What if I told you I tore the wings off of a fly. It probably wouldn't take a load off your conscience. However, according to Darwinian evolution man is no morally different than animals, such as flies. Would it really matter then if a man had his testicles torn up? Apparently not.
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Well, no, it wouldn't "take a load off my conscience" (huh?) because I didn't do it, did I?
If I didn't think killing other animals for food was immoral in the same way cannibalism would be, I wouldn't be vegetarian now would I?
Well, I'd go the other way. Since humans and animals are equal, and hurting a human is a bad thing, then hurting an animal is a bad thing too.
I'd say that's WAY more pacifistic than your holy book.
Let's go over this slowly, in simple words, so your head doesn't asplode.
1. Not everyone is bloodthirsty or brutal. Most of us wouldn't rip a fly's wings off for fun.
2. The Theory of Evolution is not a guide for morality. The ToE is about as relevant to morality as a tablecloth.
3. Evolution doesn't say that humans are animals. Basic biology says that. Even if evolution were found to be completely wrong, humans would still be animals.
4. Evolution doesn't say that human and nonhuman animals are morally equal; morality says that. Morality is different from evolution. (Of course, this assumes that "morally equal" means "entitled to equal consideration; none are deprived of whichever rights they need.) Nonhuman animals are like children, in a sense. (Although I'd propose making lions superior to humans instead of merely equal.)
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Maronan
Evolution is NOT a religion. It's just a science that is based off an idea that inadvertantly points out that the Bible is full of shit that isn't very freakin' likely.
Religions guide moral behavior, thus why they're dangerous if abused and taken advantage of as heavily as the Christian faith.
There's nothing wrong with having a religion, or even believing heavily in a religion. It's just when you forget how to think for yourself that idiots like you start spouting out crap like this!
We keep running up against this type of thinking time and time again. I feel it is because most fundamentalists analyze everything about their lives in terms of their faith, so they can't see how anyone can live their lives without some kind of religion.
This is probably why they relate to evolution as a religion, and keep calling it Darwinism (think Calvinism).
They fail to realize evolution isn't religion because it doesn't rely on faith but on evidence. Something virtually all religions sadly lack.
<<< However, according to Darwinian evolution man is no morally different than animals, such as flies. >>>
Evolution is not a philosophy of morality. Science deals with "is", not "ought".
And there are reasons for an "evolutionist" to consider humans different, morally, than animals. Evolution isn't one of them, but there are plenty of reasons.
<< However, according to Darwinian evolution man is no morally different than animals, such as flies. >>
As stated previously by others, evolution does not involve a religious or theological bearing on morality. What it DID do was present Humans with the vehicle with which to move beyond the other animals in intelligence and reasoning. Out of that came a sense of morality due to our ancestors ability to think and become aware of themselves, and as an extension, to others. They did not want to be killed, so therefore thought it wrong to kill others except in a case of self-preservation. This did not happen suddenly, but over the course of millenia. While the rest of the animal kingdom is not as highly evolved as us, there are species that demonstrate a similarity in the way they interact with other animals, particularly among their own species (the great apes and porpoises just to name a couple.)
So, Frank, crawl out from under that blanket of ByBullshit, open your eyes (and your mind) and learn and thing or two.
If you don't know what you're talkin' 'bout, shut up.
If you don't know what you're talkin' 'bout, shut up.
C'mon, everybody sing along.
Would it really matter if the entire solar system blew up? In the grand scheme, no. But this is not what we mean we say something matters. We mean that it matters to us. And yes, it does matter to me if you heartlessly disfigure any animals (which of course includes humans).
Maronan, excellent post. That's pretty much what I would have said.
A. Nony Mouse, that comparison comes from an angle I would not have thought to use, and it's brilliant!
~David D.G.
What if I told you I tore the wings off of a fly[?] I'd consider you a mean bastard.
The thing that gets to me is that Fundies insist that human beings do not have the capacity to be intrinsically noble. That they cannot find morality within themselves, simply because they have the capacity to make choices.
There is also the assumption that animals have no behavioural moderation. Certainly, animals do not have the same kind of morals humans do - but they do have (often complex) codes of social conduct, including the ability to make choices, weigh their options, and break rules.
Actually, it bothers me when people torture any kind of creature, even bugs. When I hear about kids burning ants with a magnifying glass, it makes me think that they're really fucked up, even though I'm told it's "normal."
I may kill bugs, but that's mostly because they invade my home and it's my right to evict unwanted intruders as I see fit. I do it quickly, too. No ripping off the appendages of bugs in my house.
"Would it really matter then if a man had his testicles torn up?"
If that man was you, Frank, then no.
“What if I told you I tore the wings off of a fly.”
I think that’s called a symptom?
“It probably wouldn't take a load off your conscience.”
Why would my conscience be affected by your actions?
“ However, according to Darwinian evolution man is no morally different than animals, such as flies.”
That’s not true. We evolved as social animals. We developed morals because the community that protects each other does better than the community that preys on each other.
So, ripping the wings off a member of our gene pool is a lot different, morally, from ripping the wings off of a fly.
“Would it really matter then if a man had his testicles torn up? Apparently not.”
It’s one thing if they were torn up when his bike went over a cliff, another if they were torn off because he pissed off the King. People inflicting unnecessary harm are immoral.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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