma you are suppose to be reincarnated so you can be raped. That's twisted. What an immorality you harbor. Whether you insulted me or not, your belief is totally unethical reflecting your immoral god.

Hell is required as we have seen. It is required because you can't cease to exist. But neither can you be with the saved because you call Jesus a liar and reject God's love through His only begotten Son. Where are you suppose to go then? Obviously, Hell is the only place that is available for you. Why can't you cease to exist? Because you are made in God's image and God's image can never cease to exist. Nobody in th Adamic race can cease to exist, because we are all made in God's image.

When you get to Hell it won't be about making friends, but torment, punishment, isolation and regret under judgment. The best I can describe it is to go to a prison and feel what it would be like to spend the rest of your days there. Obviously you fit right in there because there is no other place under heaven where you do fit in. Each person has their own Hellish experience which is given righteously to you by how you respond to Christ today. Your hell will not be the same as Hitler's. Someone who came so close to the Word of God and still rejects God is going to experience a hell different than someone who never even heard His name, though still rejected the Creator of the mountains and the stars.

Exposing false religions is not talking smack but speaking the truth which sets you free. This does not disallow them to believe what they want to believe, but for those who care for the truth we exposes false teachings to protect you from deceptions.

Of course you feel insulted because you are living a lie, so when someone tells you the truth that exposes your false beliefs, you will react emotionally.

Notice your problem how you shut your mind down to the proofs. Instead of actually dealing with them you belittle them as little proofs. You're not being very genuine at all. Does it make you feel good to be so ignorant?

Because you can't defend the false ideas of your religion and you can't find fault with the proof for Jesus Christ being God, realize your religion is a lie and it is how you maintain your separation from God on your way to Hell. All secret religions are false, just like your secret religion that you tried to withold admitting for so long. What an unloving god your god is who makes his religion secret to prevent people from knowing about it. The real reason you keep it secret is because you're embarrassed by its absurdities.

Wicca and neopaganism are lies of the Devil for we have established it is false that you are going to come back as a chicken. Think of the sin of this belief. You have another chance in your next life so that you can sin all you want in this life. That's what Satan wants is for you to sin as much as you can in this life. See how that works? Evil beliefs lead to evil ways. The reality is you get this one life, this one chance, and if can't come to the cross to receive Jesus as your Savior, then you belong in Hell. The energy you deserve back is an eternity in Hell.

You can shout your religion all you like by saying it is being insulted, but Christianity keeps destroying all your mistaken assumptions by the sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God.

Indeed, you call Jesus a liar, because Jesus said He is the only way to salvation. There is not mutliple ways like Oprah says. There is no other name under heaven which one may be saved. He said if you not for Him you are against Him. There are no religions out there that have any proof whatsoever. Do you know why? Because no religion has the uncreated Creator walking in the likeness of flesh in Jesus Christ who is the fullness of the Godhead bodily and proved it by His resurrection. All religions contradict each other. There is no mysterious religion for any religion that is true would be widely known by now and show all others to be false. If there was a valid religion besides Christianity, you could mention it, but you can't.

In fact, you only need consider the major religions because God would not make Himself so unavailable with secret religions. Therefore, there are only four choices, and only one is right.

old comment by Christopher

@ Michael

I admire your brave endurance. Troy, or as I like to call him "the thrice cursed liar", drones endlessly on a repeating loop.

His whole shtick is:
1) Argument from assumption
2) Perfect four proof argument [disproven]
3) Minimal facts approach [disproven]
4) Lie
Repeat step one.

I don't think Troy has ever truely engaged with anything anyone has ever said to him on this board.

Whatever you say, whatever your argument he just blithely dismisses it & returns to his 1, 2, 3, 4 repetition. To me [an admitted non-expert] that would seem to imply Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder.

As I've told you before Troy GET HELP! This is NOT normal behaviour you are displaying.

old comment by Truth Will Set You Free

Since most skeptical scholars believe Paul really wrote Gal. 1 & 2, 1 Cor. 15, then how do you explain him saying he saw Jesus and met with the Apostles Peter, James and John who also said they saw Jesus resurrected, spoke with Him, walked with Him, talked with Him and touched Him?

If everything in the universe has a cause, how can the universe just start up by itself? Or, if the universe has always been existing, how can you still be sinning in light of the exponential progression of conscience?

If Islam is right six centuries later that Jesus didn't die on the cross, what evidence do they have to support such a claim to avoid the atonement?

If Hinduism is right, what evidence is there you could come back as a chicken and that you can sin all you want this life because you will always get another chance to come back as a chicken? or that you being a moral being that then Brahma would be an amoral being? What evidence is there in Buddhism that you should shut your mind down in Nirvana to shut off your desires and that having desires is bad?

I thought we would address these two main religions first before we move onto these secret religions you mentioned that almost nobody knows about.

old comment by Kandel

Uh-huh, yeah, I apologize for losing my temper, Troy. You know what? As apology, I won't give up on you. :(

Are you secure in your beliefs? Are you POSITIVE that you're right and everyone else is wrong? Yeah? Good. Because I want you to do me a favor.

There's this little book, most of which can be found at:
http://books.google.com/books?id=DfWueb8Kvd4C&pg=PP1&dq=wicca+demystified&sig=ACfU3U28HBLB93NYaKn8CSFAUG-klGt4_A#PPP1,M1

And if you're secure in your beliefs, then there's no problem with you reading it, is there? Because I'm not looking to change you over to another religion. You're comfortable where you are. I'd just really appreciate it if you wouldn't try to convert people.

If you don't like what you read, you can take it out on me all you like. Tell me I'm going to hell, or whatever. Tell me that this book promotes being closed into sin. I just was reading it, and thought of the poor soul who's afraid God won't appreciate him if he opens his mind a little.

old comment by I Love It

Everyone else isn't wrong, but you are since you call Jesus a liar.

However much it may upset you and Satan that Christ tried to lead people to the Father through Him and Christians try to lead people to salvation so they don't go to Hell, the work continues.

Jesus said, "Go now, and remember that I am sending you out as lambs among the wolves...anyone who accepts your message is also accepting me. Anyone who rejects me is rejecting God who sent me" (Luke 10.3,16).

God said He is proven in nature, so you are without excuse. Open your mind a little to realize since nothing in nature happens all by itself, the universe can't cause itself. Hence, there must be an uncreated Creator. This is the first and foremost proof of God. Address this first, before jumping around and trying to deflect onto other stuff.

The Bible is quite clear who the liar is. "Who is the LIAR but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son." (1 John 2.22)

The difference you see this constitutes a proof, whereas your mindless self-declarations don't. Anybody can say anything and accuse anyone of anything, but can you prove it?

Our loving God only entered into creation through Jesus Christ who was a man. Any religion that tells you that there is a Goddess and a God for two multiple uncreated Creators is lying to you, because there can only be one uncreated Creator according to basic math. God chose to enter creation as a man, not a woman. The Roman Church like Wicca needs their Goddess also, but it is false, since there is no evidence Mary was sinless (there are verses of her sinning and being selfish), nor is there any evidence for a Goddess of Wicca. Evidence is what matters which is why Christianity succeeds where others have failed. If Wicca were true it would not comprise all the centuries less than 1% of adherents of the world. A loving God would not make Himself so inaccessible. Such inaccessibility of your cult puffs you up to make your self think you have something others don't, but it is a lie through and through, so you got nothing but deceit and deception which is ultimately for evil purposes.

My heartfelt prayers go out to you. Amen.

old comment by Kandel

In the first place, you really should read what I say before you answer. This isn't the first time you've done this here, either.

It's a shame. At first, I thought we'd be able to have a conversation. Guess I'm the stupid one. >_>;

It's also a shame you couldn't do a little research on your own, because most of your assumptions about what I believe are rather misfounded. For example, we really probably DON'T come back as chickens.

I'm not closing my mind. I'm just tired of this. You're definitely not convincing anyone if you keep insulting me.

However, while your behavior patterns are abnormal (meaning help wouldn't be a bad idea after all), I appreciate you not saying I worship Satan. I don't remember you ever saying that, and at least you aren't entirely misinformed. And if you did, and I forgot - you did say I'm sinful and immoral, with no knowledge of my personal ethics- then whatever.

I'm sure you are a good man. Just unlucky enough to live the life of a fundie.

old comment by A. Person

Allow me to address the so called "perfect proof"

The first step says that if we had evolved over many years, we would be free of sin. He blatantly ignores that evolution is not a perfect system and that sinning would not cause someone to die.

The second argument states that every event in nature must necessarily have a cause, therefore something must have set it in motion, an unmoved mover. This is obviously fallacious, since adhering to this logic means that if god can create himself, surely the universe could do the same thing.

The third simply states that you must argue against the biblical god to defeat the argument. Fair enough, seeing as how it makes my job even easier ;)

The fourth argument... oh dear, I can't even understand it. I think it's just so stupid I can't comprehend it, someone else want to try?

old comment by I Love It

Kandel,

I am glad to hear now you say you don't come back as a chicken, so that means you are rejecting Hinduism, since they believe that. But then you appear to have your own religion, since it is not Christian, not Hindu, not Islamic. What do you call your religion? The religion of self? The religion of antichrist?

This is a contradiction which you have shut your mind down to. Since there is no evidence you are going to be reimparted into society as a chicken or someone who gets raped because you were a rapist according to Karma, then realize this is all goofiness. It is a way for your sin nature to propel itself, because you think you always get another chance in another life. This is Satan's deception.

I am glad some people are convinced in the proof for an uncreated Creator, and not only this, but only Jesus meets the requirement of the love and proof of God. Why you ask? Because only in Christianity does the Creator enter His creation. Nothing is more personal and intimate. It would be quite meaningless otherwise. Oh that's right, your faith is meaningless and without purpose, but encourages you to sin more. This behavior is quite abnormal and unhealthy.

Realize you do worship Satan, because you are antichrist. Inside your inner spirit indwells the evil spirit who guides you whether it be in your good self, petty self, or sinful self-all of which keep you separated from God because you call Jesus a liar. Your conscience is so dead you probably can't even sense the evil spirit in your intuition.

Realize your choice is yours alone and you have nobody to blame but yourself.

Every human being who ever lived is a sinner; stop focusing so much on your self to think it is some personal attack. Every human being, the Bible says, is born into sin. If you ever did even one thing wrong in your life, you have either been selfish, overassuming or sinful. Sin leads to death and the second death which is Hell where you are going I assure you with full and complete confidence.

If you are not for Christ, you're for the Antichrist, because to be antichrist is to be not for Christ. There is no in between.

How sad for you to want to live so unethically.

old comment by I Love It

Let's see if we can help A.Person.

Does sin lead you to die? When you smoke too much which is a sin, statistically this is proven you increase all kinds of propensities for illnesses, including cancer and life expectancy drops dramatically. That is a fact!

Step 1 of the 4 Step Proof for God is not saying anything about evolution, since evolution can't explain how the first single-celled organism came into being, so evolution is useless and not worth talking about and it is imperfect because of its faulty assumption that evolution can explain the big picture, so it need not be addressed.

I have noticed very strange behavior in unregenerates: they keep reciting words like evolution and religion which are so vague they are of no meaning to address specifically how God proves Himself. So by repeating these words it is a way to shut their minds down to the specificity of God's Proof of Himself.

Step 1 exhibits in our being an exponential progression of conscience that we all observe and can testify to these past 6000 years. That progression is so dramatic, it would not take a million years to reach sinlessness, such that, if there was an eternity of the past of cause and effects, our existence would approximate to that past and we would not still be sinning by now.

The Bible doesn't say God created Himself, and most religions that believe in an uncreated being don't say their god created himself. How silly. Maybe you want to start a religion that makes such a goofy claim since you already did.

Do you see how you try to disprove Step 2 of the Proof by violating Step 3? Step 3 says don't agrue against a quality of some god that is not the quality of what we are talking about that is proven in Step 1 & 2; given these two evidences, there must be an uncreated Creator.

Since nothing in nature can happen all by itself, we know there must be an uncreated Creator. Cosmologists who are not Christians are unanimous in agreeing there is a "transcendent causal agent and intelligent designer"; not versed in theogy, perhaps some don't realize this is the Creator spoken of in the Bible. The absolute intricacies put in place in the universe show its clear design by a Creator infinitely greater than us all. He is more caring and loving than any of us could ever be. Take for example, how so many factors in our own solar system are required for life to exist on Earth. If Earth was just 1% closer to the Sun or 1% farther away from the Sun, life would not exist on Earth. If the Moon didn't exist, life would not exist on earth, because the rotation of the earth would not exist as it is now. When a planet sized object collided with Earth, the Moon was created, and the earth's atmosphere was lowered and gravity was less, for us to live on. It would have been far too heavier before. For life to exist on earth there need be on a horizontal plane a planet the size of Jupitor otherwise Earth would be constantly bombarded and redestroyed over and overy. That is just a few things, There are 253 variables. Even the astoriod belt outside our solar sytem is needed to replenish the earth's water supply, because the sun is 17% hotter now than in earth's earlier history. Get the book, "Creator and the Comsos" and corresponding videos. What things scientists know now will blow you away! Get some books from John Ankerberg's site.

There are at least 253 variables that require life in the universe, which leads to the conclusion only Earth has life on it. The reason there are 100 trillion stars is because that is what was needed to create the elemental table. Any more would be too much and any less would be not enough. Though beautiful, the reason there are this many stars was to get the full elemental table.

Scientists also agree it is impossible for a gooy muck to turn into the first single celled organism. It has to be divine intervention.

The reason you shut your mind down to Step 4 is not because you are stupid, though you may be, but because you love your sin nature, so you must reject your Creator because you prefer to engorg yourself in you sin nature without conscience.

Step 4 is simple. If there was an eternity of the past in cause and effects in the supernatural realm, you would also not still be sinning by now, because you would have been derived and approximate to the eternity of the past, but you don't need that much time considering the exponential progression of conscience ain't gonna take you a million years to reach sinlessness.

old comment by Christopher

@ Troy the thrice cursed liar.

Troy the thrice cursed liar wrote "I have noticed very strange behavior in unregenerates: they keep reciting words like evolution and religion which are so vague they are of no meaning..."

Words like evolution & religion have no meaning Troy? You liar you. Here's some definitions for the words you write have no meaning:

Religion
re·li·gion noun
A specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.

Evolution
ev·o·lu·tion noun
Biology. change in the gene pool of a population from generation to generation by such processes as mutation, natural selection, and genetic drift.

Lied again didn't you Troy? Get help! You are NOT behaving normally! Seek out psychiatric help.

old comment by Christopher

@ troy
First you just copied this from another thread without reading what I wrote in this one. Oh thou thrice cursed liar.

Now let's look at your lies shall we.

Understand how he is trying be sly through his coyness. [This makes no sense whatever but since I've already given you the definitions of the word coy you already know this].

By not professing Jesus before men, he pretends like he is not going to Hell and that somehow someway he hasn't called Jesus a liar. [Calling YOU a liar is NOT the same thing as calling Jesus a liar no matter how much you want it to be the same].

Constantly bearing false witness to be evasive and coy, is the method of the evil spirit in your heart to continue to call Jesus a liar and not confess Him before men. [Once again this makes no sense because in no way are people acting coquettish around you or being shy. I've also already shown you where you lied before in the thread. I'm sorry if your memory is so bad but that really isn't my problem now is it? Just do a search on this site with my name. You'll find out here I've shown you to be a liar several times].

Antichrists accuse Christians, "you believe you are God".
[Excuse me thou thrice cursed liar you were asked about your motives. In reply you described God's motives. The only way that has any meaning is that you have the same motives as God, ergo you are God. QED].

Believers do not believe we are God, for only God is God.
[Ahh Troy the thrice cursed I didn't say believers said that. I said YOU wrote it. You are NOT a believer just a very sick man. Get psychiatric help].

Only God is uncreated. Humans are made in God's image (Gen. 1.26,27), and we are all created. Since Christians agree with God's motives in no way makes Christians God. How absurd! God wants you to agree with His will and do it! [Ahh lying again troy thou thrice cursed liar. You didn't say you agreed with God's will you wrote that your will & God's will were the same thing. Bit different isn't it liar?]

You need to get help, because sinning bearing false witness does not constitute a valid argument. [I've already shown repeatedly where you've lied. Just calling it false witness won't make your lies go away Troy. In fact the more you post on this site the more people can read your lies & find out just how big of a liar you are].

Would you like me to list your lies Troy? Will you admit your sin, repent & seek psychiatric help if I list your lies or will you keep spamming & trolling this site regardless? Your choice oh thrice cursed.

old comment by Christopher

The definition of coy you are using then is: artfully or affectedly shy or reserved; slyly hesitant; coquettish."

In other words you are accusing Rime & myslf of flirting with you because that is what slyly hesitant means [Definition: A woman who flirts lightheartedly with men to win their admiration and affection; flirt]. Sorry to disappoint but I am NOT a woman & don't find you the slightest bit attractive. Sorry.

You also wrote "The defintion being used of coy is most apt since the definition of coyness being used is that of slyness and demure."

Definition of demure " Characterized by shyness and modesty."

So to sum up you were accusing Rime & myself of flirting with you & being shy & modest. That's what the words mean Troy. Now the question becomes were you wrong or were you lying? Your choice Troy.

old comment by Christopher

@ troy

You wrote "Christopher,

To repeat... [You've never said this before troy the thrice cursed liar but I will play you game.]

I would be happy to respond to your question about your vague use of the words "religion" and "evolution", if you first address why you don't confess Jesus as your Lord and Savior before the people here at fstdt. Why be coy?"

I am not coy. I have never said I am a Christian though I was. I am a Zoroastrian & a philosopher. I find reason to be a better guide to life than fanatics such as yourself.
Oh and before you just come up with some sweepingly stupid phrase of contempt fo zoroastrianism think about this - the "wise men" who visited Jesus at his birth [according to the Gospels] were known as Magi. That's the term used in northern Persia for Zoroastrian priest. So if they're part f the antichrist's system then that means the antichrist brought gifts to Jesus. Sorta screwy your interpretation isn't it? But that happens if you don't know anything about the ancient languages you book was written in or the history surrounding your book.

Now answer my question please. You wrote "I would be happy to respond to your question about your vague use of the words "religion" and "evolution", if you first address why you don't confess Jesus as your Lord and Savior before the people here at fstdt."

I've answered your question now answer mine. Or was that just another one of your lies.

old comment by Christopher

@ troy

You wrote "You haven't explained any reasoning for why you reject Jesus. Why do you call Jesus a liar?"

I've already told you I prefer reason to fanatics like you now I am waiting for my question to be answered. Answer it or be forever damned as the liar that you are.

Ahhh I begin to see the point now. You can't answer my question because it was a lie wasn't it Troy? You would be shown up as the liar you are wouldn't you?

Oh by the way your true christian statement was a perfect example of the no true scotsman fallacy.
Allow me to illustrate:
No true scotsman wears pants.
I'm a scotsman & I wear pants.
Ah but you're not a TRUE scotsman because no true scotsman wears pants. [That is a stupid fallacy]

No true christian would ever leave the faith.
I was a christian & I left the faith.
Ah but you're not a TRUE christian because no true christian ever leaves the faith. [another stupid fallacy]

old comment by Christopher

@ Troy

You wrote that I wasn't a Christian although I said I was.

But before you wrote "You are not a Christian for Christians don't accuse brothers and sisters in Christ of being non-Christian."

Now as for me I was saved by grace not works, bathed in the blood, accepted Jesus as my Lord & Saviour, prayed the sinners prayer & accpted God's unmerited grace. Can you say the same?

God's grace, not works made me a christian - an adopted son of God. But you have declared that I never was. Therefore you have declared that I was a non-chritian. Which according to you makes you a non-christian too. You little old liar you.
You've also declared God a liar for He said we were saved by faith not works lest any man should boast & I accepted that grace from God & had faith in God. But you are saying I was never saved although God says I was.
If you have trouble with this argue with God not me. He's the one you're calling a liar.

old comment by Christopher

@ troy

Will your lies never stop Troy.

I am ashamed of you.

You wrote "Christopher,

You use these words evolution and religion vaguely as though they somehow agree with you in your rejecting Christ, but you have no evidence." I NEVER used the terms evolution & Religion Rime did!

Secondly you didn't say the terms were being used improperly or vaguely you said they had no meaning at all. That's your second lie Troy.

"That's your problem-your dishonesty. Suffice it to say, you can't show these words agree with you in your calling Jesus a liar." Third lie Try I didn't say Jesus was a liar I said you were in giving the meaning of words. Show me where Jesus defined the term evolution? So you can't just declare you were agreeing with Jesus!

Finally you wrote "The Bible doesn't contradict itself. If it did, you could show it." But you've just shown how it says one thing & then another. You have written that it contradicts itself.

& then you finally admit that the term Satanic Grace isn't found in the bible but that you just made it up. So you admit that you've added to scripture. Blasphemer!

old comment by Christopher

@ Troy

Had to deal with one more of your lies.

You wrote "You misread, for the full quote indicates using these words vaguely."

Let's look at the full quote shall we? You wrote "I have noticed very strange behavior in unregenerates: they keep reciting words like evolution and religion WHICH ARE SO VAGUE THEY ARE OF NO MEANING to address specifically how God proves Himself." Pretty clear Troy.

What are vague according to you? "words like evolution and religion WHICH ARE SO VAGUE THEY ARE OF NO MEANING."

So it wasn't people that were using them improperly it was, according to your lies, that the "words were so vague they are of no meaning" So what are you saying is vague? THE WORDS! What are the words according to you? "vague & of no meaning"! But we know that they do have a meaning don't they Troy?

What meaning do you give the term evolution? According to you it means "When the Bible says man was CREATED from dust in Gen. 2.7, this is evolution." But that is a lie isn't it Troy? That verse is talking about creationism which is "the belief that the universe and living creatures were created by God in accordance with the account given in the Old Testament." NOT evolution which is "Change in the gene pool of a population from generation to generation by such processes as mutation, natural selection, and genetic drift."

They're not the same are they Troy? You lied didn't you Troy?

I mean for heaven sake the verse provided even has the word CREATION in it yet you lie & say the verse is about evolution. You are even lying about what the bible says now Troy. How can you blaspheme like this? Why should we believe a single thing you say?

old comment by Christopher

Troy did you or did you not post under different names & have a conversaton with yourself?

In other words did you pretend to be "Amen", "Sincere", & "Mary Smith"? And did you or did you not comment on your own posts? Don't be coy Troy [to quote you] answer the question.

& in 2008-Jan-26 at 01:59 AM you wrote this "This is the last post I will ever post at fstdt because adherents of fstdt are so mindless." Yet here you are Troy back again. You wrote that you would NEVER come back but you have. You broke your word didn't you Troy? But breaking your word is lying Troy. Didn't you know that? You shall not bare false witness Troy? Remember where that comes from Troy?

old comment by Christopher

@ Troy
You lying little hound
I've never mentioned Jesus. Gave a precise definition of Religion & evolution yet you continue to tell lies about me & refuse to answer questions. Sad sad man. However you say I MUST be a liar because I refuse to proclaim jesus is the Christ. You win Troy. Jesus is the Christ. There you go. You do realise that the word christ is koinne Greek & means ointment don't you? [I have no doubt you'll deny that. You with absolutely NO knowledge of Greek or ancient history know absolutely everything about the bible. just like you know everything about evolution [even when you do get it confused with creation]. But hey if you want me to proclaim that your saviour was ointment who am I to argue. I'll even say He wasn't a regular Christ...He was the king-sized version.

Now since I am no longer a liar I guess that just leaves you doesn't it? But let's face it you don't have the courage to admit what you've done.

Tell me Troy when when Jesus asks you "Troy did you really tell all these lies?" will you refuse to answer Him the same way you've done us? Or will you say something like "Yes I did Lord but you can't punish me for it...'cause I'm born again...covered in your blood Lord so you can't punish me no matter what I've done." Is that why you tell all these lies Troy? Because you believe that born agains can get away with anything? Or do you believe that telling lies doesn' cont as long as its for God? Don't worry Troy I don't expect an answer. The only answer you'll ever give is to personally attack me just like you've alwys done. Well I have the perfect reply. I forgive you troy. I forgive all your insults & all your lies about me.

@ Ilovemusicals
It really isn't hard to notice that Troy dodges questions.
Really conversing with troy is really an exercise in stupidity. He demands answers to questions but never answers any asked of him. He lies continually & when called on it dodges the question [something he calls coy :)]. And he will never, ever admit a mistake.
To me however there came a time when I had to ask myself since Troy is really having a conversation with himself [we are just incidental to him delivering his cycle of step 1: denial & dodging the question, Step 2: Unrelated scripture verses, Step 3: 4 proofs, Step 4: I know you are but what am I?, repeat from step one] then what's the point. I might as well have a conversation with a machine. At least that would be polite.
As the saying goes don't wrestle a pig. You only become dirty & the pig enjoys it.
See ya all.

old comment by Anon-e-moose

@Piawr - Never have truer words been said. At least agnostics/atheists have EVIDENCE to back up what they say. Fundies like Troy-boy can only come up with word salad - and no hard, solid, PHYSICAL evidence. And he wonders why people don't accept what he says? Incidentally, another reason why we don't accept what he says, is his pure hard-headed & bloody-minded refusal to listen to what anyone else says - he just has HIS one-dimensional mindset, which he thinks others MUST listen to & accept on spec. - and woe betide anyone who says/thinks otherwise, because he'll use the tried & tested method of emotional blackmail, coercion & threats of eternal hellfire for beknighted heathens (which of course is the last resort of the Fundie). But will he listen to a differing viewpoint? Will he even so much as contemplate the notion of even THINKING that maybe there is NO 'God' and thus no 'Jesus'? That perhaps there's no such thing as 'Heaven' or 'Hell'? And that when we die, that's it - Finito. Goodnight Vienna. GAME OVER. (At least we don't have anything to threaten him with - does that make us good & him bad? I think so. And maybe that's what he & his Fundy ilk are afraid of: NOTHING. Total oblivion when we die, so he needs his security blankie of 'FAITH')

A definite case of 'Do as I say, not as I do.'

Troy-boy, I suggest you try doing what you expect others to do: LISTEN to what they say. Especially keeping in mind that quote by Winston Churchill in my previous post. Oh, and if you opened up that little one-man forum of yours a bit more (without the constrictions you put up in the registration process & make it more like conventional forums on the 'Net (Don't post words/pics that are actionable, don't spam, respect others & generally play nice etc), then maybe it'd be more like said forums - i.e. LIVELY (as in NOT DEAD). And would be a nice place to go.

old comment by Anon-e-moose

Ah, more word salad eh, Troy-boy? Remember: No evidencee, no believee. And mere words aren't EVIDENCE. And all your hocus-pocus 'propaganda' (& threats of 'Hellfire') never will be.

Just make your invisible sky wizard appear to us - that's all it'll take. But of course, if he DID, then religion would be destroyed. Proof denies 'Faith', and without 'Faith' there can be no 'Belief'.

'Faith'. 'Belief'. All part of the greatest scam ever committed upon humanity: RELIGION. BTW, Troy-boy, I've read the Bible, and I must say that it reinforced this quote:

'Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for Atheism ever conceived.'

-Isaac Asimov.

One more thing. The Bible itself, and the film "Jesus Camp" are three things that make me PROUD to be an Atheist (and British; I'm glad we're too cynical in the UK to fall for any of that load of superstitious 'Revelations' & 'Rapture' bollocks, nor have any of you Fundy nutty buggers here).

...oh, and what's the third thing? Just take a look in the mirror, Troy-boy.

old comment by Anon-e-moose

#763896

Pic very related, courtesy of Nanoha StrikerS' Subaru Nakajima:

[IMG]http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/7878/1183490179793id7.jpg[/IMG]

It may look delicious, but I'm not eating it, Troy-boy.

Still holding back on the physical proof of your 'God of the Bible' (i.e. him actually SHOWING himself), eh? Of course. Because you know that once he did, your religion would be destroyed (Proof denies 'Faith' & all that jazz). Or maybe the reason why he won't show himself is because... HE CAN'T? And why can't he? Because he DOESN'T EXIST. And why should we waste mental effort in accepting the existence of a so-called deity who can't even show himself? Such a 'deity' has NO right to be believed in. He wants our 'worship'? 'Worship' & 'Belief' are privileges that he has to EARN. And that means actually SHOWING himself.

old comment by Who Can Deny It?

It's quite unrealistic for you to reject God of the Bible physically, for He already entered into His creation physically almost 2000 years ago. He was so well attested better than anyone in antiquity even skeptical scholars don't deny that Jesus walked the earth.

It's quite unrealistic for you to demand of Him that He perform a parlor trick for you right now and pop up right in front of you. He said He would return at the appointed time to then reign on earth for a 1000 years. Patience. I have a funny suspicion that even if He did perform a parlor trick for you, you will still call Him a liar. You're a bad guy. Fess up! When you view it in this light a person is grateful Hell exists for you, for God is so loving He would not allow you to be near us, the redeemed, in eternity future.

old comment by Who Can Deny It?

Harry Potter is a novel and never claims to be anything but, that is, it is talking about fictional characters.

Whereas the Septuagint was written 3rd century B.C. so it was well documented what those prophecies were that then came to pass in Jesus Christ.

Why shut your mind down like a mindless zombie? You know you are only going to Hell for that, because the reason you shut your mind down is so that you can remain in your ugly sin nature and self to reject the love and forgiveness of the salvation on on the cross by Christ.

All skeptical scholars admit Jesus walked the earth, for there is just too much religio-historical documentation to deny it.

The dumbest person I have ever met in my life is Richard Dawkins. He said that the first replicating single celled organism was intelligently designed by a species of beings, but he shuts his mind down to the fact that supposed species of beings would have to have had the same requirement.

Mindless!

Bottom line: the uncreated Creator is proven and He is Jesus for none can compare to Christ. Amen.

old comment by Anon-e-moose

#768585

"I have a funny suspicion that even if He did perform a parlor trick for you, you will still call Him a liar"

I'd be prepared to test that theory. I'm calling you & your God's bluff. Have him appear to everyone in the world NOW. Only then would I accept the existence of such a being. Oh, BTW, as you said in another thread:

#329559

2007-Oct-10 07:42 PM

"Nobody is forcing you to accept Christ."

O RLY? I can think of two people. You. And God. Believe in the Bible & what it says, or be eternally tortured? I'd call that coercion, emotional blackmail. Being FORCED. I don't like being forced to do/say/think what others say I should. That makes them dictators. That makes them EVIL. Ergo, they have NO right to exist.

Your move, chuckles.

old comment by Anon-e-moose

#770545

"you are going to be judged for all eternity and locked in a place called hell"

Here we go again with the emotional blackmail - the last resort of the frustrated Fundie who can't persuade those who think for themselves, and won't allow themselves to be controlled by said Fundies. And (considering the quote by Troy-boy in my previous post) conclusively proves their hypocrisy (and your invisible sky wizard doesn't like hypocrites!). You said here:

#329559

2007-Oct-10 07:42 PM

"Nobody is forcing you to accept Christ."

And yet in your latest post, you ARE forcing people, with threats of 'Hellfire' - 'Believe in God, or be eternally tortured!' By the same token, even God himself is a hypocrite! Thus he has to hate HIMSELF & damn himself to Hellfire!

"Don't test the Lord your God."

Why not? Afraid that if he IS tested (if he IS actually capable of being tested), your fragile little worldview called 'Faith' would be shattered by my challenge? (and after all, if your 'God' can do something as HYPER-complex as 'create' this universe, this planet & all the life on it, then frankly, merely showing himself - that is God himself and NOT Jesus - would be a piece of piss?!). Again, I'm calling your (& your so-called 'God's) bluff. Like I say, all it'll take for me to accept the existence of this being known as 'God', is for him to actually SHOW himself in physical form. That's ALL it'll take.

And while I'm (and the good people here are) waiting, here's a relevant quote from the ancient Greek philosopher Epicurus:

[IMG]http://img381.imageshack.us/img381/6580/epicurusquote1kp8.jpg[/IMG]

Especially taking into account this quote from the Bible:

Isaiah 45:7: 'I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.'

I emphasise 'create evil'.

Considering what God has done as described in the Old Testament, frankly, Satan (if he exists too) is St. Francis of Assisi by comparison.

So much for 'God is Love'.

old comment by The Truth Will Set You Free

It is because the proof was given you could find no fault with that proves you are going to Hell. It is not emotional blackmail just the fact of the matter.

You are aware of the choice befor you, that you can't disprove the proof for God and you have no evidence for your beliefs, so you have no excuse when you get to Hell.

There are two destinations. Hell and Heaven (specifically when heaven and earth come together in the new city on the new earth).

God already revealed Himself in physical form in Jesus Christ in the likeness of man and proved He is God by His resurrection with much evidence for it.

You want Him to come again as a parlor trick, but He is unwilling to be unrighteous by fulfilling your selfish request, for He can't keep doing parlor tricks every day for everyone that ever lived. That is silly.

God works on His time and His ways, not your demands. You will have to bow to Him, for He is fully proven. He will never bow to you. He gave His life for you on the cross and you still call Him a liar. Shame on you sir!

God is omnipotent because He is capable of stopping evil and He does. Whence cometh evil? It comes from the natural consequence of disobedience and independency of sin unwinding itself realistically. - Troy Brooks

Properly understand Isaiah 45.7, "I am the one who creates the light and makes the darkness. I am the one who sends good times and bad times [created evil]. I, the LORD, am the one who does these things."

He did not cause Lucifer to rebel, but He will use evil for good purposes. God is infinitely smarter than you in all His dealings. I am embarrassed for you that you think you are smarter than God.

Bad things will happen to you as a consequence of your own sins, because sin has consequences and does not go unpunished. God will use Satan's wrath upon the world to punish the world for its sins. Satan wants to destroy, so God will let Satan destroy the world for a time as long as this evil generation persists.

The problem always is misreading the Bible because you don't read it by the Holy Spirit but by the evil spirit in your spirit. He does not literally create evil, but because He created Lucifer, the evil that Lucifer became by being Satan was a consequence of his own choice, a choice that God afforded him.

God did good things in the Old Testament. Imagine living in a society where each week child sacrifices took place on television. And though some nation came in each time to destroy that civilization ever generation, they would rise up again even with a small remnnant to re-engage in that horrific act again. In the Old Testament time, God used Israel to wipe out such evil nations especially in Canaan which ironically you would be defending. Interestingly, those nations no longer exist, child sacrifices are pretty much done away and miraculously Israel has returned after 2500 years. It would appear your philosophy and the prophecies of the Bible are coming true.

The 4 Step Proof for God has been reiterated billions of times and throughout the centuries. It is the very proof the Bible uses to prove God exists and Jesus is He.

Your swearing tells us that you are not in control of yourself, but allowing the evil spirit to control you. May you one day walk by the Holy Spirit and have a relationship with Jesus Christ instead of the Devil in your heart.

old comment by The Truth Will Set You Free

Jesus said of Himself, "The Son of Man came into the world to give His life a ransom for many.” (Matt. 20.28)

He didn't come to give loving messages as a prophet or teacher though His messages are full of love but to pay the penalty for your sins. If you reject that He is God, reject His resurrection, reject that He died for you to pay the penalty for your sins, you will go to Hell. It is a legal transation. God is looking for those out of His creation who accept His love and price paid. Before you can come before God at the throne, you need proper clothing and this is how He clothes us with His righteousness by dying on the cross with Him and being redeemed by His precious blood, but you must not only believe it, but receive it humbly as a helpess sinner.

“As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, let him be condemned to hell!” (Galatians 1:9)

I sincerely assure you, you are going to hell. You may not believe in the Bible, but don't misread it for that is just intellectual dishonesty.

God gives you the choice, and the choice you have made for yourself is to spend an eternity in hell. How sad for you.

old comment by Anon-e-moose

#771631

Finished throwing your toys out of your pram because the 'Beknighted Heathens' here won't go on their hands & knees and admit you're right & accept what YOU say on spec? And you wonder why people think you're the worst Fundie nutjob on the planet? Because you WON'T listen to anyone else's ideas, opinions & concepts. It's just YOUR way, or the highway. In previous posts, you referred to yourself as 'A Friend'. That has to be the oxymoron of the millennium.

#646218

"Coming on this thread to type is a cry for help"

Not counting the rest of this quote (which would require me to reply 'NO U'), this is the first piece of honesty coming from ol' Troy-boy (albeit subconsciously). If he was so secure in his 'faith', he wouldn't need to continuously harangue other forums, messageboards, whatever (Christian/other religions; Atheist/Sceptic etc), he'd just get on with his life (such as it is!). My good friend is a Christian. He knows I'm a 'Beknighted Heathen' (his words! ;) ), but I don't argue with him about his beliefs, and neither does he try & force his beliefs down my throat. He does what he needs to do regarding his beliefs. But he has a very healthy social life. He has a job (in the admin. part of the UK's Ministry of Defence), he likes cycling/walking, reading (boy, does he LOVE reading! He's a rabid bibliophile!), and especially gaming - wargames & RPGs. He also likes Sci-Fi (mainly books, but films & TV), and in recent years he's gotten into anime that I've introduced to him. As you can see, he's never let his faith take over his entire mindset & thus his whole existence. He just lives day to day being as good & decent a person anyone would expect one to be. Certainly a Christian. One who is secure & very much content in his beliefs. One who never resorts to the kind of behaviour exhibited by Fundies. One that I'm glad to call A Friend.

Mr. Brooks (& his Fundie ilk), take note.

old comment by Anon-e-moose

If God is the all powerful and all knowing creator of all, then he created evil and suffering as well as good. This also means God knows what everyone will do, so nobody gets to choose what they do. If they did get to choose, then they could "deceive" God by doing something he does not know will happen. Then God wouldn't really be all powerful.

It boils down to: Check One

[ ] God is all knowing and made evil on purpose and there is no free will .
[ ] There is free will and evil was not made by God, and God is not omniscient or omnipotent.

God created everything - including Satan.

Satan = Evil.

Thus God created Evil, therefore he is a contradiction to himself, ergo he doesn't exist.

QED.

old comment by Anon-e-moose

#774259

Word salad is not proof. Hard, solid EVIDENCE is. And the burden of proof is on YOU, Troy-boy. PROVE your 'God' exists by the method stated previously, or be shown the liar you are. And enough of the emotional blackmail you threaten us with; as you claim we're 'Sinners'. Actually, we're NOT.

'Sin' is a concept invented by Christian clergy, as part of their propaganda. And their use of 'Emotional Blackmail': 'You're a SINNER! If you don't believe in Jesus, you'll go to HELL!!'.

We Atheists don't recognise the concept of 'Sin'. Merely personal responsibility for one's actions. I could kill someone, but I choose not to. Why should I? I could rape a woman/child/goat, but I choose not to. Why should I? Because I value my freedom. I could consume humongous amounts of alcohol, tobacco, drugs etc, but I choose not to. Why should I? These things aren't vital for my survival (unlike food & non-alcoholic drinks). Religions don't have the monopoly on morals.

You're born, you live, you die. No 'Heaven', no 'Hell'. Once your life functions cease, you rot. That's it. Finito. Game Over. Goodnight Vienna. Between being born & rotting, you make your life as interesting as possible; and if you can make a positive impact upon the world, or at least do something positively memorable, so much the better. That's the Humanist way. So why should religion complicate such a simple philosophy? What RIGHT does religion have to poison so many people's lives?

old comment by a mind far far away

@ Truth: Christianity fails on all levels. Trust me. I've been studying it and practicing it practically my whole life. It is illogical, even from a religious viewpoint. The fact that you claim it is true does not make it so. I've seen the proof. It was actually studying to become an apologist for Christianity that caused me to leave, when I seen that the proof and evidence was overwhelmingly in opposition to it. Now, I have not left the religious or spiritual sphere. Buddhism seems to be pretty good. But Christianity has nothing but baseless arguments from nothing but some fantasy realm which was itself plagiarised from other religions and philosphies. So get over yourself, open your mind to reality, do a little research of your own rather than being told what to do and think and believe, and you'll be much better off for it.

old comment by a mind far far away

@Truth: Just because you can't admit the faults with Christianity doesn't mean their not faults, only that your thinking is faulty. Why is it illogical to believe anything but Christianity? Buddhism has much more scientific research to back it up. There are many faults with your proof, again, you just can't see it due to your delusions. You say I was never born again, other denominations would disagree, and some would say I still am. I could care less. Christians say that to those who have left simply because they think it will hurt them. Now, you say Buddhism is false because it's atheistic, and that atheism is proven false. How so? You're "proofs"? They are easily deniable and can be refuted. Whereas your God promotes suffering and punishment, Buddhism teaches the way to end suffering. No contest, when one realizes that your God is sadistic. Nothing is original about Christianity. Everything in it can be found in prior religions. The resurrection thing? Both Phoebe and Heracles from Greek paganism. Claims of God walking in person? Again, check the pagan religions. Krishna, the avatar of Vishnu, various Greek and Roman gods, not to mention Celt and Norse. Buddha claimed to be greater than the gods. The OT Hebrews were looking for nothing like what Christ is portrayed as in the NT. That's why most rejected him. The only ones that accepted him were the poor and uneducated, pretty much like today. You can condemn me to hell if you like, if it makes you feel better about yourself. I'll keep working toward something better than your heaven. The reason I'm talking to you is because you came here. It has nothing to do with me wanting to reconsider Christianity. Of course that goes both ways. I could just as easily say the reason you are talking to me is because you realize that you might very well be wrong, and that I plainly and simply speak the truth. Of course, you have offered nothing but a website that didn't convince me of anything except that I've made the right choice. If I really were seeking to find some reason to come back, any your proofs really were that compelling, then that should have caused me to unequivocally return to Christ. It hasn't. There is no logic behind God. However, the Buddha taught not to shut our minds down, but to open them up to the reality of the world around us.

old comment by Anon-e-moose

Every time Troy-boy posts his verbal diarrhoea, it makes me more & more an Atheist. Because it makes me want to avoid his poisonous form of right-wing Fundy Christianity like the plague. Yes, Right-Wing. This idiot wants McCain & Palin to get to the White House. The same dickheads who'll drive America further into the new Dark Ages started by Bush II. He even accuses Barack Obama of murder! (http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2663). I trust his legal team will get to hear of this (who knows? Maybe I'll let 'em know?!) and the next sound you'll hear will be the sharpening of knives & writs from Obama's lawyers. That kind of talk is actionable - even on the Net (and even saying so via hiding behind one of your sockpuppets won't help you).

More of your emotional blackmail, I see. More of your 'You'll go to HELL for not believing in JAYZARSE!' dogtoffee. More reason why people don't fall to their knees & accept what you say on spec. It has nothing to do with our 'sin nature' & 'shutting our minds down'. Because 'Sin' doesn't exist, and our minds are very much active, thanks. And that's the problem - for you & your Fundie ilk, anyway. Because we have a sense of cynicism (especially we British; a sense of irony, if you will), and the ability to QUESTION things. Especially the ability to question leaders - particularly religious CLERGY. And that's where the 'Emotional Blackmail' thing comes in. In the Dark Ages, people were essentially illiterate. They were what we would consider today as 'morons' (but not their fault; they weren't educated - mainly because they weren't ALLOWED to be), who believed everything they were told by the educators of the day - the CLERGY. And of course, natural occurences easily explainable today were considered acts of 'God', and thus the Clergy were able to exert control & thus POWER over people. Then came the Renaissance - and not only with the art. There were great leaps in scientific discoveries, especially by the likes of Galileo. And of course what he discovered was slammed by the Vatican, with threats of the Inquisition, because his discoveries conflicted with Catholoc dogma. But the rot had set in (for religious belief, anyway)- people (especially the growing number of scientists constantly publishing their discoveries) started QUESTIONING religious belief, and thus the almost absolute power of the clergy started crumbling (albeit slowly). Which brings us to today. So many facts have been revealed by scientists, that the clergy (even the likes of Troy-boy) have had to resort to 'moving the goalposts' & reinterpreting the Bible to fit in with science (the whole 'Creationism' thing , and the Earth being only 6000 years old shows how they try & FAIL). And when they can't convince people, then they have to resort to Emotional Blackmail & threats of 'Hellfire'. Because those who have power are afraid to lose it. Certainly the likes of the Catholic church. You, though, Troy-boy - you never had that power. Because you've NEVER convinced anyone (otherwise, your one-man site would be like all other forums on the Net - including our FSTDT 'cult' ;) - would be overflowing with people posting many times every day & would be ACTIVE. Not the empty wank-fest with you & your sockpuppets; not ONE single convert to your extreme form of right-wing Fundie Xtianity, based on that Eastern Fundy hack Crotchman Pee, who you love more than 'JAYZARSE!' himself. Frankly, taking the $cientology 'Personality Test' would be easier than that 'jumping through hoops' you call your forum's registration process! Which proves the superiority of FSTDT & this we're communicating on right now - no registration necessary! Just jump in & post! How about making your Biblocality forum as easy to post on?).

But that's what an enquiring, nay, a QUESTIONING mind is about - wanting to know EVERYTHING. And what's wrong with questioning everything? What's wrong with knowing everything? And of course, very soon we may indeed know everything when the LHC comes online & discovers the Higgs-Boson particle, and what happened before Planck Time? That's what it's like to be TRULY human. The quest for Knowledge. To think unfettered. And of course, that's what the clergy - including Troy-boy - truly fear. THINKING. Especially thinking for YOURSELF. Which can be summed up by this quote:

"Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible; thought is merciless to privilege, established intuititions, and comfortable habit. Thought looks into the pit of hell and is not afraid. Thought is great and swift and free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man."

-Bertrand Russell

Oh, and a little something for Troy-boy to chew on (if his one-dimensional mindset will allow him to understand it):

"Faith without doubt leads to moral arrogance, the eternal pratfall of the religiously convinced"

-Joe Klein, Time Magazine

Maybe that's what they refer to as 'Original Sin' - THINKING FOR YOURSELF.

old comment by a mind far far away

@ Truth: The only proof you have to offer is your bible. This is no proof at at, because it's not subjective. You say that there is no proof for the pagans having doctrines and beliefs that are repeated in christianity, because their beliefs are based on myths. So are christianity's. That's the whole problem with your "proofs". They are based solely on what the bible says, instead of what is available to us in reality. Which is what makes christianity a fantasy myth of fairy tales, nothing more. You can offer no proof of your beliefs outside the bible. There is no historical proof of the existence of jesus. Josephus, Pliny the Younger, Tacitus, and others all wrote after the fact. They were not around during the time jesus supposedly lived. your god is not logical, because he defies all the points of what logic is. A loving god is not logical due to evil, disease, and death. And no, I don't buy into the idea that sin is the cause of these things, for an all powerful and all knowing god would be able to effectively deal with these issues. Atheism cannot be proven false unless it can be proved that god exists, which it can't. Even a christian theologian said that "a god that can be proven to exist is no god at all." However, reincarnation, nirvana, and karma are all ideas that can easily be accepted on a scientific basis. However, your "proofs" are nothing more than mumbo-jumbo, that the average person would not be able to understand anyway. However, I have done a great deal of study in philosophy, and can not only understand what it's saying, but realize that it's unsound. Now, if I can't find any fault with christianity, then it wouldn't have made any sense for me to leave it. Now, you think your personal testimony of coming to christ "against all odds" should appeal to my emotions to return to christ. However, I risk losing everything by leaving christianity, most importantly, my wife and children. Hopefully, I can convince my wife that christianity is worthless, and not have to lose them. Again, you condemn me to hell, and that is fine. I cannot be condemning myself to a place that does not exist. Hell is the creation of sadistic theologians to scare people into believing in their god, or else. The Buddha taught love, respect, and kindness. He expected people to check out using any means available his teachings, to make sure that they understood he was being truthful. christianity does no such thing. You say you speak plainly about the truth. Not only do you not speak plainly, but it is about YOUR truth, not THE truth. Since you seem to think the reason I am still talking with you is that I have some sort of part left in me that wants to return to Christianity, this will be the last time I will speak with you, knowingly, anyway. I wish only to leave you with this thought: Everything in existence is composed, at their most basic level, of atoms. Atoms themselves have various particles in them, which only make up a small percentage of the space of the atom itself. So what takes up all that extra space when there are no protons, neutrons, or electrons in it? Nothing. It can't be air, because air is made up of elements that are composed of atoms. All existence, then, is primarly composed of nothingness. THIS is the essence of Nirvana.

old comment by Anon-e-moose

@Shadoboy (#775816)

His kind of twisted Christianity can be summed up by this late 19th Century newspaper cartoon:

[IMG]http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/9039/afundamentaldoctrine2lw2.jpg[/IMG]

It's fundies like Troy-boy who put the MENTAL in Fundamentalist. He clearly has some kind of neurological disorder that causes him to have this one-dimensional mindset, basically the mental equivalent of sticking his fingers in his ears & shouting 'LA-LA-LA! I CAN'T HEAR YOU! I'M RIGHT & YOU'RE WRONG!', insofar that he won't countenance any kind of differing thinking to his own, for fear of his fragile little worldview called 'Faith' collapsing. And this 'Holy Spirit' he claims to have speak to him? Voices in the head - clear proof of schizophrenia. And his brand of extreme right-wing fundy Christianity? Monomania (that, and the fact anyone wanting to vote in McCain & Palin can't be right in the head!).

Not listening to anyone else's ideas (whereas WE do); Listening to REASON, and having our way of thinking based on logic & intellect (instead of voices in the head). And we respecting those with a faith (such as you Shadoboy, Elphada, Now I see the light, my friend, et al), as those with such respect us who don't (instead of those who try to force their beliefs down our throats when they have NO right to). That's the difference between us & you, Troy-boy. But of course, in your twisted mindset, there's you, and the other 5,999,999,999 people in the world. But that's all right. Even in this 'Hell' which doesn't exist, at least it won't get lonely for us. And at least we'll be laughing with joy at the fact you won't be there. LAUGHING. Because what you come out with right now everywhere you infect yourself is a joke. Just like your religion. Right-wing Fundy Xtianity - the greatest practical joke ever played on humanity. Only some people didn't get the joke.

Your posting the Hitler pic is very relevant, Shadoboy, because Troy-boy's brand of extreme right-wing fundaMENTAList Christianity is so much like Nazism. Because those who follow such are stupid enough to do so (and woe betide anyone who DOESN'T, to them!). A relevant quote:

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it"

-Josef Goebbels

But then his bumboy, Hitler, was taken in completely by the lies in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", proven to be a fake time & again, mainly by the fact that this book from 1903 is a terrible & blatant plagiarisation of the previous novel from 1864, "Dialogue in Hell Between Machiavelli and Montesquieu" by Maurice Joly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dialogue_in_Hell_Between_Machiavelli_and_Montesquieu

Just goes to prove how the stupid can be made to believe anything (as with Hitler). Stupidity is born of ignorance. Which comes from the inability to think (least of all for yourself). But then, right-wing fundy Xtianity (especially Troy-boy's brand), is like Nazism - it does the thinking for you.

old comment by Anon-e-moose

Troy-boy simply isn't worth being listened to anymore. He expects us to accept what HE says, but will he listen to us? Will he accept any other way of thinking, other than his own? As proved here - no. So, if he won't listen to us, why should we reciprocate? After all, his so-called 'God' has already condemned us. To quote Troy-boy:

#329559

2007-Oct-10 07:42 PM

"Nobody is forcing you to accept Christ."

But that's what your 'God' is doing - forcing us to do so, or be eternally tortured. And therein lies the hypocrisy of Fundy Christianity, and it's adherents. And he wonders why no-one here has converted? And why should they?:

1- We don't like being FORCED to say, do, or THINK how others say we should.

2- Why should we accept the existence of a 'deity' who can't even SHOW himself?

3- There is NO God. Never has been, and never will be. And if you disagree with this point, that proves what a one-dimensional mindset you have. At least we're prepared to accept the existence of such a being, as long as he SHOWS himself. If he doesn't, then that proves there's no such thing.

Obama/Biden in 2008. The way things are going, it's over for that Repubican fossil & his evil fundy witch (who is another hypocrite; she promotes 'Family Values', and even penalises single mothers with cuts in payments to such, yet her own daughter gets knocked up! I blame the parents...). BTW:

[IMG]http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/7241/sarahpalinzg5.jpg[/IMG]

Here we see a large, ugly, slimy, hideous excuse for a lifeform that was lucky to have emerged out of the oceans, and deserves to die.

The other is a fish.

old comment by Anon-e-moose

Notice how Fundy 'Pro-Life' types only work where there's soft targets? I see they never flock to China where abortions are performed on a virtually industrial scale. The way I see it, they don't for TWO reasons:

1- They don't care for the Chinese.

2- If they protested as much in China as they did in America, they know they'd be arrested & jailed for 10 years. Thus not a 'soft target'.

Further proof of Xtian fundy hypocrisy. If you care about the 'murders' in China, go and protest there. If you don't, then you're a hypocrite. I see Sarah Palin doesn't either. Thus she's a hypocrite too. Just like all the fundy 'Pro-Lifers'. Speaking of that evil Fundy witch (who promotes abstinence to all other kids - but not her OWN - such is her hypocrisy; 'Do as I say, not as I do'), more of her own wrongdoing has been exposed - abusing her position as governor of Alaska, as well as her profligate personal spending (nearly $100,000 on clothes & hairdos) during this campaign, when so many Americans are having to cut back just to maintain the basics during this recession. When she could have made do with what she had, to demonstrate prudence, thus leading by example. Thus another nail in the campaign coffin of that evil witch & her fossil:

[IMG]http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/3109/1223311828423yv5.jpg[/IMG]

BTW, Troy-boy, I'll make you a deal - If McCain is elected, I'll do what you say & become a Christian. But if Obama becomes president, then you have to become an Atheist like me. After all, if 'Faith' can move mountains, then I'm sure your 'Faith' can ensure that fossil gets to the White House. So, how about it? You CAN'T possibly lose, right?

Right?

old comment by Anon-e-moose

@Michael, #780772

Troy-boy DARES to accuse us of misquoting. I've read the Bible, and like I say, it reinforces the quote by Isaac Asimov:

'Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for Atheism ever conceived.'

In the Christian Bible, Jesus is quoted as saying "all things are possible to God" - therefore the assumption is that logic doesn't constrain the Christian God.

Very convenient. Thus placing the whole Christian religion beyond analysis.

Beyond Logical anaylsis - yes. However...

Any Christian who believes that God does not obey logic is a mystic. And mysticism is clearly frowned upon in the Bible (Exodus 22:18 : Thou shall not suffer a witch to live). Thus Christians are a contradiction to their own religion, and therefore have no right to exist, like witches (according to the Bible's own aforementioned rule). And if Christians aren't allowed to exist because of this rule, then what was the point of creating humans to believe in him? Quite a paradox. But, to acknowledge they AREN'T mystics, Christians must accept that even God must obey the laws of logic; if so, then God isn't omnipotent, thus he isn't all-powerful, therefore he isn't God, ergo he doesn't exist.

QED.

Another thought: 'all things are possible to God'. Well, it seems there's one thing we mere mortals (including even Troy-boy himself, unfortunately!) can do that even God himself CAN'T:

Exist.

old comment by Anon-e-moose

@The Lies Will Enslave You (aka Troy-boy) #781187

"you are getting drunk, partying and taking drugs"

You overassume, in thinking I drink, smoke & take drugs, therefore you commit the sin of bearing false witness. Because I DON'T. (never smoked & taken drugs in my life; rarely drank alcohol*, and certainly don't now, with this recession). Plus you further commit the sin of lying by assuming this place is called 'For Satan The Demonic Thinkers' - this is Fundies Say The Darndest Things, to expose freaks like you for the dickheads you are, by quoting the stupid things you say & think, thus condemning you out of your own mouths. As Christopher has proved time & again here - you're a THRICE-DAMNED LIAR! So why should we trust anything said by a liar like you?

[IMG]http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/731/openletterdg5.gif[/IMG]

*- Timothy 5:23 : 'Do not still drink water, but take a little wine for thy stomach's sake' (and occasional drinking of alcohol has been medically proven to be beneficial)

old comment by Anon-e-moose

@#782056

Exactly. If he was content in his beliefs, he'd just get on with his life (if he has one!). Notice he hasn't gotten onto that plane to China to protest against abortions carried out there? Proof he's a hypocrite Fundy 'Pro-Lifer'.

If he (& they) thinks abortion is SO bad, fine. Ban it EVERYWHERE. I'd even agree to it (and I'm ULTRA-Pro-Choice!)- but on ONE condition. ALL the unwanted babies in the world have to be looked after by every single person who is 'Pro-Life'. And they're shared equally between them. Including Catholics, especially all their clergy (nuns, monks, priests, Monsignors, Bishops, Archbishops, Cardinals, even the Pope himself - and not forgetting the Vatican's Swiss Guards!). And especially ALL Right-wing Fundy Christians including Troy-boy himself. And they must do so with NO other help from anyone else - and no outside financial help either. And if just one of them complains in any way, shape or form, then the whole deal's off - and abortion is made legal worldwide in perpetuity (with abortions made compulsory amongst 'Pro-Lifers').

BTW, Troy-boy - no reply to my US Election challenge (If McCain wins, I agree to become a Christian, but if Obama wins, Troy-boy has to agree to be an Atheist)? And I thought you were a gambling man? (you love to go to those casinos SO much!). What's the matter? Your 'Faith' not sufficient to ensure that fossil & his evil Fundy witch wins? Isn't 'Faith' supposed to move mountains? Or are you a COWARD? Just as with your so-called 'God' proving his existence as stated previously, I'm calling your bluff. Put up or shut up.

Oh, I'm gonna enjoy McCain conceding to Obama next month. Oh, how the sight of the latter swearing the oath & made president early next year will make you have an aneurysm, eh? USA will have the Change it deserves (hopefully by a landslide!). Being Left-wing is SUPERIOR.

old comment by Anon-e-moose

@The Lies Will Enslave You #781187

"I feel that the Holy Spirit is now leading me away from further discussions here"

Or maybe that 'Holy Spirit' (aka Troy-boy's voices in his head) gave him advance warning of the final nail in the coffin of his failure to convert anyone (least of all here at FSTDT) is because of this VERY interesting little tidbit of Scripture:

http://eighteenmaldives.blogspot.com/2007/09/conversion-obsession.html

The bible supports Paedophilic actions!

Numbers 31:17-18 (New International Version)
Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

Also see the following verses
Numbers 31:17-18, Numbers 31:35-40,Numbers 31:17-18, Numbers 31:35-40

"....The Tannaïtic Midrash Sifre to Numbers in §157 comments on the above quoted commandment of MOSES to kill the Midianite women as well as the male children...."

"....According to the Tannaïte Rabbis, MOSES therefore had ordered the Israelites to kill all women older than three years and a day, because they were "suitable for having sexual relations." [138]...."

"Said Rabbi Joseph, "Come and take note: A girl three years and one day old is betrothed by intercourse....."

"A girl three years and one day old is betrothed by intercourse. "A girl three years
old may be betrothed through an act of sexual intercourse," the words of R. Meir. And sages say, "Three years and one day old."....."

"They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man........Now kill all the boys [innocent kids]. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
(Numbers 31:7,17-18)"

God condones paedophilia. He even ORDERS such evil acts to be committed. Thus God is a paedophile. Therefore conclusive proof that God is evil, ergo he doesn't exist.

QED.

How's it feel worshipping the spiritual equivalent of Gary Glitter eh, Troy-Boy? (after all, Jesus IS God - your words!) If you don't show your sorry arse here again, it's because you (and your so-called 'God') are COWARDS, for not taking up my previous challenge (nor my electoral challenge as stated above). And because your 'God' DOESN'T EXIST. And yes, we call Jesus a Liar - and EVIL, because (as scripture proves) he's a PAEDO. And if he's evil, he's a contradiction to himself, thus he's a LIAR to himself (and the population of this planet as a whole), ergo he DOESN'T EXIST.

QED.

old comment by Anon-e-moose

I knew you'd come back, Troy-boy, 'A Friend' (of himself), 'The Lies Shall Enslave You' or whatever you call yourself. What's the matter? Your sockpuppets not enough at your one-man yawn-fest of a forum?

Anyhoo, time for you to take up my previous challenge: If the fossil McCain & his evil fundy witch Palin wins the election, I agree to become a Christian. But If Obama & Biden wins, then you have to agree to become an Atheist. You're a gambling man (you love going to those casinos SO much!). Besides, your 'Faith' can move mountains, right? So your beloved Repubicans are GUARANTEED to win, right?

Right?

Or are you too scared to take my challenge? If so, that proves you're a COWARD, and your so-called 'Faith' ain't worth the sweat off my bollocks. And thus your so-called 'God' FAILS. And why?

BECAUSE HE DOESN'T EXIST.

Oh, and word salad isn't proof, no matter how many links to your yawn-fest of a site you post. You know the drill. 'God' appears to the whole world in PHYSICAL form. That's the ONLY way we'll accept the existence of such a being.

old comment by Clown

That is exactly my point. Almost all of the evidences were written long after the last eyewitness died. And that bothers me. Unfortunately, English is not my mother tongue, so I can't give you many referencies about "Nikejski sabor", so I ask you to be patient. Meanwhile...
Jesus allowed for his apostles to see and touch him, to prove that he is alive. Why wouldn't he do the same to anyone else today? Why wouldn't he answer prayers and heal amputees and diseases in this world?
Also, if I were Jesus, I would have done miracles that would leave tangible traces for future generations, like, move a mountain or dry the lake, something like that. I'll also give you my email, just in case you want to help me strenghten my faith, if you want.

old comment by Anon-e-moose

@What Really Is The Truth? Not the Bible

I see you've wriggled out of my challenge. Thus you're a COWARD (and thus proving that God DOESN'T exist). Therefore you have NO right to be listened to in the same way you expect people to listen to YOU. So much for 'Faith'. Because you know that Obama's going to WIN, and pulverise that fossil & his evil fundy witch into the ground with a massive landslide. How that's gonna GALL you. And I'm GLAD. USA is gonna get the change it deserves. Yep, Obama's gonna become the most powerful man on the planet! Read THAT & weep, you inferior fundy cuntbag, Troy-boy. Here we see the fossil McCain getting some training in for gaining favour with President Obama:

[IMG]http://img381.imageshack.us/img381/1950/kissassmccainbd0.jpg[/IMG]

You too, Sarah, you evil, subhuman fundy witch! Pucker up!

Oh, and the Bible provides as much proof of the existence of 'God' as going into your wardrobe, and emerging out the other side into another world and meeting a talking lion, because a book by CS Lewis says so. Word salad doth NOT constitute PROOF. Hard, solid PHYSICAL evidence does, re. my challenge: 'God' to appear to the world in physical form. And the onus to prove such exists is on YOU, Troy-boy. Not US. Now do so without recourse to that filthy book of LIES, nor philosophical word salad, nor even your precious security blankie of 'Faith' & 'Belief'.

IF YOU CAN.

old comment by Clown

I guess that you are right... I have a cousin, his age now isn't important, but he was 30 when I was born. Doctors put me in an incubator by mistake, they thought I have a hepatitis,and he saved me else I would have died from burns. They healed in a week...

He and his few friends healed thousands of sick people from all kinds of diseases, returned the vision to the blind, made deaf hear again... He also never got married.

When I was a little we were visiting him more often. He always made some sort of trick to us. He would wave his hand over the glass of water and it would have turned into orange or cherry juice. There's a stream near the village and I have seen him walk on the water a dozen times but he never claimed that he is the Messiah, or the King of heaven.
My father, who's a good friend with him, says that he has a round scar below his chest, and that he was born with it. But he looks nothing like Jesus from the pictures. He has black hair and black beard, and a big mold on his brow and always wears gloves and long white shirts. Well, I guess I won't recognize Jesus if I see him, but I'm pretty sure it isn't him.

old comment by Clown's sister

Clown is mocking you, which I find to be very wrong thing to do, even if he' an atheist, he shouldn't mock true believers. Of course our cousin is not the Jesus! He changed the water into juice with "instant juice" powder, which impressed us when we were three or four, until we learned how to do it ourselves. And the Clown and I learned the trick to walk on water sooner than you think. Clue: winter+shallow stream=ice= walking on the (frozen) water.
But I've gone one step further in "miracle performing" than my bro. You see, our cousin is a doctor, and his friends are doctors as well. I was so impressed with his abillities that I decided to study medicine.
And, the scar is from apendectomy when he was three years old.

old comment by Clown

At least I'll be in a good company. Kings, mockers, rich man, lustful woman... I guess that climate in Heaven is better, but who wants to hang with beggars, poor and sorrowful, and saints? Bored to death... :)

As for your proof, I can. There is no reason to believe that Christian God is the god that created Earth, and not Hindu or Thor. There is also no reason to think that he was the only deity that created the Universe. And how you can explain that perfect being as your god created universe so flawed and full of mistakes? Add to that that the humans were made on God's own image, how can it be that perfect being as God made something imperfect as humans?

old comment by Anon-e-moose

@What Really Are The LIES In The Bible

#794488 2008-Nov-04 04:46 PM

"See you next year"

That was a short year, eh, Troy-boy (a.k.a. Fundy LIAR) More proof you're a LIAR. But then, that's LIARS for you (as proved by Christopher time & again in this thread)- once Troy-boy starts, he can't stop!

I'm just surprised you're even capable of posting right now, and your head hasn't exploded in fundy rage at the fact Obama has been elected President?! BTW, I guess this is why you weasled your way out of my challenge, because you knew that if you were man (?!) enough to do so, you'd have to start reading Dawkins' "The God Delusion", and renaming your site 'Atheistcality', and banning anyone who was remotely fundytarded. But I guess this conclusively proves what a COWARD you really are (after all, I'd agreed to become a Christian if McCain had won). And thus why should we accept anything said by a coward - and a proven LIAR?. Therefore everything you say (especially here on FSTDT) is LIES. And because you're incapable of proving that a 'God' exists without resorting to that evil book of LIES you call the Bible, or your verbal diarrhoea (& the BS links to your BS factory you call a site), or even your delusional 'Faith' (which has NO right to be accepted by us; it's just more of your LIES), that's even more proof you're a LIAR. As a comedian once said, 'If God is the most powerful being in the universe, why does he have a bunch of bozos to do his P.R.?'. Which reinforces what I've said previously: if this 'God' wants people to accept his existence, all he has to do is SHOW himself, in physical form (and your BS reply 'He doesn't do parlour tricks' is unacceptable).

You say that a 'God' exists. Remember: The burden of proof is on YOU. And word salad, nor philosophical BS doth not constitute PROOF. Just ask yourself: WHY can't he (and NOT Jesus; he doesn't count) appear to everyone in the world? If you have the slightest shred of logic, intelligence and ability to question, you'll come up with the ONLY answer:

Because 'God' DOESN'T EXIST.

But then, you won't ask that question. Because your precious 'Faith' would be utterly destroyed. And mayhaps even your sanity, because it's so in thrall to this whole creaky facade called 'Religious Belief'. The biggest con-trick ever pulled on humanity. And you got suckered into it.

'A sucker is born every minute'

-P.T. Barnum

Something else to consider, Troy-boy, 'What Really Are The LIES In The Bible', 'The Lies Shall Enslave You', whatever you're calling yourself these days, you subhuman schizophrenic fundy freak (how's your sockpuppets on your BS site?! And those voices in your head you call the 'Holy Spirit'? Three Words: Joan Of Arc):

image

old comment by Clown

Guess what, sweetheart? They thought the same way in the year of 999. Nothing happened.
No one is born sinful. If you just looked at the newborn baby, you would have realised that by now. There is no sin in children, same as there is no sin in kittens or puppies. Sin is human construct. Children that never meet religion are much happier and free, and grow up fine. They become moral persons and productive members of society, but not from the fear of divine punishment, but because of the good human nature. Everybody wants to belong, to be loved. Normal people search for those things in the real world. Religious fanatics look for it in the imaginary world.
And, guess what? Your logic fails. If I have eternity at my disposal, why should I bother to make this world a better place? Why should I obey any rules? And here's why.
Everybody fears death. It's natural thing. Every human instinct is turned towards survival. And, yet, we all have to die once. Your existence will end, and you won't be there anymore. That's a fact.
And once when you realise that fact, the fact that this time on Earth is everything you are going to get, you suddenly want to spend every day the best way you can. You want to be remembered, to leave a legacy behind you, a legacy of a better world. And that, my friend, is the power of truth. Religion is the story you tell the child when it is afraid of natural thing called death. It's there to mask the truth. And here it is: Everything that lives, dies. Everything that dies, fears death. The longer you live, the longer you fear.
Now, stop being coward and start to live a good life, without braking the other peoples right to do the same.

old comment by Anon-e-moose

Talks a lot, but doesn't say much does he, this LIAR 'What Really Are The LIES About The Bible', a.k.a. Troy-boy. More philosophical word salad, more BS links from his BS factory of a site. More LIES. But no actual, PHYSICAL proof.

But then, LIARS have no right to be listened to. Consider this: Satan is the ultimate deceiver - if such a being exists, but go along with me for a while - and thus is the king of LIARS. Surely this means Troy-boy is Satan?! He spews out LIES for a living! He preaches HATE (my friend who's a Christian, never speaks, acts or THINKS in the same way as Troy-boy does), because if he truly followed Jesus's teachings of 'Love your fellow man', he wouldn't act - and certainly not speak - the way he does. He's even been deceived into his twisted form of Christianity by believing everything said by Watchman Nee (a.k.a. Crotchman Pee), which has been used by a number of cults

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/n01.html

Especially the 'Children of God'

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/f/f38.html

Which makes his doctrine extremely dangerous (just look at how it's warped ol' Troy-boy & his way of thinking at his s(h)ite (http://www.biblocality.com).

Especially the whole 'Rapture' BS, invented in the mid-19th Century (BTW, Christians should realise that promoting this doctrine is adding to the Bible, which is heresy. You're a HERETIC, Troy-boy!!). 'Rapture'? More like CRAPTURE. Along with all the BS in the Bible.

And like the Bible, why should we accept the LIES of a fundy freak like YOU?

old comment by Anon-e-moose

What Really Are The Lies Of The Bible? #800772

"for you are here trying to rationalize yourself"

Hello, Mr Pot, meet Mr. Kettle. If you weren't trying to rationalise YOURSELF, you'd just go back to your pathetic little webs(h)ite and post your empty platitudes to your sockpuppets. I guess it gets so lonely at Wibblocality that you have to try and force your LIES down the throats of people here who (like me) are merely here to have fun taking the piss out of the stupid things stupid fundies like you say. Take that broomhandle out of your arse and LIGHTEN UP!! At least the Americans here have a sense of irony, unlike the religious freaks (& others) there (and in Canada, it seems, as proved by YOU). Oh, but having some concept of irony (& thus a sense of humour) involves having a healthy sense of cynicism, which comes from the ability to QUESTION things - even religious belief. You may have 'seen the light', but once that happened, it seems you had your irony & humour surgically removed. You can make jokes about we Atheists, but at least we laugh thhem off - but make jokes about you fundies & your 'God' and you become more rabid than a bunch of mullahs at a "Satanic Verses" book-burning!

"You can be sure Jesus is going to return"

O RLY? You sound SO sure that you know, so tell me Mr Kowitall, if you know for SURE, tell me the exact year, the exact month, the exact day, the exact hour, the exact minute, the exact second of when - indeed, the exact map co-ordinates of where - he's gonna return? What's that? The Bible doesn't give that exact, precise information? Well, if it doesn't tell you exactly when & where he'll return, how do you know IF he's gonna return?! And that's the problem with fundy Xtian belief, and the Bible it's based on - because it's so vague. (at least a science book gives exact information using diagrams, formulae & equations) In fact SO vague, as to deceive the reader. Where's the detailed diagrams, formulae & equations in the Bible describing HOW 'God' created this universe, this planet & all the life on it? Indeed, where's the detailed diagrams (at least there's Gray's Anatomy etc describing human physiology), formulae & equations describing 'God'? Nothing. Nada. Nowt. Bugger All. BIG FAT ZERO.

The vagueness of the Bible is so much, it deceives those stupid enough to be suckered into it. And you've been suckered BIG TIME.

I actually like it how I haven't been deceived by that filthy book of LIES. It proves that you're stupid to have been, and I'm not. *smug*

"I actually like it how God doesn't cater to your flesh"

But I bet God would if such a deity looked like this:

image

I'd certainly believe in a God who was as HOT as this. She could cater to MY flesh anytime!! :3 :9

old comment by Anon-e-moose

@Unimportant Information (a.k.a. What Really Are The LIES Of Troy Brooks) #802736

I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the awesomeness of Barack Obama:

image

Sucks to be you, Repubicans, right-wingers, racists, and fundies.

"How do I know God loves you? Because He created you."

And I thought I was created by my father (a gas appliance installer & meter reader) and my mother (a cook at an RAF pilot training station in WWII, later a barmaid, then a school cleaner) created me by them marrying and having sex, then my mother giving birth to me 9 months later? That's news to me . But of course you're a LIAR, so everything you say is LIES. And LIES have no right to be believed because they have no hard, solid EVIDENCE to back them up. BTW, Revelations was added a few centuries later to the Bible, as a way of scaring the uneducated peons into believing. As you know, adding to the Bible is heresy, so all those involved with writing Revelations are heretics. People realise that now, and aren't afraid anymore. But then, why should we be afraid of a load of propaganda? Besides, saying that someone else created me when two others actually did is a LIE, and remember the 9th Commandment: 'Thou shalt not bear false witness'. That's a sin, and being a sinner means you're just a bad guy going to Hell.

"The Bible is so specific, the prophecies are so exacting, you can't get any more specific"

Exact year, exact month, exact day, exact hour, exact minute, exact second & exact map co-ordinates of Jesus's return, or GTFO. And a Bible with exact, precise details of how 'God' created the universe, this world & the life on it, with diagrams, equations & formulae in Genesis, or be proved to be the LYING fraud you are & that evil book of LIES exposed as the load of bollocks it is.

"athiest religious freak"

Oxymoron, much? Or just a moron? That's like saying 'Jewish Nazi' An Atheist, by definition, can't be a freak. Because he or she is educated, self-thinking, and logical enough to realise that ALL religions are bullshit. Especially your twisted brand of right-wing Xtian fundyism.

@Christopher

Well, as we know - and you've proved time & again - Troy-boy's a LIAR. What do you bet he comes back? After all, it gets so lonely on Wibbleocality with only him, those unfortunate to join that webs(h)ite who he bans immediately, and his sockpuppets & the voices in his head called the 'Holy Spirit'. Poor thing.

old comment by Fearless Sam

Hey What Really Is The Truth, what the hell is with your bullshit about Hinduism not being real? Reincarnation is NOT false, and it does deal with sin in a proper and appropriate fashion

You see, there's this small thing called Karma. You're a Christian fundie, so I'll assume you don't know what it is. Karma is a concept wherein one's actions in a current life affect your situation in another life - basically, what goes around comes around. You do good in this life, you will be rewarded in the next life. For example, in this life you have more virtue than sin - your next life might provide you with better opportunities for education and self-advancement or a better socio-economic level. This works the other way around too - you fuck up too many times, and you might come back as a lower form of life such as an insect or a dog. Oh, and the reincarnation thing; it's not endless. If you have sufficient (and i mean enormous) virtue you may not come back at all, and will probably end up in "heaven" (I use this term for the lack of a better word). You do not go through reincarnations to get rid of sin, reincarnation gives you a chance to pick yourself up and balance out the karmic scales in your favour.

There is no shutting down the body to deal with pain and suffering. You mistake meditation for this. Meditation is way to cleanse the body and mind so that you are ready to face the world before in a calm, enlightened and virtuous manner. I suggest you consult with an actual Indian before making blind guesses about a religion that is not only significantly older than yours but is also far superior to yours in application to the real world. I mean, if you want to dedicate your entire life to a supposed "heaven" and let the world pass you by, but do not denigrate or belittle other religions that are infinately more progressive and beneficial to the real world.

One more thing; "the Hindu creator" you condescendingly referred to earlier, is called Brahma. He is one aspect of the Supreme Being which created our world. He also preserves his creations and destroys that which is harmful to his creation. As to proof of his existence, how many books do you have to prove your false god's existence? Just the one right? Well I can point to four epic books that not only prove the Supreme Being's existence but describe literally hundreds of interventions in the world. In addition I can also point out hundreds of smaller, auxiliary (if you will) texts that do exactly the same thing. I suggest you read the Mahabharata, the Ramayana, the Vedas and the Puranas.

I am more than happy to belong to a religion which provides a satisfying world view of good and bad, and is extremely easy to reconcile with current scientific thinking. Yeah, my god actually conforms to real, scientific evidence.

old comment by TehCelt

First off, hats off to the makers of this site for providing me with such side busting humor that it makes me wonder why I even bother with TV anymore. Second if I sound somewhat like a fast talking cynic it's because I've watched far too much Zero Punctuation this morning and have been reading this site and am ripe to tear into this fundy like a crackhead chimp tearing up a banana.

I must say I find it highly amusing that this bright bulb would lump a web site that's really made for pure entertainment at fundies expense into the same category as the Waco Texas Incident. I also find it amusing that despite with every advance of modern technology our little dim wit here is still clinging to the a bronze age geocentric belief, where some sky daddy farted us into existence for the express purpose of stroking his fragile ego so we can keep him from nuking us into oblivion. Naturally this seems to fail quite excessively in his little book where he had a thing for zapping away various things of various sizes. Personally I find his promise to not drown the entire planet after the flood quickly broken when he blasts a guy for practicing the withdrawal method and then later on by nuking a couple of cities. As well as killing off first born kids and just being an overall dick. I think the real promise was "I promise to not kill you all at the same time, and instead only kill the one's who don't make me feel warm and fuzzy inside."

Seriously if a deity needs that much reassurance then we really need to reconsider following him because it leaves me feeling like we're expected to follow an emo kid with his finger hovering over the big red button. But aside from that, I love this site and am still patiently waiting for a pagan to say a darndest thing but odds are that won't happen because even most of us know we're believing in something that's obsolete bullshit and will end up like everyone else, dead.

But in regards to our little fundy here, you want some evidence as to why at least I don't believe in your sky daddy? Well here you go, he's emo, egotistical, a genocidal pain in the ass, and every time someone decides to kill someone else, or discriminate or anything else in that is typically bad and stupid their favorite thing to do is quote the bible as if it's some sort of authority on being a bigoted dick, which it is. And naturally all of your gods followers(I.E. you)will cover it up the best you can with bullshit explanations such as it's just the people doing it(who he created in his own image mind you, making them part of his twisted mind)despite better instructions which I have yet to find on the days when I can actually stay awake past genesis because it's so god awfully boring and void of creativity that my imagination throws in the death scenes of the movie Starship Troopers just to liven it up a little! And naturally there's the simple lack of evidence for your sky daddy to begin with, just like there's a sever lack of evidence for my gods too, to deal with the simple fact we won't see eye to eye on any of this and get over your self and realize one mans god is another mans joke.

Anyone know any good pagan jokes?

And here's the zero punctuation that opens with the real root problem of christianity

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/213-Too-Human

old comment by Anon-e-moose

@Fearless Guy.

Unfortunately, 'Infidel Guy' = Troy Brooks.

Yep, the LIAR is back. Whassamatter, Troy-boy? Wibbleocality got too boring for you, what with the poor sods who you banned, and only your sockpuppets & the voices in your head for company? The fact you've had no choice but to return to FSTDT is further proof of your LIES:

What Really Are The Lies Of Troy-boy? #794488 2008-Nov-04 04:46 PM

"I get real bored of such mindless bantor at FSTDT which does not respond to the points. See you next year"

What Really Are The Lies Of Troy-boy? #802858 2008-Nov-07 08:58 PM

"Well that does it for me. I can answer your questions for eternity, but why waste my time with you?"

"if I do hear from you, it will be when you register at Biblocality Forums. Amen."

You're a hypocrite & a sinner. As is your 'God', and even your so-called 'Jesus' is a LIAR too. As proved in the other thread mentioned here - him cursing the fig tree = spite. And turning over the tables of the moneychangers in the temple = anger (a DEADLY sin!). Thus Jesus IS a sinner, thus a LIAR, therefore he's a contradiction to himself, and thus he DOESN'T EXIST, therefore your theory (and thus your 'Faith') is destroyed.

QED.

old comment by Anon-e-moose

@Infidel Guy a.k.a. Troy Brooks the LIAR

What matters is if you can't stop being a LIAR, you are going to Hell. But then, your bum-boy Jesus is a LIAR for being a SINNER (cursing the fig tree, thus showing spite), and turning over the tables of the moneylenders in the temple (displaying anger, a grievous, DEADLY sin!), and therefore so is your 'God'. You'll have a great time with your bum-chums there in HELL!

Matthew 7:15: Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

22: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

old comment by Anon-e-moose

@Insincere (a.k.a. Troy the LIAR)

I don't accept the existence of a being who DOESN'T EXIST. Besides, if your 'Jesus' wants me to accept his existence, he knows the drill (as stated previously). But we all know that won't happen, because as proved here in FSTDT, Jesus DOESN'T EXIST. A: Because he's a mythical entity with no physical proof he existed (how more 'Puff the Magic Dragon' can you get?!). And B: Because he's a SINNER - he cursed the fig tree, displaying Spite, and turned over the tables of the moneylenders in the temple, thus showing Anger (a DEADLY sin!). Thus making a LIAR of himself, and everyone who believes in that load of superstitious bollocks (yep, Troy-boy - he's LIED to YOU!). And if these instances prove he's sinned, (and thus shown he's a LIAR; it's there in the Bible, in black & white!), this means he's a contradiction to himself, ergo he DOESN'T EXIST.

QED.

And now you know why I don't 'believe' in a 'Jesus'. Because why should I waste mental effort in accepting someone who DOESN'T EXIST?

'Faith'? It's a load of BOLLOCKS. 'Faith' is the ultimate delusion. And only those with psychological problems suffer from delusions. How's those voices in the head you call the 'Holy Spirit'*, Troy-boy? That, and 'Faith' are further proof you're LYING to yourself.

*- Maybe he should have a nickname: 'Troy of Arc'

old comment by Sincere

Any true religion would tell you that sin leads to death and the second death which is hell, that man who caused his own problem can't solve his problem and needs His Creator to solve His problem if you are willing to accept His solution which is the perfect sacrifice for your sins.

Since the universe can't cause itself, why have faith that it does, with nothing to support your belief? Therefore, believe there is an uncreated Creator who deals effectively with your sin problem.

99+% of even skeptical scholars accept Jesus walked the earth, because of the evidence from Christian and non-Christian sources, so why do you go against them in denying Jesus was a person who walked the earth?

old comment by Anon-e-moose

@Insincere,

I'm sure you'll agree, that Christians (including you) have the right to worship & believe without threats, persecution, intimidation & repercussions from others. It's the civilised thing to do in free, democratic countries after all. No government, nor any greater power has the right to say you CAN'T. Because for them to do so would make them evil tyrants who forfeit any authority, and thus any rights to said authority over you. After all, if a brutal parent beats and abuses their child (even abuses them psychologically), merely for the crime of being there, that makes them tyrannical, and they forfeit all authority & rights to that child (and is taken away, becoming a ward of court, protecting them from said abuse). Just as the legal system & welfare organisation protects children from persecution, a country's police & defence forces exist to protect it's citizens from harm, so they can live free to go about their lawful business & interests, in a free, democratic country. Right?

old comment by SteelyDanorak

@ Sincere

"since every religion contradicts each other, there can only be one that is correct".

a] This doesn't follow. It could also be that they're ALL wrong. Jehovah's Witnesses use the same argument.

b] Even if there is one, and only one, "correct" religion, it can't be yours. It relies on a form of philosophical reasoning that got rubbished a couple of centuries ago; and on the vain attempt to protect the Bible from rational analysis, like it's a divine rather than a human artefact, or rather a collection of human artefacts of varying quality and intrinsic value.

c] Religions aren't about propositions but values. If we talked about those we'd find a lot of common ground between Christians of all persuasions, other faiths, and atheists. Fundies annoy me because they concentrate on such trivial matters as whether Jesus' tomb was empty or not. Even if it was, how does that help us combat global warming?

old comment by Anon-e-moose

@Caretaker

"Moosey"?! You're too kind. *blushy-blushy* That's the first time anyone's given me a cute nickname (Note to self: Must avoid Wasilla, Alaska. The evil fundy witch Sarah Failin's gonna be plenty pissed after Obama's win!).

Troy-boy's a bad man who's going to Hell for all his lying (along with his bumboy Jesus - he's gonna burn in Hell too, for being a sinner; cursing the fig tree [Spite] & turning over the moneylenders' tables in the temple [Anger - a DEADLY sin!]- and by his own admission, Jesus is God, ergo God's gonna burn in Hell too. QED.) as shown here. So yes, that thought does reassure me greatly.

And look who's back. The LIAR who specialises in talking complete bollocks. Your sockpuppets & your voices in your head not enough for you? There there, you keep a tight grip on that precious security blankie of 'Faith'. Poor diddums.

Anyhoo, I'm off to check out & rip the piss out of the latest quotes by fundies. BCNU! =^_^=

old comment by Anon-e-moose

@Caretaker

Heh, I'd rather go to New York or Chicago. It may get cold (especially at this time of the year), but at least the welcome is warm (& the food HOT)- and it's unlikely you'll see any fundies around. Too much cynicism & intelligence for those subhumans to thrive there.

@Insincere

image

Frankly, I'd rather have what Subaru Nakajima (from Nanoha StrikerS) is having than your stale copypasta. Indeed, you even resort to incorporating copysalad into such (with all the irrelevant & meaningless word salad), making what you say extremely unpalatable. It may look delicious to you, but I'm not eating it.

Stop repeating yourself. You're like a clanging bell. And stop shutting your mind down to logic & common sense. Fundies like you possess none.

old comment by Anon-e-moose

@[.........] (Troy-boy's too scared, or too stupid to use a name now. Do you think he realises he's losing the battle against more intelligent people, so he has to resort to anonymously posted copypasta?!)

Ah, more copysalad. Again, I'm not eating it. And why should I? Because the Bible is mentally & intellectually poisonous. A cancer. A filthy canker, full of the vile pus of contradiction. And TOO many contradictions (& thus LIES) to make it credible in any way. As proved via here:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html

Read 'em & weep.

And if the whole foundation of Christian belief is so riddled with the AIDS of contradictions (and therefore LIES), why should we allow ourselves to be infected by it? And if these contradictions prove the Bible is nothing but LIES, and the Bible is the 'Word of God', then 'God' himself is a proven LIAR, thus a contradiction to himself, ergo he DOESN'T EXIST.

QED.

Your move, chuckles.

And you wonder why you have no friends, Troy-boy?

old comment by Caretaker

Troy, darling, since you wouldn't go see Moosey's proofs, I thought to show you a mere few.

Beware, Troy Brooks, for these do not serve your theories!!111lene!!/

--------------

God good to all, or just a few?

PSA 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.

JER 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

War or Peace?
EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

ROM 15:33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.

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Who is the father of Joseph?
MAT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

LUK 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Who was at the Empty Tomb? Is it:
MAT 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

MAR 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

JOH 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

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Is Jesus equal to or lesser than?
JOH 10:30 I and my Father are one.

JOH 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

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Which first--beasts or man?
GEN 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

GEN 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

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The number of beasts in the ark
GEN 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

GEN 7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, GEN 7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

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How many stalls and horsemen?
1KI 4:26 And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen.

2CH 9:25 And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen; whom he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem.

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Is it folly to be wise or not?
PRO 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

ECC 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

1CO 1:19: "For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."

old comment by A Friend(i hijacked troy's original user name)

Suck it troy. All you have is faith. Now gtfo my interwebz. I own you bitch. I ran you off the other threads and I'll run you off this one too. Btw no one reads any of your bullshit proof. Give it up already you fucking loon. So you believe in jesus christ and a bunch of other shit. So fucking what. Your not getting through to any of us and your wasting your damn time. Go preach to people who give a rats ass about what you actually have to say. If you want to call it a draw and leave this thread on good terms then simply reply with a smiley. :)
If you want to continue being a hard headed douchebag then I will continue to troll you. Do the right thing man.

old comment by Anon-e-moose

@Poof Is Where It's At

Try and address the points here:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html

Don't just shut YOUR mind down. You say the Bible is the Word of God. The INERRANT word of God. The above link proves otherwise. So go ahead. Click it. What's stopping you? If your 'Faith' is SO solid, your 'Faith', based on the Word of God that is SO perfect, so FLAWLESS, so INERRANT, and cannot be contradicted, then it certainly can't be harmed by reading that web page. You can even contest and claim that they are 'out of context'*, and some merely 'metaphorical'*, and 'parables'* that are just fictional stories. So go on.

DO IT FAGGOT.

*- But then, you'd be openly admitting that the Bible isn't the LITERAL Word of God, and mustn't be taken LITERALLY, word for word, letter for letter, and thus cannot be obeyed. Thus admitting the Bible is FLAWED. Therefore, God is FLAWED & IMPERFECT and thus is a contradiction to himself, ergo HE DOESN'T EXIST.

QED.

old comment by Anon-e-moose

Can't even put down a sockpuppet name, and reduced to copypasta-ing eh, Troy-boy? Especially when confronted by ALL those juicy contradictions proving your so-called Bible is a load of bollocks from start to finish, eh? You can't compete against our indestructible defences of FACT (when faced with that link I provided, which you clearly haven't clicked & read, otherwise you'd have commented on such) & our armour-piercing rounds of LOGIC. You know you can't possibly win against our arguments, otherwise you wouldn't resort to copypasta. You know you've lost. Just admit it.

Your final test: If 'Faith' can move mountains, and prayer can do anything, especially when backed up with the irresistible force of 'Faith', then here's something simple. Just pray for me to 'See The Light', and become a Christian like you. Simple, eh? Can't possibly FAIL, eh?

old comment by Anon-e-moose

@Troy-boy

Still here (& not joined Wibbleocality), still Atheist. I guess my challenge to you to pray for me to 'See The Light' hasn't succeeded. But I guess this proves that...

NOTHING FAILS LIKE PRAYER.

Oh, and BTW, ladies & germs of FSTDT - I'VE GOT HIM! How?

Recently, as you know, he's been copypasta-ing his load of bollocks, in an attempt to get us to convert - I've found a a flaw. And a VERY serious flaw too. In the first sentence of said copypasta, he says:

"the uncreated Creator intelligently designed".

So much for the 'Uncreated Creator', if he's been 'Intelligently Designed', eh?! And if he was intelligently designed, then that means there's a being superior to him, who created God. Now, if your reasoning in what you've come up with to try to convert us has been carefully thought out, then you've condemned yourself out of your own mouth - and in the same sentence! How can your 'uncreated creator' have an intelligent designer? You always accuse others of 'calling Jesus a liar', yet you yourself are calling Jesus a LIAR too, by saying that God (who is Jesus) had an intelligent designer (thus contradicting your own beliefs) and therefore are inferior beings to this 'intelligent designer'!

And don't DARE come back with 'You misunderstand' or 'You misread', or 'You're taking things out of context'. YOU'RE the one who wrote this, you're supposed to have thought it out, to make it flawless, to make it impossible to contradict & thus the Atheist reader admit defeat & convert. But your 'proofreading' (as you're supposed to have done beforehand, to ensure proper grammar), based on your beliefs has said this, this is now truth. It's there in black & white for everyone to see. You've said that God had an intelligent designer, you can't take that back now, nor even correct it. You've said it, it's now TRUTH. God ISN'T the almighty creator he makes out to be, as stated in the Bible. He did INDEED have a creator, thus he WASN'T uncreated. Therefore he is an inferior being, thus unworthy of belief, ergo HE DOESN'T EXIST.

QED.

And it came directly from YOU, Troy-boy. You condemned yourself out of YOUR mouth:

"the uncreated Creator intelligently designed"

You said it, you mean it.

GOTCHA!

old comment by Anon-e-moose

@Troy-boy

Ah, using new copypasta, eh? Well, it's too late now - you said before:

"the uncreated Creator intelligently designed"

Your previous statement was gospel (by the mere fact you'd used it so many times previously), so aren't you LYING to yourself by adding to your own statement of truth? In the same way as adding to the Bible is heresy, you've openly proved you're a self-HERETIC, along with being a LIAR. You openly admitted to the world that God had a creator (thus your statement since then doesn't count), therefore he is an inferior being. And an inferior being has NO right to be believed. Ergo, HE DOESN'T EXIST.

And you admitted that fact.

old comment by Anon-e-moose

@Troy-boy

All you can do is spout that copypasta diarrhoea, because you know it's all you have - a tissue-paper thin excuse to cling on to your stupid 'Faith' (you haven't made a single convert on ANY of the Christian forums you've infected with your presence, as proved by them banning you! So what makes us think your fundy bullshit will work with US?!), because you know that ultimately, we Atheists are RIGHT: God DOESN'T EXIST. Incidentally, cop for this (from said diarhhoea copypasta):

"C. S. Lewis wrote that there are only 3 posibilities: either Jesus is who He says He is (God), or he is a liar or a lunatic. We see Jesus being of sound mind and body more than anyone, without sin, so he was not a lunatic"

Who of sound mind would curse a fig tree? That's like me cursing my computer when it freezes up*. Only a lunatic would. And Jesus DID sin, by displaying Anger (a DEADLY sin!) when he overturned the tables of the moneylenders at the temple. And by sinning, Jesus made a LIAR out of himself, and therefore he CAN'T be God. And who would openly claim to be God, or at least the 'Son of God'? Isn't that the behaviour of a lunatic? Two Words: David Icke. So he ISN'T what he claimed to be (and thus ISN'T God), therefore he is a contradiction to himself, ergo he DOESN'T EXIST.

QED.

*- Instead of doing the reasonable thing, and merely pressing the 'Reset' button (which is why if you're typing a letter or creating a spreadsheet etc, remember the Golden Rule: save early & often!)

old comment by Anon-e-moose

Two can play at that game, Troy-boy:

"the uncreated Creator intelligently designed".

-Troy Brooks

Try and address the points here:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html

DO IT FAGGOT.

QED.

---------------------------------

QED.

*- Instead of doing the reasonable thing, and merely pressing the 'Reset' button (which is why if you're typing a letter or creating a spreadsheet etc, remember the Golden Rule: save early & often!)

old comment by Anon-e-moose

Despite all the word salad, all the verbal diarrhoea he comes out with, it all boils down to this: everything he says is merely an excuse, to try and force the Atheist to believe in his superstitious claptrap by switching the burden of proof on them. Well, it doesn't work that way. YOU say 'God exists'. We don't need to lift a finger. We don't have to do ANYTHING. It's YOU who has the burden of proof, Troy-boy. It's YOU who has to prove he exists. And if you've ever learned from experience, you'll know your philosophical word salad (and using such to transfer the burden of proof on us) FAILS to do so. Words prove NOTHING (court cases can't be decided on words, it's Forensic evidence that does, if you've ever seen CSI). Hard, solid PHYSICAL evidence does. And the ONLY way to convince people is for your 'God' to appear. In hard, solid, PHYSICAL form. Otherwise, your use of words is irrelevant, illogical, useless. UNCONVINCING. (and merely saying 'God doesn't perform parlour tricks!' is THE most unconvincing argument imaginable). And it's not OUR place to prove his existence. As the one putting forth the original premise that 'God exists' - it's YOU who has to convince us.

And to convince us - and the ONLY way to do so - I've said it before, and you know the drill: it's YOUR job to make your 'God' appear to us. That's all it'll take for you to convince us completely. After all, if you were a salesman promoting a product, you can't expect to make a sale if you can't actually SHOW said product (would you shell out hard cash on something you couldn't SEE, nor HOLD, nor USE, nor expect to ever?!). Would you pay money for NOTHING?. See what I'm getting at? You're the salesman - SELL 'God'. And we refuse to buy such if we can't SEE the product you're selling. It's called ADVERTISING. On TV, in magazines, even online, we can see what we're buying at least. Can you say the same for what you're promoting? If we can't SEE the item, why should we invest emotional currency in such? Some salesman YOU are.

I reckon that's why you go to casinos to make a quick buck. Since becoming a fundy, I doubt you've worked an honest day in your life, because if you can't make a convincing case for the existence of something that can't be SEEN, you'd be hopeless at 'selling yourself' at a job interview. You certainly haven't done a decent job of persuading others on (Christian/agnostic & Atheist) forums to join your brand of extreme Xtian fundyism. Because you haven't made one convert to date. NOT ONE. The fact you've been banned from all those forums you joined is proof of that. Why is that? Six Words: Everything you SAY, DO, and THINK. What another fundy has said in an OP quote here in FSTDT sums you up perfectly:

"And I think Christians have failed in general when we have this many athiest running around claiming there is no God."

-Elaine

( http://www.fstdt.com/fundies/comments.aspx?q=52547 )

At least she's honest. And once she changes 'claiming' to 'knowing', she's more than halfway to realising WHY she said that. Are you prepared to be that honest? If this 'God' wants us to know him, he knows the drill. The fact is, you have NO part in this, Troy-boy. You're useless. You're irrelevant. You're a 'fifth wheel'. You're 'Surplus to Requirements'. Because if your 'God' was everything he claimed to be, he'd have no need for the likes of you whatsoever.

The alternative is too terrible for the likes of you to contemplate. Hence your 'Four Step Proof' & all your other BS. Because you know that forcing the burden of proof onto others is your self-delusion & cultic self-hypnotic suggestion to protect you from that one unimaginable concept:

'What if there is NO God? And once we die, that's it. GAME OVER.'

And before you answer (and no, your copypasta BS doesn't count! We'll just ignore it if you do. Answer THIS post of mine specifically. Don't be vague, like Satan!), consider very carefully these words by the comedian Bill Hicks:

"Christianity has a built-in defense system: anything that questions a belief, no matter how logical the argument is, is the work of Satan by the very fact that it makes you question a belief. It's a very interesting defense mechanism and the only way to get by it -- and believe me, I was raised Southern Baptist -- is to take massive amounts of mushrooms, sit in a field, and just go, "Show me.""

@Troy-boy the LIAR #839490

"Do you think FSTDT, FOR SATAN THE DEMONIC THINKERS, is going to the close down this thread too in censorship like it did this thread?"

Probably not, but I hope FSTDT's admins IP ban you. Then there's one more site you've been banned from. And it won't be the fault of we Atheists - it'll be because of YOUR Spam, Troy the eternal LIAR. Unless you stop your spamming, and start answering questions of the posters here (including the previous ones you've just spammed with your copypasta BS). Be specific, don't be vague, like Satan. And when you answer said questions, how about trying to do so without using your philosophical word salad diarhhoea, and none of your LIES, nor that filthy book of LIES called the Bible, nor even falling back upon your security blankie of 'Faith'? Instead, use logic & reason.

Indeed, if you resort to your copypasta once more, I'll request that the admin IP bans you. This is your LAST WARNING.

old comment by Rime

You're crying censorhip? You were warned that your copy/pasting multiple copies of your essays would result in having your abilites to comment disabled. Then, you copy/pasted the same post five times. So, you really worked to earn your priveleges revoked. Most of your material still remains, so really, you don't have much of a case.

I know that if we perpetrated the same behavior on your boards by spamming with youtube videos featuring Dawkins and websites critical of Christianity, you'd have us "censored" as well. So if you can't play by the rules, you get kicked out of the game, Mr. Brooks. All in all, the rules here are pretty slack, and you really had to push to get removed from the game.

You were invited to participate in the forums, Troy, and as far as I know, as long as you don't create 30 threads in a day with the same information, you are free to say what you want. But to this day, you won't join the forums because you know it annoys people more to advertise for your website here.

Churchwork #fundie #senpai_noticed_us biblocality.com

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