In short, I do claim that “all science is Christian science”.
[...]
So, can pagans do science? No, or yes only to the extent that they abandon pagan thinking and adopt Christian thinking, as the ancient Latin and Greek worlds did. What about heretics? Certainly they can, to the extent that they retain Christian thinking. A heretic is by definition a Christian of a sort, although the particular bent of a particular heresy might preclude it.
What about a post-Christian society, such as ours, or a never-Christian society such as Japan? It remains to be seen, I think, but the signs are not good so far.
31 comments
<What about a post-Christian society, such as ours, or a never-Christian society such as Japan? It remains to be seen, I think, but the signs are not good so far.>
What are you talking about, Doc? All the best stuff is made in Japan [/McFly]
But seriously, what the hell? Some of the greatest scientific discoveries in the world originated in non-Christian countries. As a small example, does gunpowder ring a bell?
the Greek world made its major contribution to science and philosophy BEFORE the Christian thinking.
anyway, it seems to me that your terms "Christian science", "Christian thinking" or even "Christian" are ill-defined, if you already moved the goalposts to include the heretics.
Because SONY, Mitsubishi, Honda, Bridgestone and Fujitsu were all founded by European and American Christians...
"What about a post-Christian society, such as ours, or a never-Christian society such as Japan? It remains to be seen, I think, but the signs are not good so far."
Because Japan is a complete incompetent when it comes to science and technology. The only thing coming out of Japan is rice and bad kung foo movies.
I'll just throw out there that Bill Gates is an atheist who has done a little bit of science in his day.
Or do you mean actual official pagans, and not just anyone who doesn't believe in your particular Christian cult? As Ambrose Bierce said, "A pagan is someone who believes in a different god than you do."
@ Azereaux
Actually, christianity in Japan is marginal. The first missionaries made themselves so disturbing to the admittedly screwed up local government the shogun had them crucified all along the coast when they rebelled. The whole process is vile, but I gotta say, when you know what happened in America, I cannot really fault the guys.
@Spuki,
This guy's a presuppositionalist. They will tell you with a straight face that logic, science, and morality are exclusive products of Christianity to the point that any nonbeliever who uses them must be stealing them. They will say this even as they promote blatantly contradictory theology*, execrate not just science but the scientific method itself, and argue that mankind's moral impulse really wants to see the Jews tortured for all eternity** if the alternative is a world where everybody is annihilated equally.
* Cornelius van Til, the guy who gave us presuppositionalism, wet himself at the thought of any apparent contradictions in any worldview that wasn't his own, but was all too happy to say that his own logical contradictions were ok because "mysterious ways, my thoughts are above yours, blah blah blah".
** That's what the Holocaust argument might as well say, even if nobody ever words it like that.
If you have to qualify science as Christian Science ...... It ain't science!
Science is that stuff that is objectively and demonstrably true to Christians and pagans and atheists and Hindus and Muslims and Mormons and fire-breathing Sons of Odin alike. If any sect cannot or will not see what others can all see, we call that Christian blindness.
@Indicible
Wasn't saying Japan was heavily Christian. Just that Christianity exists there. Which is more than the OP seems to think.
And... yeah, the early missionaries were... let's just say really, really bad at their jobs, and had this weird idea that their culture (and only their culture) came with the belief structure, which created some of the initial friction with the Japanese (who would have simply done what they did with Buddhism and incorporated it into their pre-existing belief structure). Them being dicks about it (to put it mildly) led to the strife you describe.
Come to think of it, that sounds like a lot of modern fundie tactics...
@Azereaux
....or any colonial powers.
If an outsider wants to share a new idea or belief system, it would work better if you respect the culture & people while presenting the new thing as a variation of the old thing, adapting it to the culture. Like if some Christan missionaries in an alternate universe decided to present Bible-God as Wankan Tanka to some Indigamerican Plains people. Thus, making Christianity into an Indigeous American-style spirituality.
That said, I don't believe in forcing a faith on people. However, if I was a missionary type, that would be the best approach.
When sharing new ideas or faiths, you need to respect the people and their customs and adapt it to that.....and treat the people with honor & respect as equals. None of this imperialistic, genocidal bullcrap.
There is no christian or muslim algebra. The maths and sciences don't give two shits about your stupid belief system.
I would damn well like to see how the ancient Greeks applied the lessons of christ in their science. Yes indeed.
Oh yeah? What about all that science and culture that would have been lost if it wasn't preserved by Muslim Arabs while Europe was in the Dark Age? What about the invention of gunpowder and paper by the Confucian Chinese? Or the ongoing advances in robotics undergone by the Budhist Japanese? Seems to me science requires absolutely no christianity.
Oh, and the greatest advances by Greeks and Romans were done when Jesus wasn't even an itch in Jozef's pants. Also, add the Carthaginians with their navigational and commercial discoveries. Or the Gauls unrecorded knowledge of smithing and optics. You can't even retroactively claim they were predestined towards christianity. They all died at the hands of the Romans.
You mean the Christian thinking so intellectually stifling and terrified of reality that it actually prolonged an age of ignorance so severe that we named it "The Dark Age"? The Christian thinking that had to be steadfastly challenged, rebuked and rebuffed at every turn for decades before we could claw our way back up and re discover the knowledge and wisdom of those pagan civilisations? That Christian thinking?
If your head were buried any further up your own ass you'd collapse in on yourself and wink out of existence.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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