It's a well understood principle of civil rights that no one should be denied service by any business due to the color of their skin, ethnicity, national origin, age, etc.
Now the gender-confused community came along and said we have to add gender preference to that list, which most such laws did. And that's perfectly reasonable, though of course the question becomes how would anyone know one's gender preference unless one enters establishments and performs private acts in public?
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The same gender community, represented by the famous intellectual Hollywood stars listed above [Miley Cyrus, Ashton Kutcher, and George Takei] , is screaming that their RIGHTS will be violated by this new law, and are screaming for a boycott of the State of Indiana.
My question is... do religious people no longer have any rights to hold by their beliefs? And while I acknowledge there is great room for abuse, isn't the problem at the moment that it's the religious citizens that are having THEIR rights abused?
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Freedom of religion does not mean a license to discriminate based on religious belief.
Also, there are people whose religious beliefs are racist and who therefore will racially discriminate and justify it with religion.
Every right granted to you by society comes with a cost in responsibility and/or oppertunity.
You can't practice your right to walk down both sides of the street at once.
When walking down whichever side of the street you choose, you must act with responsibility to the other people also using that public space.
You have the right to hold your beliefs.
You have a right to keep a job.
These rights may be mutually exclusive, depending on your beliefs.
You have the right to hold your beliefs.
You have a right to own a business.
These rights may be mutually exclusive, depending on your beliefs.
"though of course the question becomes how would anyone know one's gender preference unless one enters establishments and performs private acts in public?"
Good question. How did the cake baker know the couple who ordered the cake was gay?
You know Reb, you can hold any belief you want. The law gives you ample room yo legally discriminate in your religious life. Are you forced to accept women as leaders or scholars? No. Indeed, some christians hold a sincere belief that Jews killed their Savior and that any ill that befalls Jews is righteous punishment from God. They are also permitted their beliefs.
The problem is when we come out of our religious groups and interact with the real world. Is the sincere anti-Semite permitted to put up signs saying "No Jews or Dogs"? Because I see no difference between that and a sign saying "No Gays."
"Now the gender-confused community came along and said we have to add gender preference to that list, which most such laws did. And that's perfectly reasonable, though of course the question becomes how would anyone know one's gender preference unless one enters establishments and performs private acts in public?"
Yes, that is perfectly reasonable. What's unreasonable is your assertion that it leads to your question. If it's reasonable not to discriminate against anyone based on their gender, then it doesn't matter what their gender is, how you perceive that gender or what your opinion of their gender is - treat them without discrimination.
It's not reasonable to discriminate based on race either. Do you demand to know what colour skin someone has when you deal with them on the phone or by email?
no one should be denied service by any business due to the color of their skin, ethnicity, national origin, age, etc.
And sexual preference. There's absolutely no reason sexual preference can't be added to that list. As well as religion.
My question is... do religious people no longer have any rights to hold by their beliefs?
Yes, you do. However, you don't have the right to be dicks about it and discriminate against other people.
They may hold whatever beliefs they like BUT they must obey secular law or face the consequences.
Oersonally I think business owners should have the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason except in the rare cases where health or safety are involved (doctors, pharmacist, fire, police)
If a bakery does not want my business I dont want a cake that maybe they spat in.
And while I acknowledge there is great room for abuse, isn't the problem at the moment that it's the religious citizens that are having THEIR rights abused?
I'll play. Are christians being refused service in restaurants? Do bakers refuse to make cakes for christian weddings? Are christians refused the right to marry? Do christians in the first world have to fear getting the shit beat out of them whenever they leave the house simply due to their religious identity?
No.
Game over.
Do religious people have rights? Yes. Are they being abused? No. Next question.
"Religion is like a penis. It might be very nice to have and to hold, but don't take it out in public and wave it in people's faces."
While being a bigoted arsehole may seem to be a (Bible) God-given right to fundies who try their best to emulate their hateful, nasty deity, we normals should fight tooth and nail to prevent discrimination from being endorsed by secular law.
You do not have the right to refuse others service because your beliefs, and it is not persecution to allow anyone to be able to be served as everyone else would be. No-one has the right to discriminate against others, it isn't persecution to oppose a culture of segregation.
"And that's perfectly reasonable, though of course the question becomes how would anyone know one's gender preference unless one enters establishments and performs private acts in public?"
I don't know, maybe there'd be some little clue one could pick up on--like the fact that they are trying to purchase a friggin wedding cake for their planned same sex wedding from you?
"My question is... do religious people no longer have any rights to hold by their beliefs? And while I acknowledge there is great room for abuse, isn't the problem at the moment that it's the religious citizens that are having THEIR rights abused?"
You have the right to believe anything you want. But goverment has the right to make laws that regulate society for the benefit and protection of everyone. That includes laws that regulate business. So, you can believe whatever you want, but if you want to own a business, you must accept the fact that you have to comply with those laws. It's like owning a car; you have to obey the rules of the road. Don't want to comply with the law? Don't start a business.
do religious people no longer have any rights to hold by their beliefs?
What if their beliefs include virgin sacrifice or having sex with 12-year-olds? Civil law trumps the "free exercise" clause of the First Amendment, and always has. In this case, "religious people" want the right - which no actual church requires of the faithful - to treat others like crap. Jesus said "love your neighbor". He didn't say "don't sell flowers to gay people" - you just made that part up because you're a bigot who doesn't like gays and you've convinced yourself that God agrees with you.
It's a well understood principle of civil rights that no one should be denied service by any business due to the color of their skin, ethnicity, national origin, age, etc. [...] though of course the question becomes how would anyone know one's gender preference unless one enters establishments and performs private acts in public?
How would you know a person's national origin? Do people wear little flags so you can identify them?
"My question is... do religious people no longer have any rights to hold by their beliefs?"
"Judge not, lest ye be judged and found wanting?"
Religion is included in that list as well, and it's also hard to know anyone's religion unless one enters establishments and performs private acts in public. (Remember; Jesus told you to pray in private.)
It's also often hard to judge the age of a person.
Gender community? Do you lack a gender, Reb, or what?
No, they scream that their rights ARE violated by this new law.
Who said that Miley or Ashton are intellectual?
You have every right to hold by your beliefs, dearie.
Don't like SSM? Don't enter into one!
Don't like showing your hair in public? Don't show your hair in public!
Don't want to bake cakes for Christian couples? Don't bake cakes!
What you can't do is to force OTHERS to comply with your religion.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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