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Anne Kennedy #fundie patheos.com

(=Part two of Anne Kennedy's Glenn Doyle Melton rant=)

So yesterday I got through half my thought. To recap, Glenn Doyle Melton recently announced on Facebook that in the wake of finally separating from her husband, she entered into a romantic relationship with another woman. Yesterday I began to answer the question What is love? Insisting, rather lamely, now that I go back and look at it, that self love is not really “love” in a true sense. But in this brave new world self love is the hope and the dream.

Of course, I’ve used the word “love” without really defining it. So let me do that now.

Love in our modern context means something like having powerful lovely feelings for something, someone, or oneself.

Love, however, in a biblical context is the verb used to articulate the nature of God who is One in Being, but Three in Person. God Is Love because the Father eternally pours himself out for the Son who eternally pours himself out for the Father. And so also the Spirit. The three live in a perfect unity of the giving of the self without holding anything back. That is a very different thing than, “what the world needs — in order to grow, in order to relax, in order to find peace, in order to become brave — is to watch one woman at a time live her truth without asking for permission or offering explanation.” Glennon’s articulated self love, so usefully insulated from the world’s criticism, being grounded solely in the rebellious and sin poisoned human soul is of necessity narrow and hard.

Whereas God’s love gives life to the world. As I like to say to my Sunday school children about Jesus, “He didn’t hold anything back from you. He gave his whole life, down to the last drop of blood. Not a single bit of who he was did he guard or keep away from you. How else can we talk about his body being something that we eat, his blood something that we drink?” This is the basis upon which any human being can give anything to any other human being.

If you are busy loving yourself you can only take, you can only demand. And so let’s look at what is demanded of the children in this picture. “They have the love and support of their dad, me, their grandparents, their aunts and uncles, their church, their teachers, their friends’ families –all of whom have fallen as hard for Abby as they have. They’re lucky kids, to be surrounded by so much love. We have family dinners together – all six of us — and Abby cooks. (She is an AMAZING chef because Jesus loves me). We go to the kids’ school parties together. We are a modern, beautiful family. Our children are loved. So loved. And because of all of that love, they are brave.”

Glennon is claiming a multiplication of love. Look, more people to love you. Me, your dad, his new person, my person, your grandparents. We are all here together with love. And we go to the parties together and everyone is completely happy.

And yet, because this has been a business of taking for the self, rather than self giving through death, there cannot really be happiness, in the ultimate sense. I would put cash down that these children have been cut to the heart by the father’s betrayal of the mother, and now the mother’s of the father.

Why? Because marriage is a picture of Christ and his Church. Jesus, who lived in the perfection of self giving love in the Godhead as the eternal Son, set that aside to come and gather us back into that perfect love. He set aside glory and honor and beauty to come and die as the ultimate act of Love. He gained, in his death, a bride, the church. Every marriage is a shadowy retelling of the triumph of the cross. And so each time a marriage fails, that retelling is spoiled. And the whole world feels it, knows it at the core, however much we may lie and say it is good. And the people who know it most are the children, the product of that troubled retelling. Multiplying “love” when something so essential is broken is not really “love”.

Really what the children have learned is that father can’t keep his promises and mother can’t keep hers. Each time a promise is broken “love” apparently abounds. Whereas, that’s just not true. Every time a promise is broken the love that Christ has for his church is lied about. And lying doesn’t really produce happiness. It produces misery and anger.

If lying produced happiness, humanity would be peachy happy and love love love. But we are liars by nature, determined to call good evil and evil good. And observe the roiling anger, the bitterness, the unbending intolerance of individual people for other individual people, the racism, the violence. Where is all the happiness? Where is all the love? It isn’t in the hard defiant gaze of Glennon Doyle Melton. It isn’t in the collective heart of a culture that hates God and loves the self.

As I implored yesterday, prayer is of the essence. But also Christians should cling tightly to the surpassing love of God that sets aside the self, dies to the self, abandons the self, holds nothing in reserve to grasp onto the one who is perishing. His blood and love is sufficient for every grief, every brokenness, every lie.

Anne Kennedy #fundie patheos.com

(=First of a two part post/rant about Glennon Doyle Melton, a Christian blogger/author who came out as a lesbian and married a woman=)

I mentioned in our podcast yesterday the tragic downfall of Glennon Doyle Melton. I would like to point out a few obvious home truths. Incidentally, of course it would be nice to think nuanced and fascinating thoughts, to grasp at difficult insights that have not been articulated by others, to, in short, be Novel. But this point in Christian history doesn’t seem to be calling for that sort of thinking. We seem to be needing to go back to the most basic point, the expression of the most essential truths. And the most essential of all of them is...

What is love?

This foundation of Christian doctrine has been so muddled and twisted, squandered really, by the modern Westerner, that we have to keep going back to the very beginning point of Christian Faith in order to answer this tragic confusion.

So Glennon, like so many, got married, had some children, and found herself in the usual way of coping with a too difficult life, a broken relationship with herself, and a cheating husband. In the midst of this, she turned out to be a top notch writer and so wrote her way through her difficulties and troubles. Here she has my complete sympathy. I am sitting here at this very minute in desperate pursuit of mental health through writing. Writing is my life line. If I don’t write every day, I become unhinged. And gosh, isn’t it nice if people read your writing? Everyone has been reading Glennon. That I haven’t is my own fault. I need to get out more and read more. I’ve read a few of her blog posts, though, and they are breezy, brilliant. The writing is what you Want when you click on the Internet.

But good writing does not a theologian nor a Christian make. Any one of us can put ourselves out there but the church–the people who know and love God and his Son Jesus Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit of whatever denomination and background–have a duty, an obligation, to articulate the gospel clearly and repudiate those who call themselves Christian but do not adhere to basic Christian doctrine. For the sake of Glennon herself, because she has claimed the name of Christ, I find I must say no to her new way of life.

Let’s just quickly look at what she says about love, both for herself, and more troublingly, for her children. She writes, “I want you to grow so comfortable in your own being, your own skin, your own knowing – that you become more interested in your own joy and freedom and integrity than in what others think about you. That you remember that you only live once, that this is not a dress rehearsal and so you must BE who you are. I want you to refuse to betray yourself. Not just for you. For ALL OF US. Because what the world needs — in order to grow, in order to relax, in order to find peace, in order to become brave — is to watch one woman at a time live her truth without asking for permission or offering explanation.”

And about her children, “They have the love and support of their dad, me, their grandparents, their aunts and uncles, their church, their teachers, their friends’ families –all of whom have fallen as hard for Abby as they have. They’re lucky kids, to be surrounded by so much love. We have family dinners together – all six of us — and Abby cooks. (She is an AMAZING chef because Jesus loves me). We go to the kids’ school parties together. We are a modern, beautiful family. Our children are loved. So loved. And because of all of that love, they are brave.”

You can find the longer post on her Facebook page.

Let me begin by saying that throwing over your broken marriage to join with another woman isn’t actually brave any more. It’s one of the easiest choices on the table. It may not feel easy in the moment, but what you are doing is embracing a copy of yourself, and you are doing it with the culture’s complete approbation. Bravery is when you do something difficult that ought to be done but you don’t want to do it, but you do it against your desires, for the sake of another. The choice of Glennon to be with a woman is the choice to go with self expression and the love of the self over the love of another and of God.

And that’s the confusion, isn’t it? It’s everywhere. In Christianity you are called to die to yourself, to die to the very essential nature of who you are which has been so corrupted and marred by sin that it is irrevocably bound to eternal death. This is the state of the human person. Not a single human person escapes the sentence of death that came when we chose to love ourselves rather than the Other, that is God. And however painful it is to face, no one gets a pass on this sentence. We all go down the grave one by one, dust to dust, because we idolatrously chose to love ourselves rather than our Creator.

No amount of embracing the self will cure the ills of the soul. No Amount. There is nothing you can do to love yourself enough to rescue your soul from death. You can’t. There is no human solution to the death dealing cavern that separates us from God.

That is why God himself had to cross over that cavern by himself. He had to come and absorb our sin and our rejection of him in himself. That is the cross. He took our catastrophic and poisonous self love onto himself and died the death we should have died.

When we cling to him, the death we endure, though it feels very great, is actually very small. Still, it is not easy to say no to the self, to put to death that essential poisoned self. It can’t happen without God himself carrying you through to eternity.

And I really hate to say it, but this is going to have to be part one, because I have somewhere to be. But I will pick up right here tomorrow, and will probably have another part after that. I hope you who know and love Jesus will pray for Glennon and her children and her husband and her new person and plead with God to enlighten the eyes of her heart that she might finally see him for who he is. See you tomorrow!

Susan Foley #fundie patheos.com

(=Comments on Christian author Glen Melton Doyle coming out as a lesbian and subsequent marriage to a woman=)

Susan Foley: One can only imagine what the children here really think of this. Have they actually "fallen for Abby"? Is it really their desire "to watch one woman at a time live her truth without asking for permission or offering explanation" when that one woman is their mother, and "living her truth" means tearing up their family, and the permission and explanation would should have been asked from them, given to them? "Oh no, who cares what you think dear, I'm off "living my truth" and you'll just have to adapt. You'd better pretend to be happy about it too or you'll ruin the story!" We won't hear from them until they are old enough to get out from under this monster self-absorbed mother they've got.

Charlie Sutton: My bet: within three years, there will be a tempestuous break-up.

Susan Foley: Count on it. When what matters is the gratification of the present desire, because people are inconstant, when the desire changes, more promises are broken.

Jack Wellman #fundie patheos.com

It would be maniacal to believe in something that you knew was a lie and then die for that lie. You can choose to believe or not to believe but your belief does not change the historical evidence that Jesus indeed did exist and that He continues to exist. For many, they will believe too late (Dan 12:2; Rev 20:11-15). If I am wrong, then you have nothing to lose and you will cease to exist at death but if the Bible is right, and I am convinced that it is, you will have to give an account for your life after you die (Heb 9:27) but “Those who are wise shall shine. Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness. Like the stars forever and ever” (Dan 12:3). Reject this truth and you will face “shame and everlasting contempt” (Dan 12:2c).

wfmcfp #fundie patheos.com

When we force, or attempt to force, our own personal ways / requests / demands / lifestyles on others, knowing it hurts, scares, and even deeply offends these others as we do so,...are we truly interested in unity or healing? For example, gay "marriage" could have been achieved by "Civil Unions" or some other very meaningful title, but no..., traditional heterosexual one man, one woman "marriage" had to be "redefined". Why? Why this absolute demand at the cost of other's beliefs and sensibilities? Where was the unity interest demonstrated here? Differing opinions clearly existed, yet there seemed to be no desire to "work it out" together, to come up with a mutually acceptable approach. Deeply help spiritual beliefs and a century upon century definition was to be "defeated" / "turned asunder" for the 'victory' of a small group of people. Why? Was this truly a demonstration of the 'tolerance' that they'd passionately spoken of an marched for? How can one be so intolerant of another's deeply held belief as they hold a banner for tolerance? How about a baker, florist, retreat owner, losing their complete livelihood and being sued for hundreds of thousands of dollars, because although they'd served these folks for other needs, they couldn't offend their Lord to help "celebrate" what they feel is a Holy Covenant between one man/one woman? Where is the desire for "getting along", "unity", "live and let live", and "tolerance" here? Where? Love....true love....doesn't care to offend, put down, or demand, yet there is no loving caring "two way street". No, it's my way or the highway! We will make you pay if we don't get what we want! Why? Getting along will require a "two way street" on issues which divide, which offend deeply held foundational religious views, etc.... Real Love, true tolerance, genuine inclusiveness....cannot demand others simply disregard or go against their deeply held religious / personal beliefs. These people love their families, their children, and their children's children and desire to teach them to understand what they hold to be Truth. Why are their rights not held up along side those seeking new rights and societal changes? Why? Love, respect, tolerance, unity...all require a more thoughtful and caring process....one which is far less "in your face"!

See Noevo #fundie patheos.com

See Noevo: “Thou Shalt Not Be Gay” No. More like ‘A man shalt not have sex with another man, nor a woman with another woman.’ (cf. Rom 1:26-27)

HudBud: I don't know what's more mind blowing, the fact you got the verses mixed up or that it warranted likes.

See Noevo: "I don't know what's more mind blowing..." Poor guy. You must have blowing on your mind.

Mike Bird #fundie #homophobia patheos.com

Answering President Jed Bartlet on the Bible and Sexuality

I have been very gradually working my way through The West Wing, currently up to Season 2 and I just saw this epic scene where President Jed Bartlett lays into some conservative Christian radio show host for her views about homosexuality.

I’ve heard this line of argument several times, it latches onto something genuinely problematic which most Christians have a hard time explaining, so I thought it might be a good idea to offer my own response to President Jed Bartlet:

Dear President Bartlet,

Sir, I just saw your rather dramatic lambasting of Dr. Jenna Jacobs for her views on homosexuality. You speak with great passion and conviction on the subject and are rightly concerned that pious people will use religious texts as a license to treat LGBT persons with hatred and indifference. I sincerely appreciate that concern and I applaud it.

As a biblical scholar myself I have to confess that I was seriously impressed with your ability to recall biblical passages from the Pentateuch by memory. You are obviously a veteran of a very rigorous Sunday School program and you can recall Scripture with a precision that would leave many rabbis envious of your abilities. You obviously have spent a lot of time reading the Bible and you take it very seriously. I appreciate that too.

Let me say also that I don’t know Dr. Jacobs, I don’t listen to her show, I have no desire to defend her as I imagine that she and I probably do not see eye to eye on social issues and how to express a Christian view point about them. Still, I do wonder if you gave a Christian view of the Bible and sexuality a fair go, at least as a biblical theologian might express them.

The problem is that you are right, there are some very strange prohibitions in the Bible about combining fabrics together, planting crops side by side, laws pertaining to slavery, and stoning the less scrupulously observant of religion. The Old Testament contains things that are not only weird, but look callous and cruel even to those brought up with a deep reverence for the Bible.

Sir, I do not presume to lecture you on matters of religion, but it seems to me like you want to say in effect, “You believe what the Old Testament says about homosexuality, so then, do you believe all the crazy rules and regulations in the Old Testament too?” That is a good question and such a question requires an obvious “no,” since Christians themselves would concur that they are not bound to obey all the Old Testament regulations. But the matter I wish to press Mr. President is that you have overlooked how Christians read the Old Testament as Scripture and how they use Scripture to construct their own mode of moral discourse.

Please indulge me for a few short moments Mr. President in the hope that I can illuminate your understanding of the Bible and help you better appreciate how Christians use the Bible in their moral reasoning.

First, the Old Testament regulations were for a specific moment in Israel’s history and are not prescriptive for all time. The purpose of the law was to equip the Israelites to survive in the harsh context of the ancient near east. To tease that our further, the purpose of the law was to protract Israel’s capacity to worship God, to cocoon God’s purposes around Israel, to keep the Israelites separate from the peoples of Canaan, to teach Israel about human sin and divine holiness, and to point to the messianic deliverer whom God would send in the future. Many of these laws are not ideal (such as divorce as Jesus himself taught), other laws are a liberalization of ancient practices but still not particularly pleasant (like the treatment of slaves), many laws are related to the specific context of the ancient near east (like inter-tribal warfare), and several laws censure things that seem odd to us like consuming blood (because of its link to pagan worship). So, even from a Christian perspective, we have to say that Old Testament laws were a survival measure in a hostile environment, they were addressing cultures as they were rather than how they might be, they were incremental attempts to bring light to a world that was brutal and dark, and the laws were preparatory for something better rather than final. These laws might be God’s first word on how human should live before him, but they were certainly not the last word either.

Second, the Old Testament is strictly speaking not prescriptive for Christian ethics. That is not because the Old Testament is a bad thing that has been done away with, but because it is a good thing that has been fulfilled by Jesus Christ. I would suggest that the basis of Christian ethics is largely three things: (1) The example of Jesus and the apostles; (2) The teachings of Jesus and the apostles; and (3) Life in the Spirit. The Old Testament Law then is not the constitution for a Christian society, not the content of Christian ethics, nor the catalyst for Christian social reform. Instead, the Law is more like a consultant for Christian beliefs, embodying a form of wisdom on how to fear the Lord, how to walk in his ways, and how to love him. We are not bound to its letter, but we ignore its teachings to the peril our own spiritual ignorance.
Third, if the Old and New agree on one thing, it is this: the supremacy of love. Both Testaments agree that love of God and love of neighbour are the core concerns and truest teachings of Law. We read the commands: “Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength” (Deut 6:5) and similarly “love your neighbor as yourself” (Lev 19:18). This is precisely what Jesus himself argued according to the Evangelists where Jesus said: “’Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments” (Matt 22:37-40). Even the Apostle Paul, though often maligned for his views of women and homosexual behavior, said: “For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself’” (Gal 5:14).

When it comes to the issue of sexuality and marriage, Christians should not rush to Leviticus or Deuteronomy searching for proof texts for their beliefs. The first thing to note is that Genesis teaches that God made men and women in his image, and that marriage is rooted in a sexual ecology of the complementarity of men and women oriented towards the creation of a family (Gen 1:26-28). What is more, this is something that Jesus affirmed (Mark 10:6-9). On top of that, there are prescriptions about homosexual acts outside Leviticus made by the Apostle Paul (Rom 1:26-27; 1 Cor 6:9; 1 Tim 1:10). And while these prescriptions are disputed – are they only about pederasty, an aggressive bi-sexuality, excessive lust, or limited to cultic prostitution – generally they are regarded by most scholars as censuring homoerotic behavior. Of course, if you think Jesus and Paul were just wrong and you care to disagree with them, that is fine, but please understand that that is not an attractive option for those of us who wish to affirm what our own tradition teaches on marriage and sexuality.

Mr. President, at the end of the day Christian ethics are based on love not law: love for God and love for our neighbors. Christians, within the precincts of their own consciences, cannot affirm behavior that they believe Scripture prohibits. The wisdom of our tradition is that sexuality is a gift from God, leading us to affirm celibacy in singleness and faithfulness in marriage. Yet because of the command to love their neighbours, you can expect Christians to always treat people, irrespective of gender, race, religion, and sexual orientation, with compassion and dignity, as we ourselves would want to be treated. If you wish to wag a finger at Christians for their hypocrisy, and I hope you do, citing texts from Leviticus is probably not the best way to do that. Much better is to accuse Christians of not keeping Jesus’ commands to love their gay neighbor, point out that they have not followed Jesus’ example to welcome those who polite society has rejected, and they have not embraced the lost for whom Jesus said he came to save! That is a word of rebuke Christians need to hear time and again.

That is my two cents on the matter Sir. I wish you all the best in the coming election season.

PS, watch out for that Jeff Haffley guy, he’s a sly old critter!

aedgeworth #fundie patheos.com

Well, you agreed with them that the geologic column can't be found in one location, which is what they asked for. Your interpretation of it has a few problems such as missing layers, revered layers, fossils in the wrong layers, etc. Catastrophism fits the scientific evidence much better than uniformitarianism. Gravity isn't a theory, it is a law. It is amazing how many evolutionists don't understand the difference. But, if you can't answer their arguments, just use name-calling. A clear sign of your intelligence level.

I read the other day those finches on the Galapagos Islands are still finches, and the peppered moths in England are still peppered moths. How exactly does that prove one of my great grandpas was a complex chemical or a rock, depending on how far back I want to take my family tree of course. I know you haven't figured this out yet, so I'll help you out. Whenever someone tells you a story that starts out "billions" or "millions" of years ago; whatever they tell you from that point on, they made it up.

Why don't you just come out and say it? You hate God, you hate the Bible, you hate Jesus, you hate Christians, and you hate the idea that you might spend eternity in hell. We all know that is why you are hanging onto the fairy tale of evolution. You might as well be honest about it. But, I would guess that isn't one of your strong points. Eternity is a long time to be wrong!

scottmontgomery #fundie patheos.com

(Regarding a blog post on polygamy)

Clearly this author doesn't understand that some of her examples were stated as opposed to God's will (Genesis), the Rabbinic Code as Jesus summed up, given after the Israelites refused covenant with God, because their hearts were hardened, and circumstances only for widowed women. The Bible was always one man and one woman for marriage as God's stated purpose. when you see kingdoms in Judah or Israel whereby the king had numerous wives, they did not last and for that reason

CoffeH #fundie patheos.com

(=This fundie trolls a thread with pictures of athiests or agnostics who committed to prove athiesm is evil=)

CoffeeH: Another atheist kid who thought he could manage his own purpose. Eric Harris.

Iain Lovejoy: I am a Christian, and you purport to be so, so I'll speak to you Christian to Christian (and I'm sorry if this little speech is out of place in an atheist blog). Seriously, WTF is wrong with you? Is your "purpose in life" to persuade as many people as possible that Christianity turns you into a d*ck? I am struggling to see how anyone who has even had a brief glimpse of the love of God, or comprehended anything at all of the character of Jesus could write this stuff. Are you an atheist deliberately trying to discredit religion? Why do you hate your fellow human beings so? God loved sinners (even the lost souls whose pictures you put up) to such an extent he permitted them to kill him in order to save them, and forgave them while they did so; haven't you read the Bible? John said that we cannot purport to love God we cannot see if we do not love our neighbour we can see, and that is because it is our fellow human beings who carry God's image into the world. All these shooters killed because they (rightly or wrongly) felt rejected and despised by the world. By their neighbour. By us. By you. If they had no "purpose" in life it was because they felt their own life worthless, because they felt hated, or despised, or treated with contempt, and returned hate with hate. So what do you do? You hate. You tell people who haven't had the good fortune to have a glimpse of God in the world that that makes them useless, or evil, or somehow worse than anyone else. You smugly post pictures of broken,lost people as if it proved anything other than your own desperate brokenness and need of God. Over and over I feel compelled to apologise for people like you. People who use the name "Christian" which I ought to be proud of, and make it an embarrassment, a burden, something to be ashamed of. Well I'm fed up. The Bible has only one character that constantly accuses human beings of sin, that demands their punishment and spews out libel against those who are good. Only one character that hates mankind and seeks to consign them to hell. That character is the Accuser ("Satan" in Greek). Your father whom you bandy about is not God but the Accuser and I am sick to death of people serving his purposes while his claiming to be serving God. OK. Deep breath. Rant over. God loves you as he loves every one of those lost souls whose pictures you have posted. You may have no knowledge of him, and have mistaken hatred for love, the Accuser for the Redeemer, but he does not give up he will one day free you from whatever pit of loathing you have confined yourself. And when he does you will find the doubters and atheists who love their fellow men at God's table waiting for you - anyone who loves his neighbour, who is God's child, and the world, which is God's creation, loves God better than someone who wraps himself in religious-speak, hates his neighbour and worships his own hatred and calls it God.

Raging Bee: Also, I notice you seem to be aware of how wrong the alt-right are; but you're only using that to attack atheists, instead of attacking the alt-right directly. Maybe you're the one lacking a decent purpose here.

CoffeeH: I think anyone finding their purpose in the alt-right is not finding their purpose in God.

Iain Lovejoy: Big whoopee, now you are preening yourself you are not an out-and-out Nazi (or possibly just that you aren't any worse). If you want to call yourself a Christian, perhaps you might hold yourself to slightly higher standards?

CoffeeH: Every day, we hear the garbage that religion causes most of the harm in the world or ever. It's BS. Sometimes, people need to see how wrong they are. It's ok.

Iain Lovejoy: Don't give me that. It is anything but "OK". If you want to do Christianity a service, take down your garbage and apologise. All you are doing is demonstrating precisely why people think religion causes harm, and indeed doing the exact harm people complain about. Your job as a Christian is to display God's love in the world, you are doing the opposite. If this school shooter is an atheist, it is precisely people like you, and the shameful behaviour they (and you) display towards anyone not sharing their beliefs or fitting in that helped produce the social isolation and bitterness that broke his mind. Love your enemies, welcome the stranger and the outcast, see God in every human being and welcome them in, show them God in your actions and love. That is Christianity. At least try and be a Christian this one time and stop this.

Jo Brown #fundie #homophobia patheos.com

People stop homosexuals from marrying each other, or try to oppose homosexual practices, not because they have sin in their hearts, but because homosexuality is a sin and the people caught in it should not be encouraged to continue in it or allowed to lead others into it. Opposition to homosexuality is not because homosexuals are special or fabulous. In fact, being caught in the sin of homosexuality doesn't mean that you're automatically special or fabulous. That's just not logical. There are dullards and douchebags in every segment of society, including the gay one.
There's good reason why the bible forbids homosexuality. Just look at what's happened to society as the biblical moral restraints have been relaxed more and more. People are getting involved in ever more perverted sexual practices and general lawlessness, and it's bringing down the whole of society.
I've yet to read the links that purport to show how the bible allegedly doesn't teach that homosexuality is a sin, but I'm expecting a lot of scripture-twisting and logical fallacies and appeals to emotion and love. (yeah, like love should never be tough aye?)
One thing I wonder about, are all these gay christians happy to remain completely celibate until they've found and married their life partner? (And choose to remain married for life too of course.) Or, since they feel that homosexuality is biblically OK, it's therefore also OK to be sexually promiscuous and engage in fornication and adultery? Since the homosexual lifestyle is so much about hedonism, promiscuity, and fornication, I suspect it's the latter.

I've read the arguments for gay relationships and sure enough there's a bit of scripture twisting going on. Drawing rather a long bow by claiming gay relationships for David and Jonathan, and Ruth and Naomi, the Roman centurion's and his servant, and that the Ethiopian enuch was gay, NONE of which are clearly and unambiguously stated but that is merely the inference preferred by gay people because it suits them. And what is initially postulated as "might be" and "could be" later magically transmogrifies into cold hard fact, upon which the rest of the house of cards is built. Then they go on about the hebrew words for shrine prostitutes (both male and female) and imply that therefore Leviticus 18:22 is not talking about homosexual sex but about sex with shrine prostitutes. Trouble is, Leviticus 18:22 does not use the words for shrine prostitutes, so if it's meant to be speaking against sex with shrine prostitutes why doesn't it simply use the words for shrine prostitutes? Answer: Because it's not talking about shrine prostitutes but about men having sex with men, plain and simple.
One must also ask why the one book in the bible that deals almost exclusively with erotic love (Song of Songs) does not depict any relationship EXCEPT that between a man and a woman. If the bible is supposed to be pro-gay, why the glaring omission in Song of Songs?

So, no, I'm not convinced.
I'm horrified that people would interpret scripture so permissively that it ends up saying something totally different from what a straightforward reading of it suggests. It's like looking at a black dog and saying well because of X, Y, and Z we have to conclude that it's really a white dog. And then staking your eternal destiny on that. Yikes! I think it's wiser to step back from the line, not over it.

DM #fundie #homophobia patheos.com

(=A response to "Clobbering Biblical Gay Bashing=)

You lost me at: "so I’m not even having that discussion" If you build a whole argument on something that is highly debatable but you won't acknowledge there is another opinion then it is difficult to engage you in the rest of your conversation.

The Bible is very clear on homosexuality- it is a sin. Sleeping with someone before marriage is a sin, cheating on a spouse is a sin, drinking to excess is a sin. A sin is a sin and everyone on this earth has sinned. If you talk to an informed Christian they will admit that these are all sins and that not one is more severe than another. A Christian will do well to love everybody as their brother and sister in Christ but will also do well to point out an error to them when they are in the wrong. The Bible does warn that we shouldn't judge but 2 Timothy 3:16 (NIV) tells us- All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness

The difference between homosexuality and other sins is that one becomes hardened to it. There are other sins that one hardens themselves to but homosexuality is one of the most prominent because it usually isn't a one time thing but more so a lifestyle. The real problem is that when someone becomes hardened to a sin they become separated from God.

What you are saying is discrediting the Bible and like many other people of the times you are trying to read the Bible to fit your opinion. Instead I would encourage you to pray to God and ask him for wisdom to understand the scriptures as it was intended, not as you want to read in to it. Biblical truths are not always popular, but they are truths-
Matthew 7:24- (ESV) “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock.
and
Isaiah 5:20 (ESV) Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

Thanks be to God that Christ came to earth as true God and true man, lived the perfect life in our place to be the atoning sacrifice for all of our sins, homosexuality, adultery, murder, etc... Because of this love by God for us we are washed in his blood through this perfect sacrifice for OUR sins. Those that believe in this WILL have eternal life. But my friends please don't be the one that tries to change what God's word actually says and twists his words or follow such false teachings.

2 Timothy 4:2-4 (ESV)- For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

Love your brother and sister in Christ, get to know them on a personal level, help them with their struggles. Furthermore explain to them the love of Christ and what he did for all sinners. Importantly when someone is caught in a Satan's snare and is trapped in a sin point the sin out to the sinner in love and gently bring them back to Christ so that their sin may not cost them their faith in God. Remember it isn't our words that will do the work but God and the Holy Spirit working through them!

Monty #fundie patheos.com

Monty: God did not create us the way we have become. God made us morally neutral and we chose to be the way we are. Be glad I'm not God. I'd just have wiped everyone and started again. God loves us and has provided the answer, doing for us what we cannot do for ourselves. We are fatally flawed. Even the most noble and upright of people have a dark side. God has already revealed Himself. He is not the problem, we are! We are born spiritually blind. God came to the earth in the form of a man. His name is Jesus. Jesus went about healing, delivering, and even raising the dead. We have eyewitness accounts. I can assure you that that kind of miracle still happens. I was healed from a severely damaged liver caused by alcohol abuse. Jesus came to earth knowing what was in store for Him. The perfect man was killed by those He came to help. Jesus sacrificed Himself so that anyone who accepts Him can experience eternal life. Jesus did not stay dead! He rose again and he lives right now. If you believe only in evolution, how come man is going backwards? The world is not safer, saner, healthier, more tolerant, more forgiving and more loving. How come we do the things that we know are harmful to us? We drink to excess, way overeat even though we know it's bad for us, we are destroying our home (the earth), then we want to export all our dysfunction to the rest of the universe!

ChrisDACase95:
What does evolution have to do with an interpetation of the cross ?

Monty: Nothing. Evolution is a myth. People use evolution in order to deny the fact that God created us in His image.I was responding to Matt Woodling. I assumed that he believes in evolution as he denies that God exists or if He does, has no interest in His creation. Evolution is the usual belief of people who deny God. I've not come across another belief apart from some really wacky alien theories.

Mark #fundie patheos.com

I can't help thinking about it when the gay community keep whinging for "equal rights". They don't want equal rights, they already have them. What they really want is to get their perversions legalized.

Convention of States #conspiracy patheos.com

In report after report following Donald Trump’s election, career staffers at the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration kept saying the same thing: climate change is real, serious and man-made.
That’s surprising because Trump has called global warming a hoax. His political appointees at the Commerce Department, which oversees NOAA, have complained to its staff, but stopped short of demanding changes or altering the findings. So the reports, blog posts and public updates kept flowing. The bureaucrats won.
“Everything coming out of NOAA does not reflect this administration,” said David Schnare, a retired lawyer for an industry-backed think tank who served on Trump’s transition team and is skeptical about climate change. “It reflects the last one.”
That’s true across the government as some of the roughly two million career staff have found ways to obstruct, slow down or simply ignore their new leader, the president.
Staff at the Securities and Exchange Commission, for example, issued a report contradicting the White House’s position about the negative effects of banking regulations. The State Department’s embassy staff preserved Obama-era programs to boost the economies of developing countries — at odds with Trump’s “America First” campaign pledges — not by changing the substance of the programs but merely by relabeling them as a way to create markets for U.S. exports.

The President can’t “drain the swamp” under these conditions. The only way to reduce the size and scope of the federal government is by allowing the people and the states to take control via an Article V Convention of States.

shawn.erpexp #fundie patheos.com

(=Revarding the sexual assault by Andy Savage=)

It's really important that we speak truthfully, without hyperbole, when discussing a situation like this. What he did was sinful. It was immoral and repugnant. It wasn't sexual assault and it wasn't illegal.

Why do you feel the need to exaggerate what was done in terms of man's law when it definitely broke God's law?

Mark Bradshaw #fundie #homophobia patheos.com

Mark Bradshaw: The author stated: "For instance, does it make any sense for a Christian to pluck Old Testament verses from their original historical and cultural context in order to clobber others, given that we are not under the Law but under Grace? It seems it would be a con to the very faith we proclaim!" ------- While we ARE under God's grace (through the sacrifice Jesus made on the cross), He (God) STILL CONDEMNS sinful behavior and we are to STILL abide by his law. Part of that law is that certain behaviors are STILL considered sin. Among them is the behavior of homosexuality (and all sexual behavior outside of man-woman marriage. Jesus said that we are to sin no more. If all sin is forgiven, then to what sin was He referring? Moral law established in the Old Testament is STILL valid and in effect. Moral law did not simply disappear because Jesus died for our sins. We are forgiven for our sins when we accept the gift of forgiveness from Jesus and develop a relationship with Him. The road to God and eternal fellowship with Him is through Jesus and Jesus alone. We are to rebuke and reject ALL sin both in ourselves and others. One must first recognize sinful behavior before one can truly reject it. And, only through Jesus can we truly reject sin.
see more

glenbo: >>"Moral law established in the Old Testament is STILL valid and in effect."<< Therefore, we can own, buy, sell and beat slaves to death. Women must marry their rapists. We are to murder anyone who dares to work on the Sabbath. And we are to murder all homosexuals. This is GOD'S Morality. And as Christians, you are bound to uphold it.

Mark Bradshaw: Uh, NO. You clearly do NOT understand God's law. Slavery was NOT part of God's moral law, therefore your assertion is fallacious. Same with women being require to marry their rapists - that is part of ceremonial law. Again, same with the Sabbath - part of ceremonial law and not in effect. "And we are to murder all homosexuals." ----- AGAIN, FALSE. this part of God's law was forgiven through Jesus Christ.

Richard Williams #fundie patheos.com

Carmine Bracale: Wake up, Carl. One cannot hate a myth, only the horror that an outdated myth unleashes on the world. You keep presenting a god that is not one whit better than the mythical god of the Aztecs, who demanded human sacrifice, or Moloch how demanded human sacrifice, or any of the other mythical pagan gods who fed on the blood of those naive enough or foolish enough to follow them. Can any sane person posit an ALL POWERFUL god who could eliminate the evil in the world with a simple 'fiat'....but instead, fashions himself into an equally mythical son and forces that son to undergo the most gruesome death immagineable. No sane creator would ever be responsible for the horrors commanded by the god of the bible. And it is ONLY the bible that you have, on which to base your 'love' for Jesus Christ....a personage for whose existence there is not the tiniest shred of evidence. You claim to 'hate' religion, yet without it your mythical beings would have no existence at all. They certainly are not posited by science, or supported by logic. And the nonsense of a 'personal relationship God in Christ in nothing more than a hope, a wish, a dream.... just a nice fuzzy warm feeling. I have enough nice, fuzzy warm feelings in my life, I don't need anymore. And please try not to confuse a righteous hatred of religious bigotry with 'hatefullness'. If there WERE a Universal Creator, he/she/it would have not the slightest resemblance to your god, or to your Christ. And please, don't insult me with your prayers: I neither need or want them. If you MUST pray, pray for the families of those who have been killed or persecuted by the followers of your Christ! That would make, at least, a bit of sense.

Richard Williams: Ok, that is quite enough. Admit how despicable humans can be in how they treat others, how about? What do you do with people who treat humans despicably and will not change? God had every right to get rid of them. This is the God you are talking about who actually cares about the direction of the lives of human beings. This is the context that God asked the Israelites to kill. It wasn't because they were of a particular race or language, it was because their sin had gotten so bad that it was a plague to the world around them. We who have made comments like yours have probably not experienced such a culture and it is easy for us to make blanket statements regarding something we are ignorant about. God is not ignorant like that. God acted in love for those who would possibly choose to live a better life when He made the plans to get rid of these particular peoples. Only people filled with the same sadistic evil of those people would not be able to see how badly these people were embroiled in sin.

Josh #fundie #homophobia patheos.com

It comes down to this: a Christian is someone who has repented and turned to believe in the salvation that Christ bought with His blood on the cross after He was buried and resurrected. I don't see how a God who hates sin could allow us to practice it willingly. Does He forgive us when we sin? To those who have accepted His salvation, yes. Is there a possibility you will sin after you are saved? Absolutely. But the fact of the matter is you should be walking with Jesus towards seeing holiness in your life, or freedom from sin. You were freed when you were saved but it takes time to see it work out in your life. There is no point where a truly saved Christian should think: God is ok with my sin and I can live this way. Sin separates and either you are separated from Him eternally through rejecting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, or separated momentarily through sinning in your relationship with Him.

But you are not walking in the Spirit and having homosexual sex with a man, whether you are married or single. The verse in Leviticus that labels homosexuality an abomination has been fulfilled in Christ. So if something is fulfilled do you now do the opposite of what it said? No by standing in the righteousness of Jesus Christ Who fulfilled the Law, you stand in the righteousness as if you completed each Law yourself. That means in your personal life you uphold the notion that same gender sex is an abomination. You do not turn to another point of view; it would be outside of Scripture not to.

To address Matthew Vines' arguments, God did not need to create a partner suitable for gay man because man was not created to be gay, or else he would be in the garden with Adam. Homosexuality came about after sin entered in. Read Genesis 1-3 and tell me if you see any mention of homosexuality.

Honestly, it doesn't matter if a homosexual man feels like he has to be "celibate" for the rest of his life, or if because of the scriptural teachings of the bible the homosexual is left feeling hurt, torn, and has their dreams broken of becoming married to another man. It doesn't matter because Jesus is trying to emphasize that this was never intended and if a gay person has to learn that they must give up these things as they follow Him so be it. It's better than the alternative; living in the lie of thinking that the Bible approves homosexuality and end up in hell for all eternity because you never truly knew the real Jesus- the Jesus of the Bible.

The real Jesus through His Holy Spirit convicts man of sin. Man has long been convicted of homosexuality as being a sin before this past couple generations who believe orientation is a choice. That's another mistake: to believe that God was not omnipotent enough when writing the Bible to know that there would be gay people trying to find their place. And I tell you He did:
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. (?2 Timothy? ?4?:?3-4? KJV)

So the answer is this: homosexuality is a sin. God does not condone it neither does His Word. He hates it but He loves you. It is more important ending up in heaven forever living for Jesus correctly than ending up in hell listening to some guy who doesn't believe the Word of God is the final authority and says that it's ok to live the way you were before you got saved. And then maybe the question is how do you know if you're truly saved to begin with? The gospel is simply stated as so:
But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (?Romans? ?10?:?8-11, 13? KJV)

That's it. If you've repented and believed the Gospel and called on the name of Jesus you shall be saved. I hope that God spoke through me tonight. I hope and pray that someone some time is helped by this post. I hate seeing people deceived and I hate seeing deceivers lead people, who don't know any better, into a lie that could cost them their life. Well I pray that God blesses you guys and Jesus saves you :) I hope to see you all in heaven :)

Bruce Atkinson #fundie #homophobia patheos.com

The whole issue of homosexuality is deliberately rigged in God's favor. Just check out the scriptures:: Matthew 19:4-6 (defining marriage), Genesis 1-2 (defining the image of God as male and female), Genesis 18-19 (Sodom and Gomorrah), Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20:13,
Deuteronomy 23:18, Romans 1:26-27, 1 Corinthians 6:9, and 1 Timothy 1:10. Jude 1:7 refers to Genesis 19:1-11, the Sodom and Gomorrah incident. These scriptures condemn homosexual behavior as sin, even calling it an abomination that of course, without repentance and amendment of life, will keep you out of heaven. Additionally, there are many more scriptures that condemn sexual sin in general, which is defined as any sexual behavior outside of male-female marriage (this then must logically include homosexual behavior).

Chastity, sexual purity and sexual faithfulness in marriage are virtues valued highly all through the Bible. Their opposite is always condemned. I challenge dissenters to show me the scriptures which say that homosexuality is a good thing or even to be tolerated. They never can meet this challenge because such scriptures don’t exist. In order to maintain the heresy that committed homosexual relationships (and the sexual acts which accompany them) are not sin, a person must of necessity disbelieve and denigrate scripture. This means ignoring it, demeaning it, minimizing its authority, revising it, or re-interpreting it to fit one’s own point of view. This is because the scriptures are quite clear about sex being only right and holy within heterosexual marriage.

Denny #fundie patheos.com

Paul is widely hated by the left, including the "Christian" left because of what he taught regarding sexuality and the role of women. If you defend the inspired character of Paul's writings, you will be called a "Paulist instead of a Christian" by the homosexual activists and feminists. They are obviously ignorant of Christian history. There is no such thing as a Paul-free Christianity. Accept the writings of Paul as part of the divine canon of Scripture, or go start a different religion, because there is no Christianity without Paul.

Shep Voice #fundie patheos.com

For over 35 years I lived in a heavily gay area. I saw them almost every day in and around my building. In the 70s I happened to see a show about the "gay agenda" and it was quite clear they meant business, that no one was going to get in their way. A number of those living in and around my building also made it quite clear that no one was going to get in their way. I was a personal witness to their actions and corruption. Therefore, I write with authority. The world is in for a rude awakening if they continue down the path of acceptance of this abomination.

Shep Voice #fundie patheos.com

[=A response to an article writing grief following the Orlando Massacre and how Christians should respond=]

To Josh Daffern,

First, it is very important to understand this: The truth must come before emotions and feelings (Jn 4:24). Why? For one thing emotions and feelings can deceive you where the real truth is a never changing constant (Jn 14:6; Prov 30:5-6; 1 Cor 4:6). We must also understand that no-one can live without breaking God's eternal law=sin that separates us from God. Some get into one or more sins more than another, some deeper into particular sins more than others.

Further, Jesus did not walk among the sinners to join in with them. He came to save sinners, to show them the way out of their sins (repentance - if they will not repent they will be worthless). He did not show worldly love to them nor did He celebrate anything with them (Jesus knew everything that would be written in the legit Bible). That is because He fully understood the difference between God's true love and repentance and man's foolish ideas of what love is coming from their sin nature (Lk 14:26; Rom 12:*9; Mt 6:24; Gal 1:10; Jam 4:*4; 1 Jn 2:*15; Amos 5:15; Jn 2:*24-25; 7:7,**24; 17:*9; Lk 9:**60 [the unsaved are dead already]; 23:51; 2 Cor 5:*16).

The problem many make is not understanding that you cannot just take a few verses and form a teaching from them. To achieve true interpretation and right understanding takes use of both the OT and NT together, along with the careful comparing and weighing every verse, passage, chapter and book against every other of the 66 legit Bible books (Jn 7:24 - includes right judgment for everything written in the Bible).

Only then can we begin to understand the true connections and differences between the OT and the NT and the actual one true interpretation (while being very careful not to add or omit anything from the Bible [Prov 30:6; 1 Cor 4:6] = There is only one God, one Jesus Christ, one Holy Spirit and one truth that stands forever unchanged [all of these are in full agreement and full compliance] = only one true interpretation is correct. Jesus was not talking out 2 nor 1000s of sides of His mouth=non confusion=the absolute truth.

What does all this mean with respect to your article? True Christians are not to do anything that even gives the appearance that we accept, support, promote or that we are participating in what God, Jesus and Jesus' fully trained Apostles have declared are in fact abominations against God, homosexuality being one of the main ones. In other words, mourning is mostly restricted to mourning the death of other Christians or members of their families dependant on what they were into if not Chistian. Also, true Christians are not to kill, gloat over or celebrate the unsaved's deaths.

One main issue overlooked by some is the fact that one cannot remain Christian if they continue in behavior that is an abomination. While humanly many Christians want to openly feel sorry for the deaths in Orlando, be emotional and have compassion for them it can only be very limited because the reality is they need to turn to Jesus for real and get away from that behavior because Hell is a real place.

The truth is that these deaths are a warning from God just as other deaths are warnings from God that they better turn to Jesus before it is too late. The Bible makes it clear that worse is coming and the more they pursue such behaviors the greater the destruction that will be coming soon (it is the end-times and eventually God's patience will run out and He will more and more lift His restraint on the devil, allowing him more and more power over the unsaved.

Eventually, the unsaved will insist on their evil ways to the point that they will make great effort to kill and get rid of Christians. Again, the Orlando massacre is just another hint of what God is going to allow to happen (see Mat 24, Mk 13, Lk 21, 2 Thes 2, Dan 11 & 12 and Rev). There is a great difference between right God's love and wrong "worldly" love. We need to rightly fully understand the difference or there will be a chance that you will be deceived (1 Cor 14:7-8).

Obviously, true Christians should not be supporting killing others as we are all sinners but the unsaved do need to know that what they are doing is in fact an abomination which God hates and His anger and wrath will grow as they refuse to repent (Jer 23:20). Find and carefully study my other posts. They all go together.

Shep Voice #fundie patheos.com


JuliaRomanov16: The Truth is sometimes terrible. You cannot "disagree" with homosexuality, it is a fact. It is also a fact that many gay people, including children, commit suicide because they are told that homosexual attraction is an illness not to be reconciled with a good christian life. Countless other children are thrown out into the streets with some forced to turn to prostitution to survive. What i have told you does not even scratch the surface of the hate and indignities that the LGBTQ community face on a regular basis. So yes Yvonne must want us dead. The fact that she won't pick up a gun and kill us directly, but instead wants to use "respectable" means, makes her a coward.

Shep Voice: Actually, it is God who will want them dead as they refuse to believe that He made us and that He sent His Son to save you even from yourself. Jesus is the Physician, the only one who can rewire our brains to accept what is right in God's eyes. Otherwise, you will be part of the rebellion, the one that God hates. Again, many ways SEEM right but its end is death=Hell. Jesus is the only way out (the reason He came to earth).

Shep Voice #fundie #homophobia patheos.com

[=Looking at the guys disqus profile, you see that he goes on this rant on numerous pages following the Orlando Massacre in 2016=]

Some say homosexuality harms no one but this is not true. If it was simply about “separation” of church & state that might be 1 thing. But its not:

“Normalizing” same sex relationships & marriage does have a major negative impact, harming hetrosexual families. You may not understand “cause & effect” consquences but by approving same sex lifestyles you have a negative effect on inocent gullible impressionable children. They copy adult behavior.

I call it the “undertow effect” as more children get swept into this behavior. They start with thinking 2 guys kissing or holding hands, etc. is normal behavior & later that its not bad & some take it farther. It will make it easier for gays to recruit more older children right under your nose – cause & effect laws of physics which cannot be broken w/o Jesus in your life=breakdown of the fabric of society just as Jesus prophecied 2000 years ago=spiritually selling & eating your children=acceleration of slavery to sin. The world & the US are making a grave mistake approving gay marriage.

The gay perversion is 1 of the hardest sins to get out of because it goes to the very core of your brain, spirit & being (internal sins are the worst. Its why the Bible calls it an abomination). The gay perversion is like a social cancer. Leave it in place & it will spread though out the body. Its now spreading through out society. Many ways SEEM right but its end=death (Hell, where you live alone forever). Find and carefully study my other posts. They all go together.

There are real reasons for not accepting gay and related behaviors as normal. Thus not all who are against homosexuality are homophobic nor are all whom are against such behaviors coming from hate as a motive.

Pride comes before the fall of a man. Pride parades come before the fall of mankind. However, many confuse TRUTH (upsets & offends many) and HATE. Telling someone the truth does not mean you hate them. Many ways SEEM right but its end=death (Hell).

Sleeping with/marrying your own gender is in effect SLEEPING WITH/MARRYING YOURSELF which equals being LOVER OF SELF which is an abomination [God's VALID REASON against this practice (right vs wrong love)]. It wrongly distorts, merges and blurs God’s male/female creation differences, characteristics, attributes and purpose-Lev 18:22, Rom 1:26-32, 1 Pet 4:3-4: Gal 5:19-21: 1 Cor 6:18-20. Also, even 1 man/1 woman marriages cannot be rightly put together w/o understanding God’s purpose for it (why there are so many divorces).

Accepting, promoting or participating in gay lifestyles are against God. You cannot remain a Christian if you do these things. It mocks God. Jesus was not talking out 2 nor 1000s of sides of His mouth=no confusion. Only one God can occupy true 360 deg infinity and that God is the God of Israel. Two true 360 deg infinities can not exist at the same time. Occupying this position you can never die=no other legit gods can exist.

Also, under the NT slavery (and killing anyone) was never approved. Neither God nor Jesus were ever into race nor were they ever against interracial marriage. What comes from God lasts forever. What comes from man, including his manmade religions & gods die with him. Why should God want you to live with Him forever if you do not want to know Him, His way, not yours?

Because God is real and made Commandments to His true believers, they must in turn not accept anything God does not approve of. In fact, true Christians should only grieve for the families (not the dead) in private or among themselves. They should not do anything publicly that even looks like they support homosexuality (it is called an abomination because it goes to the very core of one's brain and soul, making it one of the hardest sins to get out of=worst sins). We are not even to look like we accept, support and/or we are participating in their sin as that makes it look like we are promoting their sin which the Bible warns us not to do.

In other words, true Christians do not go to gay anything (i.e. clubs, parades, weddings, wakes, funerals, stores, watch gay shows [like the primetime ones aimed at children], movies (drives up ratings) or send your children to Boy Scouts or other organizations, etc. that install gays as leaders or try to get children to see gays as normal.

If a preacher said to kill them he is dead wrong. However, many are making a huge mistake. There is a huge difference between God's true love and worldly ideas of what love is coming from their sin nature and lack of understanding of who God and Jesus are. There is no use praying for the dead - Lk 9:60 (the unsaved are dead already and the dead cannot hear you nor can they do anything to change their status once they are dead); Lk 12:20.

No human is a child of God unless they become a true follower of Jesus = Jn 3:16-*18-21; *36; 1:12-13 = you must turn to Jesus to become a child of God (see Jn 3:3,5 - Nichodemus was a very religious man yet Jesus told him even he must be born anew or he cannot be a child of God. God's true love to the unsaved is to tell them that they need to be born anew and rightly follow Jesus not joining in in acceptance of them as they are. Find and carefully study my other posts (Hos 4:6). They all go together.

Clayton Gafne Jaymes #fundie patheos.com

Do you really think that your your little kid understands 'honor' and 'obedience' out of love and respect the same way they understand the physical displeasure of discipline for not doing what is told to them?

I'm thinking that it is better to have you child/ren be afraid of you bringing a spanking rather than then not fearing you or respecting/honoring/loving you more than their own will/want and desires for whatever reason/excuse they may have at that time that can get them hurt faaaaaaar worse than a spanking.

Obviously, every child gets to an age where using physical discipline gets to be counterproductive and. Thus using other means to get their attention becomes far more reasonable than any physical correction.

Rudy Schellekens #fundie #homophobia patheos.com

[=Comment on "Would You Rather Have a Gay Child or a Dead Child ?"=]

"...parents asking their kids to change something inherent, something that son or daughter can’t change...." But that is the problematic issue, isn't it? the jury IS still out on whether it is a "born with..." issue. And yes, you can jump all over me, but an objective look at the studies cannot come to any other conclusion.

So, that being out of the way, the really important thing is how a deals with a child that is different. And by different I mean in any possible way. My child will always, no matter what the circumstances, be my child, and therefore loved by me. Even should my child turn out to be a a Bundy or a Dahmer. I will love.
But loving does not mean that I will support ar approve every kind of behavior. And that is where problems arise.

I believe the Bible clearly teaches that homosexual behavior is sin. I do not believe that homosexual behavior is acceptable to God when "two people really love each other..." We do not make that exception in any other relationship (Well, it's okay for a 25 yr old to have a sexual relation with a 13 year old. After all, they love each other). Or polygamous relationships. We do not accept the same excuse!

Unfortunately, homosexual behavior is in the spotlight (currently). The law in the US does not allow polygamous marriages, no matter how much the woman loves her three husbands. Biblically, we have the same condemnation. Whether we like it or not, we cannot invent reasons why God should (and would) allow relationships He has forbidden. Not once, not twice...

From a personal point of view, I do not have the right to change what God has written to fit my desires. And from a personal point of view, I would love my child - but will not accept or condone behavior which is not Biblical, be that sexual or any other kind of behavior. That is part of the price of our convictions. We may not be liked and may even be ridiculed or called names or lambasted on a public forum. But that, too, is part of the price of my convictions.

Rudy Schellekens #fundie patheos.com

[=A comment on both Gay Christians and Unuveralism=]

Carl Longren: Would you be disappointed if you find out in the resurrection that everyone is saved??? There is nothing you or I can do to "earn" our salvation. It is a free gift. You are expecting gays to "earn" their salvation by not being gay. If you believe Hitler was evil, how much more evil do you think a god would be who would burn people for eternity. At least when Hitler killed people it was over and the suffering wasn't forever. Do you believe that the Jews who were killed in the Holocaust will only be resurrected to be sent to hell for all eternity? How horribly cruel. Please use some logic!


Rudy Schellekens: Logic steps above emotionalism. Salvation is a biblical concept. So how about using the Bible as the play book?
Yes. Hitler was evil. To think that he escaped justice on earth bothers me. To know that there will be a judgment that he cannot escape?
And that judgment will be righteous.
The greater monster is a God who WOULD let him escape justice again!

Josh #fundie #wingnut patheos.com

But saying that I made an unsupported claim is like the pot calling the kettle black. Where is the support for your claims? All I see is subjective experience. That's also what I gave you. The difference is that the subjectivity I gave is very obvious in the culture at large. The culture looks down on gluttony/obesity, gossips, and even cheating and divorce, therefore, those sins don't need a "Nashville Statement" to point out the difference between the church and the culture.

It's funny you say we are bleeding believers. The vast majority of churches with declining memberships are the ones that don't preach what the Bible says. Those that affirm homosexuality and the liberal political agenda are losing membership. Those that hold to orthodox teachings and a generally conservative political agenda are growing.

https://goo.gl/jQUzut in reference to this poll: https://goo.gl/hE6X7s
https://goo.gl/1RH7Tr

If you were in a church that affirmed all the sins you say it affirmed or enabled, you were in a bad church. There are plenty of those out there, but the good news is that their memberships are declining. If you aren't currently in a good conservative church, I urge you to find one.

newenglandsun #fundie patheos.com

On June 17, 1689 the Sacred Heart of Jesus manifested to Saint Margaret Mary Alacoque His command to the King of France that the King was to consecrate France to the Sacred Heart. For 100 years to the day the Kings of France delayed, and did not obey.

So on June 17, 1789 the King of France was stripped of his legislative authority by the upstart Third Estate, and four years later the soldiers of the French Revolution executed the King of France as if he were a criminal.

Junkies for Jesus Award

Brandon Barthrop #fundie patheos.com

Brandon Barthrop, who says he’s a former meth addict, started a “Christian Crack House” in Minnesota where his followers “get high on the Lord”— by snorting and huffing essential oils.

He explains all this in a video published by VICE.

image: http://wp.production.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/files/2017/08/TheMostHigh.png
TheMostHigh

Barthrop explains that his place of worship used to be “the main crack house” for a bad area of Minnesota with “36 organized gangs.” But when he was handed the building (someone bought it for a mere $20,000), he turned it into a personal ministry.

“The devil had his crack house. Now I’m gonna have my crack house, and they’re gonna get high on my crack.”

His form of crack, apparently, is burning frankincense and getting “jacked up” on essential oils.

“I do a lot of stuff with essential oils, just for, like, fun. And we snort ‘em and huff ‘em and get all jacked up on ‘em.”

When asked if that makes them high, Barthrop responds, “Yeah, do you wanna try it?”

“This stuff’s so pure that you can orally ingest it and it can be huffed up the nose. You just pour a little on— and just bring it right into your brains and get high on frankincense.”

When asked if the huffing practice was “allowed,” Barthrop specified that it was “completely legal.” He also said Jesus huffed frankincense as a baby — a reference to the magi who brought Baby Jesus gold, frankincense, and myrrh in the story.

“You know Jesus, when he was a baby, started huffing frankincense right in the crib. It’s evidence he was high from birth.”

It’s not just frankincense, though. Barthrop says he also uses “Diamond Oil,” which gives him a “Holy Ghost body high.” He compared it to “like a clean and pure methamphetamine.”

“I’ve got some other stuff that maybe we can get high on later that’s totally like a healthy Holy Ghost body high and it’s called Diamond Oil. And I invented it and own the patents on it.”

Is anyone surprised he has an interest in making money from selling a substance he himself compares to meth?

He says the goal of his group is to “trance out the entire planet” and help people find “the perfect drug.” Being “drunk” or “high,” in their world, is a form of communion with God.

As if that wasn’t enough, Barthrop lashes out against “religion” as “the most evil substance on the face of the earth.” But Christianity, somehow, gets a pass.

“Christianity, in its purest form, is pure pleasure, pure spirituality that benefits everyone around you continuously by positive energy. 2000 years ago they were experiencing ecstasy in the Holy Spirit and it’s been a common occurrence throughout the entire church history and so, the drunkenness is simply ecstasy. It’s pure biblical Christianity.”

Barthrop is right about one thing. Christians have been getting emotional and psychological highs from religious gatherings and rituals for thousands of years. It turns out that, much like the spiritual high felt by someone speaking in tongues, his experiences are caused more by a mindset than by any external force.

I searched online and couldn’t find a reliable source suggesting huffing frankincense actually gets you high, but we all know that real substances aren’t necessary for strong emotional and psychological experiences. All you have to do is believe. Too bad Barthrop is just replacing one addiction with another

Read more at http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2017/08/02/some-believers-are-getting-high-on-the-lord-at-a-christian-crack-house/#fhBHhvORbIkMtO4Y.99

Pat Robertson #fundie patheos.com

On Wednesday’s edition of The 700 Club, Pat Robertson kicked off his Dear Abby-style “Honest Answers” segment with a question from a viewer who was very concerned that her son had married an atheist and wanted to know what she should do about that.

Ethyl wrote:

When my son told me he was going to marry an atheist, it was a tough pill to swallow, but I managed to get through it. I raised my son to believe we, as Christians, should only marry inside the church, but I know he loves her so much that I can’t bring myself to say anything about it. Should I respect his right to make his own choice?

Yes, yes Ethyl, you should absolutely do that. Because it is not your business.

That, of course, is not what Pat Robertson said.

He said that Jesus doesn’t have any fellowship with Belial (the Devil), and that people in the church should not be “unequally yoked” with non-believers, and that Billy Graham said, “You marry an atheist, then you’ve got the devil for your father-in-law.”

This is factually untrue. If you were to marry me, you would have Dante for a father-in-law. Not the Inferno one, of course, just the one who is my dad and has no relation to the fiery pits of hell whatsoever. Robertson explained to Ethyl that although she could give him advice and counsel him, this was all her fault for having been such a terrible parent.

Why? Because the Bible said to “Raise up a child in the way he should go and when he’s old he won’t depart.” And then, just to hammer home the point, Robertson added, “You haven’t raised him very well if he’s going into atheism right now.”

Kwame Lazarus #fundie patheos.com

I lie not about the American flag. It is hardly ever seen waving in front of most Black homes and practically invisible at African American celebrations.

Trust me, I make no distinction between the White American and the White Supremacist.

You can continue to gloat in your delusions but the rise of North Korea and your race's inability to subdue that nation is testament that the days of global and national white rule are numbered.

newenglandsun #fundie patheos.com

Single-payer is a violation of human rights. It means the government can lay claim onto my children or potential children because they pay for that healthcare. It also means that they can lay claim to my own life and create a euthanasia state based on who they think ought to live since it is everyone's tax-payers' money they are using on the situation.
If you think single-payer is "no threat to healthcare", you are a moron.

newenglandsun #fundie patheos.com

(part of a longer arguement about the second amendment)

"Indeed. What good would any of that do against tanks, bombers, and so forth?"

Straw-man. I affirm military privatisation.
In other words, I believe that the people should be allowed to possess the same weapons as the government possesses.

"who do you envision purchasing enough tanks and fighter jets and such to fight the US government on equal terms?"

Do you understand what a free market even is?

"Nukes?"

If the governmental authorities have them, yes.

Archdiocese of Regina #fundie patheos.com

A group of Catholic bishops in Saskatchewan recently sent out a letter to Catholic school boards and parents targeting the Human Papilloma Virus (HPV) vaccine and warning about its “moral implications.”

The Archdiocese of Regina said Monday that schools can’t enforce a “compulsory vaccination program for students” and that parents have “the final say” in the matter. The group encouraged parents to reject the vaccine, which prevents certain types of cancer in boys and girls, for religious reasons.

“First, in accord with the moral teaching of the Church, it is important that young people be encouraged to avoid any kind of promiscuous behavior that, along with other negative effects, also can put them in danger of cervical cancer. Scientific evidence supports the ethical stance that responsible sexual behavior, abstinence until marriage and then a faithful, monogamous union are the surest way to good health.”

How dare they bring science into this discussion. Especially in the same breath as “abstinence until marriage,” considering that scientific studies have shown definitively how teaching abstinence instead of more comprehensive sex education actually hurts kids.

The bishops acknowledged that the vaccine prevents 70% of the HPV that can cause cervical cancer— but argued that that was a bad thing. They warned parents of a “false sense of security” that can contribute to “risky behavior.”

“This is especially important since other viral infections and sexually transmitted diseases are unaffected by the vaccine. When making moral decisions, practical considerations play an important role. In this case, parents need to weigh both the potential benefit that comes from the reduction of one’s chances of contracting an HPV infection that could lead to cervical cancer and the potential harm that could come both from risk compensation and from undermining a healthy sense of sexuality if young people perceive that they are being given ‘mixed messages.’”

In case you weren’t following that, the group is actually saying the HPV vaccine should be avoided because it works too well— which will encourage young children to have more sex. It makes as much sense as saying students shouldn’t be told to wear seat belts because it might encourage them to drive more recklessly.
The bishops went on to contradict that sentiment, though, by undermining the evidence in favor of the vaccine. The group said the scientific support for it “is at an early stage” and the “long term effects are unknown.” (Would they support it if the research was more clear?)

This research has been accepted for years, so why are the bishops lying? It turns out they’ve been sending out this exact same letter during vaccine season every year since at least 2008. The only difference now is that the vaccine is now being offered to girls and boys.

This error was brought to the attention of at least one of the bishops, who admitted that sending it without updates was “a mistake.” Unfortunately, the damage may have already been done, according to Canadian Cancer Society’s Donna Pasiechnik.

“Parents might read this and think ‘Oh my goodness, I don’t want to [do] this’,” Pasiechnik said.

“Statements in the letter were not based on evidence or facts, so we are concerned some parents may just take that at face value and not want to vaccinate.”

John #fundie patheos.com

The mental gymnastics here are truly stunning, particularly when all you have to do is examine the rest of the Bible for confirmation. Exegesis makes it all very clear. And you don't ever have to read a bunch of pagan homosexual heresy along the way. Let me help: "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them" Leviticus 20:13. Seems pretty clear to me. Although I'm sure there's pro homosexual literature out there that attempts to rationalize this away as well with pseudo intellectual pagan historical revisionism...or maybe just arguments about how eating non-kosher foods was also punishable by death so being gay is no worse than that...or that Sodom wasn't destroyed by God for sexual immorality (specifically the gay sexual immorality described in the Biblical account), it was just the result of an unfortunate natural disaster.

Ronald Keith and Rendy Wright #fundie patheos.com

Ronald Keith Wright and Rendy Wright are now out on bond after an August arrest for kicking their child out of the house.

Why on earth would parents kick out a seven-year-old? Because a preacher allegedly told them he was possessed by demons.

"The couple told the child that he was to leave his home and never return, according to the arrest affidavit.

Authorities say the parents then let the child leave with no regard for his safety or whereabouts.

A Bowie County, Texas deputy also said that the couple, in a discussion with a preacher, were told that the boy is possessed by demons."

This all stems from the idea that the boy wouldn’t “do what he was told,” but good luck finding children who listen to everything their parents say. That’s not a sign of Satan. That’s a sign that they’re children.
The parents were also apparently meth users, though plenty of people take the advice of their religious leaders while sober.

The child is currently staying with a relative who hopefully knows better than to listen to a preacher’s advice on the devil.

Topeka Correctional Facility #fundie patheos.com

Shari Webber-Dunn is an inmate at the Topeka Correctional Facility in Kansas, where she’s been serving a 40-year sentence for “helping her boyfriend murder her husband”. She’s also a practicing Thelemite, which makes her part of a century-old theistic religion that stresses individualism. Those details are irrelevant, however, for the problem she witnessed at the prison.

According to a lawsuit filed by the American Humanist Association’s (AHA) Appignani Legal Center, Webber-Dunn has been subject to all kinds of religious proselytizing at the women’s prison:

"— the lawsuit objects to displaying religious messages, images, and symbols on public bulletin boards and elsewhere on prison grounds; encouraging and facilitating prayer requests; displaying a large wooden cross in a multi-purpose room that is used for various purposes; and otherwise imposing strong Christian values on inmates."

Even the movies shown on weekends are Christian propaganda films.
Despite asking politely, and through the proper channels, for the religious items to be removed, she heard nothing from prison officials. That’s why she approached the AHA.

“Prisons are not exempt from the Constitution,” said AHA legal director David Niose,”and prisoners do not lose the shield from state-sponsored religion provided by the Establishment Clause.”

Why she’s in prison has nothing to do with the rights she’s guaranteed while she’s in there. And forcing Christianity upon prisoners is illegal. Prison officials should never have let this happen in the first place. They should’ve stopped it when she asked about it. And now, they’ll have to stop it while paying a hefty penalty for it. Too damn bad. They deserve it.

Dan Fisher #sexist patheos.com

“If elected, I will do everything in my power to bring this evil to an end and take executive action to ensure that all Oklahomans are equally protected, including the preborn,” the former Oklahoma state representative said in a video posted to his campaign’s YouTube page last week. “I will disregard any unjust rulings or perversions of the U.S. Constitution that claim that there is a right to murder preborn human beings in the womb.”

Fisher said in the video that anti-choice laws passed by Republican lawmakers “really only spell out the requirements for killing a preborn baby,” suggesting that they don’t go far enough. “Every one of these pro-life laws affirm abortion as legal, treat it as an acceptable choice, and seek to regulate the practice. If you think about it, these laws are basically pro-choice.”

“I am not running for governor of Oklahoma as a pro-lifer,” he said. “I am not running to regulate abortion. I am running to abolish it.”

Kirk Cameron #fundie patheos.com

One thing we know about hurricanes — and all weather — is that this is not Mother Nature in a bad mood. This is a spectacular display of God’s immense power. And when He puts His power on display, it’s never without reason. There’s a purpose. And we may not always understand what that purpose is, but we know it’s not random. And we know that weather is sent to cause us to respond to God in humility, awe, and repentance—

Bob Shiloh #fundie patheos.com

You cannot see past your bitterness. Remember envy and bitterness rots the bones.
The correct mantra from the Left is that 98% of climatologists agree on Global Warming. This is a fundamentally flawed statement because many are afraid of what the Liberal Media will do to them if they disagree. But don't worry after 8 years of President Trump you won't remember this blip in the road.
Well I guess that's why this site is called Formerly Fundie?

Arkansas #fundie patheos.com

When public schools open up in Arkansas this year, they will all have to display the phrase “In God We Trust” in every library and classroom, provided that the signs are donated or contributions are made specifically for that purpose. The same rule will apply to all buildings funded by taxpayer dollars.

This unnecessary commercial for religion was passed earlier this year with House Bill 1980, which claimed to be about promoting the national motto (Patriotism!) even though this sort of thing is never about patriotism. The kids already say the Pledge of Allegiance. Is that not enough? Staring at a sign doesn’t make you more of an American.

If patriotism was the overriding concern, then schools would have signs saying “e pluribus unum” or something that actually unites us all. Instead, they’re alienating more than a third of young people who don’t belong to any traditional religion.

Just listen to public reaction to this law. It’s easy to tell religion, not America, is what’s on people’s mind.

“It should be there,” said Sharon Sumpter from Mulberry. “We need to turn more back to our religion, our roots and why our country was founded.”

“If you take ‘In God We Trust’ out, I mean that’s basically telling them God’s dead, you know?,” said Doug Wilburn from North Little Rock.

How weak must that guy’s faith be that not seeing an “In God We Trust” sign in a public school means God must be dead?

Unfortunately, this sort of law is difficult to challenge in court precisely because it hides behind the “motto” reasoning, but make no mistake, this is a promotion of God in every public building in the state.

Logan Robertson #fundie patheos.com

Pastor Logan Robertson, an independent Baptist preacher from Auckland, New Zealand, said in a recent sermon that he would be glad to support two gay people getting married— as long as they were shot at the altar.

The short clip of the Westcity Bible Baptist Church sermon was posted online in late July but got more attention after the New Zealand Herald covered it today.

Someone just emailed me the other day about our church. I [believe] he lives in Auckland. He’s like, “What’s your view on homo marriage?”

I was like, “My view on homo marriage is that the Bible never mentions it, so I’m not against them getting married as long as a bullet goes through their head the moment they kiss.”

Because that’s what it talks about. Not homo marriage, but homo death. There’s no such thing as homo marriage—.

That’s what should happen. Now we’ve got Christians that would rather side with them — side with their cute little fag cousin or brother or whoever it is — than with Christians, than actually preach against it.

The love of Christ + a hatred of LGBT people = This sermon.

To be sure, many Christians have already condemned his hateful rhetoric. But make no mistake Robertson feels fully justified in saying this sort of thing because he thinks it’s inspired by the Bible.

When contacted by the Herald tonight, Robertson said he did not deny his words were hate speech.

“Of course it is. Does it sound like hate speech to you?” he said. “If the world thinks that’s hate speech then that’s fine.”
When radical Muslims do it, it’s terrorism. But when he does it, it’s religious freedom—
Just like Pastor Steven Anderson and Theodore Shoebat, Robertson reiterated that he wasn’t calling on anyone to kill gay people — that should be the government’s job in his mind — but he also wasn’t about to take responsibility if anyone acts his message.

“It’s got nothing to do with me — they could read that verse in the Bible.

“I’m not inciting vigilantes — I believe it’s the Government’s job.”

This isn’t Robertson’s first time in the news. In 2014, he told a gay Christian author, “I pray that you will commit suicide.” When a reporter (who also happened to be gay) asked him for clarification, Robertson said once again that the man should kill himself.

It’s not often you see a video when the hateful commenters seem tamer than the person in front of the camera, but leave it to a Baptist pastor to make that happen.

Craig “Sawman” Sawyer #fundie patheos.com

(I wonder if 'Sawman' got his name from the Texas Chainsaw Massacre?)

Americans, Patriots, pray for our nation. Pray for our President.

I’m hearing serious rumblings of a hostile, illegal coup against our democratically elected President by seditious, deep-state subversives funded by Soros & other globalists. Very disturbing.

Patriots, this would be nothing less than an act of war against the American people. It would be the removal of our boldest defender & last possibility of maintaining our protective Constitution. Under the boot of globalists, life as we know it, would immediately decline to the model that suits the globalist interest – Marxist/Socialist/Communist. They get complete control, you get zero. Freedom, Gone! Liberty, Gone! This agenda is evil and simply cannot be allowed, at ANY cost.

Like ALL military, law enforcement and government officials, I took an oath to defend our Constitution against ALL enemies, foreign and domestic. By abandoning the rule of law and conducting a coup against the President & policies WE THE PEOPLE elected, they have made themselves enemies of the United States.

Under threat, ALL patriots, whether civilian, law enforcement, government, or military, have the duty to defend our Constitution against such enemies. Some speculate on “civil war”. I readily recognize a much more sobering reality: Anti-American subversives involved in ANY WAY in an unconstitutional coup against our President will be run down and executed immediately by the world’s most supreme warriors. There will be nowhere to run to, nowhere to hide, no mercy, no sense of humor. Harsh examples will be made. My prediction is it will be a gruesome massacre. Why? Because one side in this conflict has 8 Trillion bullets & the other side doesn’t know which bathroom to use. It will likely only take a few hours. Lessons will be learned. History will take note. Order restored.

Patriots, We The American People stand united as one, against ALL enemies. We are peace-loving people who abide by the rule of law. Prepare yourselves in case this ridiculous insanity actually gets played out and the rule of law goes out the window under their gross miscarriage of our legal process. Shaking my head—

United We Stand! At the ready. USA!

Michelle Meyer and another employee #fundie patheos.com

In a horrible case of real religious persecution, a 7-year-old boy in Indiana was punished and ostracized by his public school teacher after saying he did not believe in God.

Disturbing details are emerging from a lawsuit filed against teacher Michelle Meyer at Forest Park Elementary School who allegedly punished her 7-year-old student with “banishment” for not believing in God.

According to the lawsuit, Meyers forced a second grade boy (identified as A.B. in the lawsuit) to sit by himself at lunch for three days as well as ordering the boy not to talk to any of his classmates after the boy told another student he doesn’t go to church and doesn’t believe in God.

The following is an excerpt from the lawsuit, via the Washington Post:

"9. On or about February 23, 2015, A.B. and his classmates were on the playground during
the school day immediately before lunch when A.B. was asked by one of his classmates if he attended church.

10. A.B. responded by stating that he did not go to church and did not believe in God. He also stated that it was fine with him if his inquiring classmate believed in God.

11. The classmate said that A.B. had hurt her feelings by saying that he did not believe in God and started to cry.

12. A playground supervisor reported to Ms. Meyer what had happened.

13. At that point the students were going to lunch and Ms. Meyer asked A.B. if he had told
the girl that he did not believe in God and A.B. said he had and asked what he had done wrong.

14. Ms. Meyer asked A.B. if he went to church, whether his family went to church, and whether his mother knew how he felt about God.

15. She also asked A.B. if he believed that maybe God exists.

16. [The teacher] told A.B. that she was very concerned about what he had done and that she was going to contact his mother — although she never did.

22. On the day of the incident and for an additional two days thereafter, [the teacher] required that A.B. sit by himself during lunch and told him he should not talk to the other students and stated that this was because he had offended them. This served to reinforce A.B.’s feeling that he had committed some transgression that justified his exclusion."

In addition to Meyer’s punishing her student for saying he did not believe in God, another Forest Park Elementary School employee also harassed the little boy for saying he did not believe in God:

"8. A day or two after the initial incident, A.B. and his fellow-student who had become upset with his comment on the playground were sent to another adult employed at Forest Park Elementary School.

19. This person asked them what the problem was and A.B. indicated that his classmate had become upset when, in response to her question, he had said he did not go to church and did not believe in God.

20. Upon hearing this, the adult employee looked at A.B.’s classmate and stated that she should not be worried and should be happy she has faith and that she should not listen to A.B.’s bad ideas. She then patted the little girl’s hand.

21. This was, again, extremely upsetting to A.B. as it reinforced his feeling that he had done something very wrong."

To sum up, one student told another student he doesn’t go to church and doesn’t believe in God. Apparently that upset the other student, who said the statement hurt her feelings. As a consequence, the student was punished by his teacher and another school employee for simply articulating the fact that he does not believe in God and does not attend church.

The district, who for some reason is not named in the lawsuit, released the following statement about the unfortunate affair:

"It is clear that it is not the province of a public school to advance or inhibit religious beliefs or practices. Under the First and Fourteenth Amendments to the Constitution, this remains the inviolate province of the individual and the church of his/her choice. The rights of any minority, no matter how small, must be protected."

The most tragic part of the story:

"31. A.B. came home from school on multiple occasions crying saying that he knows that everyone at school — teachers and students — hate him.

32. Even now there are some classmates who will not talk to A.B.

33. Even now A.B. remains anxious and fearful about school, which is completely contrary to how he felt before this incident."

“He was publicly shamed and made to feel that his personal beliefs were terribly wrong.”

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