[In reference to a Pagan couple being persecuted by Christians]
Councillor Chris Gough, a former Mayor of Alcester and deacon at Alcester Baptist Church, said: “I’m aware that they are being frowned upon. Instinctively, it is not the sort of thing we want to see in the town.
"As a church-goer, I think we probably feel strongly about anyone who puts themselves forward as a witch in any form.”
67 comments
Instinctively, it is not the sort of thing we want to see in the town.
Yeah, right. "Yes, we are tolerant of strangers. But these strangers are not from here!"
I think we probably feel strongly about anyone who puts themselves forward as a witch in any form.
*Ahem* Would you please arrive in the ... 21st century, Mr. Councillor Gough?
The sum total of this statement is, quite literally, nothing but an open, shameless admission that, yes, his community is deliberately persecuting people for daring not to conform to the majority group identity in one single, solitary aspect of their complex lives, and for no better reason than an animal fucking instinct to hate outsiders.
Can't say I'm impressed with the reporter at just leaving it there and not subsequently tearing this guy to shreds with references to all the advances of civilisation beyond that point since forever.
Wait, what? This isn't some Alcester in Redstate USA, but the original, in Warwickshire? WTF? How do you feel about atheists 'as a church-goer', Councillor Arsehole?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's something off about this story.
First of all, the way this quote is cropped is misleading (I've mentioned this exact thing in the past.) Folks need to go read the whole article to see the context here. These people aren't being harassed because they're openly Pagan, but because they've opened a Witchcraft shop where they also hold courses to teach people the practice.
Though I personally think the shop's theme is a cash grab based on the Harry Potter craze, because I've never known wands and cauldrons to be part of real Paganism. I could be wrong here, but it doesn't smack of authenticity.
These people aren't being harassed because they're openly Pagan, but because they've opened a Witchcraft shop where they also hold courses to teach people the practice.
And this makes it OK to victimise them how?
Never suggested it did.
But people are getting offended because they think the person being quoted is assuming these people are witches just by being Pagan, without reading the article and seeing that they are actually literally presenting themselves as Witches.
I'm pointing out how the quote is misleading and that people need to read the context of any quote to really get the whole situation. Exactly how the victims are being harassed, rather than just 'frowned upon', and what the townspeople are reacting to.
I'm also suggesting that the witchcraft thing is just a ploy to make money, and if they're linking their Paganism to it, that it's dishonest.
There's no subtext here.
If this were in America, it would sound something like "We don't take kindly to people bein' witches and stuff. This is Jesus country."
@Quasirodent
I don't care if they claim to be Bhuddists who are selling Korans. I think it's all a bunch of nonsense they're selling anyway, no matter what they call it. If people are willing to buy magic wands & cauldrons from them, then they've tapped into a moneymaking opportunity. They shouldn't be harassed for it, though.
@Quasirodent Wands and cauldrons are definitely part of ceremonial magic, though usually in the UK and USA as part of the Neo-Wiccan movement. Check out some of the books published by Llewellyn and the like and you'll find a ton of "no true scottsman" authors if you don't have the appropriate equipment. (And some really laid back books too, which helped me through my own pagan phase.)
"As a church-goer, I think we probably feel strongly about anyone who puts themselves forward as a witch in any form.”
And I feel strongly about anyone who persecutes anybody, so shut up and fuck off.
“I’m aware that they are being frowned upon. Instinctively, it is not the sort of thing we want to see in the town.
As a church-goer, I think we probably feel strongly about anyone who puts themselves forward as a witch in any form."
(emphasis added):
'For happily the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance , requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens, in giving it on all occasions their effectual support.'
-George Washington
Councillor, you are no good citizen.
[/Lloyd Bentsen]
Witches aren't real, you sanctimonious moron. If all you did was frown, I don't think they'd care. It's the rest of the abusive behaviour from your "good Christian" flock that's bothering them.
If only you people were actually more like Christ, you would be tolerable.
@nazani14
"From watching US TV, I got the notion that in Britain witches and druids were welcome as tourist attractions and eccentric characters."
Councillor Gough had better not watch any anime then, if he knows what's good for him:
image
Ascoeur Potter and the Half-Blood ES-Member:
image
X3
@ Quasirodent
If someone opened a shop for Christians, with Bible learning classes, and people responded the same way- we'd have no problem saying they were being persecuted for being Christians.
Also, many Pagans call themselves "witches" and use the term interchangably with "pagans". Lastly, try brushing up on paganism a little bit. In some branches of paganism, things like wands, cloaks, and the whole nine yards are very much a part of worship.
Hm. I live a few miles from Alcester... and to be frank when they mention that people have urinated on the outside of their shop that's just as likely to be drunks who are incapable of finding an alley or a bush to pee on as it is to be some sort of Christian led pee-campaign. Alcester is a shithole and I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the people shouting 'burn the witches' aren't Christians either, but more likely to be bored local youth (and also likely to be the same people who peed on the outside of the shop).
Living in the area, I find the whole "Christian" persecution thing slightly unbelievable... its more likely to be down to bored local youths. Villages around here are pretty boring, kids drink to pass the time. Where I live the local Church Youth Group had their meeting hall peed on and had stuff about Lions and Christians shouted at them. Does this mean they were the focus of atheist persecution? No, just that bored, drunk, kids were making trouble.
Yes, there is a probability that there are christians in Alcester who are against them, but I just don't think its going to be as simple as Christians vs Pagans. Its more likely to be a case of bored local youth + alcohol + people perceived as weird (religion or whatever is unlikely to matter) = abuse.
Okay, so I was wrong about the use of stereotypical 'witch' symbols in Paganism. That's fine.
The only point I'm making is that the quote is framed in such a way that is misleading. Even though the details of why someone was being an intolerant ass don't really matter, and it wouldn't make a difference if it were a different situation or topic... it's just something that bothers me.
Now, personally, I place pagans in the same delusional groups as Christians, but I would never demand them to not live in the same city as I do.
This reminds me of former president George W. H. Bush and his view on atheists. Thwse are simply ideas you do not come across in the civilized world.
George H. W. Bush: Atheists Neither Citizens Nor Patriots
Sherman: What will you do to win the votes of the Americans who are atheists?
Bush: I guess I'm pretty weak in the atheist community. Faith in God is important to me.
Sherman: Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are atheists?
Bush: No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.
Sherman (somewhat taken aback): Do you support as a sound constitutional principle the separation of state and church?
Bush: Yes, I support the separation of church and state. I'm just not very high on atheists.
@Reverend Jeremiah:
"How strongly do you feel about it? Strong enough to burn them?"
Of course not, that would be barbaric. Instead, they will hang them.
Oh don't tell me people in First World countries still believe in witches. So this Alcester and this Coventry... are they not in Britain? (Which means Councillor Gough isn't a US citizen, Anon-e-moose.) Which means that... there are idiotic fundies over there like I have been saying for months. So can we PLEASE stop with the America-bashing? I can't believe that someone here expressed surprise when he or she learned that this is in a British city.
His4Life
Anon-e-moose, what is with your constant fixation on Japanese cartoon characters?
And what is with your constant fixation on Jesus?
Jesus, i.e. Christ, or Japanese cartoon characters are the same thing: fantasy, imagination, fiction, whoopy.
The big difference is that Anon-e-moose isn't delusional enough to think that his fantasies are real and are going to "save" him.
Load Program Shame
Insert Foot in Mouth
Loading Program Spin
Load Fail
Load Fail
Try Again, Reboot, Fail?
> Yes, there is a probability that there are christians in Alcester who are against them, but I just don't think
> its going to be as simple as Christians vs Pagans. Its more likely to be a case of bored local youth + alcohol
> + people perceived as weird (religion or whatever is unlikely to matter) = abuse.
Got to go with this. Having lived in another (nearby) town ending in -cester, I just don't see a simpler or more likely reason (feel free to dive in on my subjective assessment, if you will).
@Brendan Rizzo:
> So can we PLEASE stop with the America-bashing? I can't believe that someone here expressed surprise when he
> or she learned that this is in a British city.
I would agree with you that automatic America-bashing (if not in this thread then another) isn't a good thing. However a good number of quotes here do come from the US and, while their blatant stupidity shouldn't reflect on the more thoughtful Americans, they inevitably influence human responses. That doesn't make it right, but just something which needs addressing.
Ah, the Coventry (Evening)Telegraph!
When I was at Uni there many years ago it was always known as the Torygraph and there was a running competition among students to invent the most insanely right-wing tripe and get it published on the letters page (or "Bigots' Corner" as it was known). My housemate was surprised when after a well-written but particularly spiteful and bile-filled rant he was offered a freelance job with them, later becoming their sports reporter.
@those accusing me of ooc quoting:
The quote quite clearly states his position on the persecution (percieved or not) of witches.
Quite clearly a "We don't want your type 'round these parts" statement.
@Brendan Rizzo: That was one of the reasons I submitted it. It's just that our fundies can be a bit more subtle in their derision of non-christians.
@solomongrundy: The Telegraph was bought out by the Mirror Group quite a few years ago. The reporting can be quite unbiased, but the right-wingers still occupy the letters page. Maybe you remeber a particuarly annoying letter writer by the name of M.T. Hancock?
well, witchcraft isn't real, and magic doesn't exist. So they aren't hurting anyone except the idiots that give them money. And anyone dumb enough to pay for witchery classes would have lost thay money anyway to a fortune teller, nigerian prince, or ponzi scheme
@ Brendan Rizzo --
Oh don't tell me people in First World countries still believe in witches.
Not only that -- you know the witch-hunt hysteria kicked up in Kenya, Nigeria, Congo, etc.? The ones where children are accused of casting evil spells and are thrown out of their homes, assaulted, or even killed?
Kicked up by American fundie preachers and a few African preachers with American fundie connections. The religious wing of the GOP still considers many of them good people to make appearances with when campaigning.
Though this thread at least tells us that Americans aren't alone in our industrialized-nation fundie problem.
I don't much like most Wiccan and pagan beliefs. I don't much like most Christian beliefs. I don't think much of most religious and/or supernatural beliefs in general.
But I also don't think much of most politically conservative beliefs. I don't think very highly of most political/religious/philosophical belief systems. Otherwise, I would have adopted them as my own.
However, I can still think highly of an individual even if I don't think highly of some of the things I belief. I can respect someone and still disagree with them.
I wouldn't mind if Chris Gough here was just saying that he didn't think much of paganism or witchcraft. I wouldn't mind if he was simply saying that he thought they were wrong or didn't like what they were doing.
However, the way he's quoted in the article, it seems like he is defending the vandals that are harassing these people. Even if he disagrees with them, he ought to defend their right to disagree with him!
Excuse me, there are witches. Witches do exist. Please respect us.
By the way, there are Ceremonial Practitioners, Chaos Magickians & even LeVeyan-type Satanists who identify as atheists & practice magick.
Nothing is truly Black & White.
There's only about 10 protestant church-goers in the whole of the UK and all of them are either pensioners or recovering alcoholics plus the knob-head Councillor Gough. Catholics are lapsing all over the place, and who can blame them.
We've had our fill of lying, vicious, torturing, death-happy religious twats over the centuries, probably the rest of Europe has as well. That has got a lot to do with the generally low appreciation of religions here.
SpukiKitty, I will indeed repect witches, as I do my fellow FSTDT posters. (In your case, double the respect!) I will also respect Christians, Moslems, Buddhists and even Fundies for their inherent dignity as human beings.
That does not mean I can respect beliefs that amount to no more than wilful self-deception. The early magicians recorded all the spells that work. We now call that record science.
@ John_in_Oz
"That does not mean I can respect beliefs that amount to no more than wilful self-deception. The early magicians recorded all the spells that work. We now call that record science."
Saying that there can't be witches because magic isn't real is the same as saying there can't be Christians because people rising from the dead after three days isn't real.
Tons of crap that "happened" in the Bible, Torah, Koran, etc is impossible. That doesn't mean the people who follow those religious don't exist.
1st Ammendment as it is: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
How fundies interpret the first ammendment: I can own a gun and 'freedom of religion' is not freedom from religion or anything else but Presbyterainism!!!1eleven!111
I have too high an opinion of my fellow man, apparently. I thought that Councillor Gough did not want to see people being frowned upon in his town, when I first read through the text.
Then reality kicked in, and I saw that he did not want people who are different from him in his town.
I liked my fantasy world better, could I have it back, please?
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
To post a comment, you'll need to Sign in or Register . Making an account also allows you to claim credit for submitting quotes, and to vote on quotes and comments. You don't even need to give us your email address.