What is the logical reason in your view that thinking beings have rights? Why would that be the case in a chance universe? When you are unconscious, and not really thinking, do you cease to have rights? Having “rights” is a moral truth. But how can you have morality in a chance universe apart from God?
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morality exists because WE HUMANS MAKE IT BE. it's one of our inventions, and it exists for the same reason plumbing does --- to make our human lives better; to make it easier for us to live in social groupings; to make it possible for us to grow our societies larger in greater comfort. the notion of "rights" is part and parcel of this, and is there for the same reason.
...of course, that's not really the whole truth; it's the superficial lie-for-children that the likes of Jason might best be able to comprehend. the full truth, that morality is an emergent property of the same sorts of behaviour and reaction patterns that create societies in the first place, and therefore no more unique to humanity than social living is, might break his brain.
For the record, Lisle believes that the capability to know anything at all requires the existence of an omniscient God who sees the utter totality of the future (thus requiring determinism on top of that, even if not in the sense of God decreeing every last bit of that future). Effectively, knowledge is nothing more than constant divine whispers.
What is the logical reason in your view that thinking beings have rights?
Because a society works better when when citizens have legal protections against authorities that would abuse their power. But of course you fundies would never understand that because you think no one has any rights outside of groveling before your "God".
Why would that be the case in a chance universe?
Non sequitur.
When you are unconscious, and not really thinking, do you cease to have rights?
Well, we still think you have rights... /Sarcasm.
Having “rights” is a moral truth. But how can you have morality in a chance universe apart from God?
Because people can figure out what "good" and "bad" is all by themselves. They are able to see that certain things are good or bad by their effects on society. No god needed.
A chance universe? You want to make some money on that? Go walk head first into a wall. If this is truly a chance universe then there's a CHANCE that you'll bang your head but there's also a chance that you'll emerge on the other side without a scratch, win the lottery, find buried treasure, real live Pokemon, or literally any other random thing could happen. Best of all, you don't have to bet any money. If you don't bang your head I'll give you $1000. I'll even give you multiple tries at various types of walls. You'll be much richer if you can show how random the universe is, and worst case scenario is that continually running your head into the wall will knock some damn sense into you. You can't lose.
Why not? Humans are weak in themselves; we need to cooperate to survive. Humans, who worked together well, prospered, while those who held slaves had constant uprisings. People, who are appreciated and respected, work well without being constantly watched. When you are brain-dead, and no longer ABLE to think, they you cease to have rights. Having rights is an empathy and equality thing.
How can you HAVE morality with a God who changes his mind all the time, and kill people left, right and center for stupid nosensical reasons?
Who guided the creation of your God, btw? How is he not chance?
Humans created these rights because we figured that its much easier to survive in a group when we don't have to worry 100% of the time about our neighbor coming over and shooting us to take our property...unfortunately this does happen in some places. Also the flying spaghetti monster doesn't intervene in mortal affairs, silly fundie.
"Why would that be the case in a chance universe?"
What is your evidence that this is a chance universe?
@ Robespierre
Rights are defined, established and defended by civilization. That is why they are so precious: their existence depends on the continuation of civilization. It is when civilization descends into barbarism that rights become fictional.
I've had this conversation with more than a few rabid libertarians, the ones who are looking forward to the decline of civilization so they can finally exercise their alleged god or nature given rights. When I try to explain the role of civilization in defending and upholding rights, they brag about their gun collection and say, "that's all the civilization I need." It never seems to occur to them that two people with guns and some sort of agreement between them instantly have a lethal advantage.
@Robespierre: you mean you can perceive moral rights using your sensory organs? then please, point me out some rights. for the rest of us, they're abstract concepts very much up for debate --- important debate not to be taken lightly, but no less abstract for that.
"What is the logical reason in your view that thinking beings have rights? Why would that be the case in a chance universe?"
Because even marginally observant, thinking persons realize societies work better if everyone has certain rights.
What is the logical reason in your view that thinking beings have rights?
Because thinking beings agreed that we did, and agreed that when we get screwed because they don't really exist (abstract concept) those rights have been "violated".
Why would that be the case in a chance universe?
Strawman.
No. The law does not cease to apply when I'm asleep.
Having “rights” is a moral truth.
Begging the question. I contend that having rights is a legal fiction. Not one I'd care to live without, I might add.
But how can you have morality in a chance universe apart from God?
Causality is not random. All that is written (on this planet) is man-made. All "rights" are codified. How can you be said to be "apart from" that which has no established existence? Contrariwise, how can you not be "apart from" that which has no established existence? The question has no answer and is therefore a meaningless semantic null.
You fail logic.
@Nomen Nescio:
I wouldn't be able to point to a single morality-perceiving organ. I can, however, experience moral outrage over things that seem wrong; not simply pain or empathy, but the distinct feeling that some things are right or wrong.
It may seem a stupid argument, but it's about as good a reason as, say, the arguments I have to believe there's a wall currently standing to my left. My senses tell me so.
"What is the logical reason in your view that thinking beings have rights?"
"Why would that be the case in a chance universe?"
"When you are unconscious, and not really thinking, do you cease to have rights?"
"Having “rights” is a moral truth. But how can you have morality in a chance universe apart from God?"
Well, for one thing, we don't generally describe our universe purely or even primarily in terms of chance; that's a massive straw man.
For another, there are entire treatises on philosophy dedicated to answering this admittedly complex question. If you weren't obviously being sarcastic and actually gave a fuck about learning, I would suggest reading some. In particular I recommend Rawls, A Theory of Justice . It explains, among other things, how rights come to be in terms of the gradual evolution of societies. (Incidentally, having rights isn't quite a moral truth but rather a social and political one. This doesn't negate the rest of your post though.)
@D Laurier:
The phrase "chance universe" describes the idea that everything that happens is due to coincidences and dumb luck. All these wonderful natural phenomena and these impressive human societies, all complete accidents. Part of the reason fundies refuse to accept the validity of atheistic ideas is because they can only conceive of two explanations for the universe, God being the other.
"But how can you have morality in a chance universe apart from God?"
- Ethics was a well developed branch of philosophy long before the birth of Christ. It set out to answer the question of how society could survive for the long run and how the individual could live the best possible life. Notice what's missing in that description? You got it: Pagan ethical philosophy made no appeals to deities. It didn't have to.
"What is the logical reason in your view that thinking beings have rights?"
(*Unzips flies, pulls gusset of undercrackers aside, whops out knackers *)
Bollocko ergo sum.
I have lefts , therefore...! [/hyper-smartarse] [/Buster Gonad] X3
Next question Mr. LIEsle.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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