carolus magnus #fundie

carolus magnus #fundie theologyonline.com

Athiests, evolutionists, and the like delight in mocking God as a bad designer because mankind sins. If he had made us perfect, then we couldn't sin.

This argument crumbles when applied to anything else. Which reveals what a fallacy it is.

For example, a knife could be a perfectly designed instrument for chopping vegetables, but also capable of killing someone. Does this mean there is a flaw in the design of the knife? Was the designer of the knife an idiot for having made this tool with the side effect of being a weapon?

In much the same way, by making humans a perfectly designed instrument for having a relationship with (freewill), they are also capable of sin.

Of course you atheists cannot believe freewill exists. It is not possible for you to believe in freewill and have any sort of consistency in your philosophy. Freewill requires a force outside of the laws of this universe in order to be enacted.

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old comment by

Are you seriously comparing your god to primitive Humans? Given enough time Humans could advance to the point where they'd be able to build a technologically advanced knife that will detect the blade about to go through living flesh and do something to stop it. Like those table saws which shut down and retracts the blade the second it touches Human flesh. Of course it would be pretty pointless since making a blade isn't all that difficult and if someone really wants to use one against a living being they can produce a non-technologically advanced one to get the job done. However, last I checked your god doesn't have any competion in the life creating business so what's his excuse for being so damn stupid? Humans have a valid excuse (besides the fact that they needed knives to as a hunting tool and so they served the purpose they were made for) - They were and continue to be too primitive to create a knife that serves non-leathal purposes only. The same does not apply to an all powerful being.

old comment by Captain Common Sense

First of all, when knives were first employed by stone age man as a primitive tool, the instrument was designed for hunting; it's SUPPOSED to kill things. The more modern use of chopping your salad is a bonus.

Second, Athiests whole philosophy is based on free will, that we choose our own direction in lives, and are not doomed to worship some non existent patriarchal figure thought up by nomads in tents thousands of yeas ago to cope with what science has been able to explain for centuries, and apply laws when there was no state to enforce them.

And your entire argument crumbles because it's based on one book written by men. Even if you theorised that your religious text was written by your diety himself, it might be understandable. But you're relying on the humans who wrote it, and later translated it, to be completely unbiased. You're living your lives according to a book written by men, not by your own spiritual discovery.

Is independent thought, and objective morality so terrible to consider?

old comment by Swede

Sinning has nothing to do with it, as sin is a Christian concept.
Secular people talk about crimes, misdemeanor and bad behavior. Actions that might harm other people in some way.

It's not the sinning that makes us imperfect, but the design flaws; like the c-vitamin-producing gene that it shut off, the apendix that can easily be inflamed, the asophagus and the windpipe too close to each other, the fact that we walk on two legs with spinal columns and hips that are built for walking on four legs, etc.

A knife with teeth all around would be a design flaw. What you can erroneously do with the knife has very little to do with the design, really.

Free will is the basis of humanism and atheism. Free will is the very lack of a "force outside the laws of this universe in order to be enacted".

old comment by Anon-e-moose

"Athiests, evolutionists, and the like delight in mocking God as a bad designer because mankind sins. If he had made us perfect, then we couldn't sin.

This argument crumbles when applied to anything else. Which reveals what a fallacy it is."

'Sin' is a man-made concept. Nothing more. Besides:

image

And as 'sin' is just man-made, then the concept of such - certainly in the context of a debate or argument - makes it a fallacy.

But then, you fundies talk a load of cock, so you should be familiar with phalluses. So, unlike we Atheists, the 'saved' can never sin, eh? Just ask Ted Faggard:

image

He certainly knows about phalluses.

And anyway, there's just one thing that destroys the whole concept of your 'God' being an 'Intelligent Designer' (not taking into account how Kitzmiller vs. Dover proves that Evolution is fact, and 'Creationism'/'I.D' is lies, because now the law says so). That one concept-annihilating thing? The Duck-billed Platypus. The only possible conclusion you can come to is this (check one):

[ ] God was off his tits on industrial-strength hallucinogens, when he 'created' that creature.

[ ] The Platypus evolved in a unique way, to adapt to specific environmental conditions & habitat. No 'God' required. (Biological) Shit happens.

Choose wisely, carolus.

old comment by SeekerLancer

If he didn't make us perfect and he actually intended this little game of good versus evil then he's got the intellect of a child and not really deserving of any worship.

The bastard is supposed to be omnipotent but you're arguing he didn't see the unintended uses for his creation and shouldn't be held responsible for their design? If a child chokes on a small part from a toy doesn't that toy-maker take responsibility and recall the product? So god just looked at evil and said, "Meh, I'll just let it go and see what happens." What's his excuse for letting Satan run free?

Christians constantly contradict each other on the topic of free-will. If we do everything according to god's will then I'm supposed to be an atheist and you should stop worrying about it. If we have free will and we're supposed to be dedicating our lives to god with it then what's the point of having it in the first place?

You can explain evil as both part of god's plan or because of human free will but not both. Pick one and stick with it. Neither of these explanations are particularly good ones though.

“For example, a knife could be a perfectly designed instrument for chopping vegetables, but also capable of killing someone. Does this mean there is a flaw in the design of the knife?”
Since the designer could have made aqll vegetables bite-sized with no need of a knife, then yes.
He could have made veggies fall apart with a splash of boiling water, adjust the size of the pieces by the amount of water. But NO, we’re down here with claymores, making chili while someone’s practicing their bagpipes.

"Was the designer of the knife an idiot for having made this tool with the side effect of being a weapon?”
If you’re trying to compare this to the OMNIPOTENT BEING who made everything, then yes.

“In much the same way, by making humans a perfectly designed instrument for having a relationship with (freewill), they are also capable of sin.”
So he did design us with a minimum amount of damned.

“Of course you atheists cannot believe freewill exists.”
Don’t lump us all together on this point.

“It is not possible for you to believe in freewill and have any sort of consistency in your philosophy.”
Show how you reached this conclusion?

“Freewill requires a force outside of the laws of this universe in order to be enacted.”
You’re just making shit up.

carolus magnus #fundie theologyonline.com

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