It would be naive to suggest what appears on the surface as textual contradictions and historical errors, as well as suspected moral dilemmas, do not exist in the Bible. But, it is as intellectually dishonest to conclude that the Bible is not the word of God as it would be to suggest electricity does not exist because we cannot explain it.
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Except, of course, for the troublesome fact that we can explain electricity. Don't you just hate it when truth, knowledge, and facts get in the way?
The problem is, we can explain electricity. Moreover, since it's a human discovery and its management a human creation, if we didn't understand, we wouldn't be able to. And comparing the Bible with that is apples and pears. The Bible is a very simple book in its message and, if its message is to be followed, there can't be a dilemma, otherwise, which model are you supposed to follow?
Electricity is a natural phenomenon. We can measure it, we have strong theoretical models for it. We can explain it.
"God" is a cultural phenomenon. Similiar to:
Harry Potter (which does *not* prove the existence of real wizards)
'A midsummer night's dream' (which does *not* prove the existence of real fairies)
'The Muppet Show' (which does *not* prove the existence of talking frogs and pigs)
The Bible (which does *not* prove the existence of 'God')
They are all *stories*! Or, regarding the Bible: "It's just a book, dude."
To put *natural* phenomena on the same level as *cultural* phenomena is serious intellectual dishonesty, my dear fundie.
I require all comments of this nature to be able to pass the Doctor Who Rule. Namely: if an argument for any religious text can be applied equally well to Doctor Who, it's not a good argument.
(The fictional TV show/book/film/etc of your choice can of course be substituted.)
Those textual contradictions and historical errors aren't the only errors. The Gospel of John, for instance, get the entire geography of the "holy land" wrong.
Leviticus suggests that painting spots on a stick and waving them in front of pregnant livestock will affect the genetics of the offspring.
These don't "appear on the surface" to be errors, they are just plain stupid, goat-fucker errors.
By making these the "word of God", you really paint God to be a real numbnuts when it comes to knowledge of how the world he supposedly created works.
But, what's the point, really. You're too indoctrinated to see the obvious.
We can't explain electricity (except that we can); therefore, the Bible is the Word of God (except that that doesn't follow).
Strawberries are blue; therefore, the capital of Lithuania is Los Angeles.
Electrical charge is the property of certain kinds of subatomic particles, and affects their electromagnetic interactions. These particles create and affect electromagnetic fields.
And the bible is the word of man, not God.
WORDS CANNOT FUCKING COME CLOSE!!!!
FUCK FUCK FUCK. ITS NOT FUCKING MAGIC.
Sorry, but I have an honours degree in Electrical Engineering and I take this very personally.
But, it is as intellectually dishonest to conclude that the Bible is not the word of God as it would be to suggest electricity does not exist because we cannot explain it.
World's worst analogy. Not only can we explain electricity, we also have proof that it exists. If you need more, stick a fork in an electric socket. All we have with the Bible is the Bible's own claim that it's the word of God. Should we believe Gulliver's Travels is the word of Lemuel Gulliver because it says so?
Funny. The president of the National Electrical Contractors Association also lives in Youngstown (and he's a Christian, too!) , but he can sure explain electricity, inside and out.
But . . . we . . . CAN explain electricity!!!
And magnets are NOT fucking miracles either.
For Cthulhu's sake people, pick up a book!!!
At least he's actually admitting that apparent errors and contradictions exist in the bible, even if he's trying to sugarcoat it with "appears on the surface." Which means he's got some ad hoc hypotheses to explain them away.
And yes, we can explain electricity. Or did you mean that you fundies can't explain it?
Really, that's as lame as the "well you can't see the wind, but we know it's there; you can't see God, but he must be there too" argument.
@Cy
I require all comments of this nature to be able to pass the Doctor Who Rule. Namely: if an argument for any religious text can be applied equally well to Doctor Who, it's not a good argument.
THE DOCTOR
DIED
FOR YOU!!!
(like, 10 times so far)
We can demonstrate the generation and application of electricity for you. You cannot demonstrate the generation or application of your god. Oh, you can pray and attribute a positive result to god. However, if electricity does not get a positive result we can explain why. If your god does not produce a positive result, all you can do is shrug your shoulders and say that "god works in mysterious ways."
Except...we CAN explain electricity.
We've been able to accurately mathematically describe it since sometime in the early 19th century. We understand how it couples to other fundamental forces, such as electromagnetism. We understand the exact particles involved, and how their mass, charge and spin allows them to carry energy from one point to another. We understand its role in nature, its role in physics and biology. Most importantly, because many generations of really, really clever people spent their entire lives puzzling it out over several centuries, we understand exactly how to harness it and put it to work doing really useful things for us.
So, yeah. Bad example. In fact, they don't get much worse.
So you seem to admit to errors in the bible (at least the possibility of them), but your last sentence changes your position to saying that these are not errors, rather we just can't understand the bible or the errors fully. And since we don't understand them completely, we can't disqualify the bible as the word of god.
That's a nifty hurdle you setup for your opponents. How can they understand the bible completely since it's basically impossible to have complete understanding of anything? Woo hoo, your argument is ironclad and your faith unbreakable!
Actually the term for your argument is, "moving the goal posts." It a logical fallacy which means the argument requires the impossible in order to refute it. Did you intentionally set this up or stumble across it thinking you struck gold?
It doesn't really matter. I don't fully understand astrology or the bible. But based on what I do know, I'm confident that they are both bullshit.
"But, it is as intellectually dishonest to conclude that the Bible is not the word of God as it would be to suggest electricity does not exist because we cannot explain it."
Electricity is the movement of electrons along a conductor. Next question.
"It would be naive to suggest what appears on the surface as textual contradictions and historical errors, as well as suspected moral dilemmas, do not exist in the Bible."
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html
Consider your religion destroyed, pal. Now who's the naive one?
I can't explain electricity that precisely, but that doesn't make me think it's unexplainable.
What appears to be contradictions? They ARE contradictions, or the goat hearders didn't remember every word precisely for hundreds of years, before it was actually written down. But then, wouldn't God have appeared to the one writing it down and correct the errors? If he cares at all about the exact wording, that is.
When I become dictator my first decree will be the immediate sterilization of idiots like the "Rev." Guy. People this stupid should not be allowed to reproduce. Period.
I will, however, be a benevolent ruler. They will be relocated to the promised land -- Texas -- with a large and heavily guarded fence surrounding the entirity of its territory. They can praise Jebus and play with rattlesnakes or whatever twisted, retarded shit they want to do to their hearts' content.
Then, when they all die out the area will be a quarantined wasteland for the necessary time it will take for the elimination of teh stoopid from the area. Unfortunately, the sun likely will have gone supernova before that occurs.
Why is it intellectually dishonest to conclude something when there is no evidence to the contrary? I mean, you still might not be right but to say that it is intellectually dishonest to conclude that the bible is not the word of god is a preposterous statement.
Oh wait this guy is a Reverend and therefore a douchebag.
"But, it is as intellectually dishonest to conclude that the Bible is not the word of God as it would be to suggest electricity does not exist because we cannot explain it."
Fucking magnets, how do they work?!
[/Insane Clown Posse]
http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/fcking-magnets-how-do-they-work
The comment by shotinthehead is relevant to you, Guy.
(as for the theme of "Miracles" by Insane Clown Posse, what exactly is wrong with over-analysing everything? What's wrong with having explanations for everything , pray tell? )
We... can ... explain... electricity! Have you been living under a rock for the past century and a half? Oh wait, you're a creationist; never mind.
I'm curious though. You acknowledge contradictions in the Bible, meaning that you cannot be a literalist, but in that case, what are your grounds for dogmatism? Please tell me.
Electricity can be explained. Many of the issues in the Bible have as well and it generally would disprove it being the word of god. Why? Once explained, science, geography, history, etc tend to disprove much of what is in the Bible
@Brendan Rizzo
"I'm curious though. You acknowledge contradictions in the Bible, meaning that you cannot be a literalist, but in that case, what are your grounds for dogmatism? Please tell me."
Even the Catholic Church, and the Church of England willingly admit that much of the Bible is merely fable and metaphor. Don't the likes of Rev. BonGiovanni realise the implications, nay, the dangers for their dogma - and their beliefs as a whole - if they continue their rigid, unbending, Literalist thinking?
We can explain electricity but let's assume we can't. Even then, we can create it, measure it, clearly see its effects, and independently verify that it exists.
The bible doesn't only appear on the surface to contain contradictions, scientific and historical errors, and moral dilemmas, but it also appears far above the surface, far down below, and anywhere in between.
When it says there's a "firmament" in the heavens, which we've conclusively proved is not the case, as well as claiming that "stars will fall to earth" when they're millions of light years away and much, much bigger than the earth, then yes, you have factual errors in the bible. Not to mention moral dilemmas like committing genocide in the name of an all-good, all-loving god.
And electricity is simply electron flow through atoms. There, I explained it. Guess that makes the bible not the word of God.
And I hate to overuse this, but:
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=electricity+explained
I recommend the second link entitled "Electricity explained so clearly, even your dog could understand it." Probably because your dog is not a Christian fundie.
WE CAN EXPLAIN ELECTRICITY.
FUCKING HELL.
THIS REALLY IS A CASE OF "THERE MUST BE A GOD BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW HOW THINGS WORK", ISN'T IT?
You typed this on a COMPUTER!! Powered by ELECTRICITY!!!
Now SHUT THE FUCK UP!!! The bible can do no such thing, otherwise computers would have been invented in the 15th century.
“The words of a perfect, all knowing god would also be perfect and all knowing.”
I dunno. Is a perfect, all knowing god necessarily truthful?
Yeah, it's just that electricity does exist, and we can explain it with demonstrable and repeatable evidence, whereas no such evidence exists for your or any other god. I hope this doesn't ruin the party atmosphere.
It doesn't 'appear on the surface'.. they are blatant errors, both historical and factual.
News flash, Einstein, we can explain electricity.
Newsflash Reverend, we can explain electricity. You may be too stupid to understand the explanation (most people using that analogy usually are) but that doesn't invalidate the explanation.
The Bible is bullshit because it is full of contradictions, outright falsehoods, and historical errors. It is the work of superstitious men and only the most delusional and gullible could possibly see it as divine.
Elec-fucking-tricity??
Head, desk, headache.
Let me get this straight.
1. It is intellectually dishonest to suggest electricity doesn't exist because we can't explain it.
2. It is intellectually dishonest to conclude that the Bible isn't the word of God, presumably because we can't explain the errors, etc.
So, are you suggesting that just because we cannot explain the Bible, it would be intellectually dishonest to conclude that it isn't the word of God? Who says we can't explain the Bible?
Odd that no contradictions or "errors" occur in mainstream interpretations of the bible, which don't hold it as simultaneously inerrant, literal and divinely inspired.
In the mainstream, "The Word of God" much like "The Good Book" is another praise to explain the same volume of works, rather than a description of that volumes context.
We can explain the bible's apparent contradictions, much like we can explain electricity. If you don't like the answers, that's another matter entirely.
@Berny
"Newsflash Reverend, we can explain electricity. You may be too stupid to understand the explanation (most people using that analogy usually are) but that doesn't invalidate the explanation."
Guy here would probably use the following analogy: 'Just because you can't see air, doesn't mean that God can't exist, neither! Least of all electricity. ' I'd equally reply: We have apparatus that can measure the speed, temperature, density and composition of such, to prove the existence of Air. Also, we can see electricity at work, powering things. Oh, and One Word: Lightning.
Now Rev, care to prove that your 'God' exists, similarly? And to the satisfaction of we Atheists? Empirically. Scientifically.
PROTIP: We can see rainbows, but they don't actually physically exist.
Your call, Guy.
...'He said, writing from the 19th century.' Sweetheart, we can explain electricity now, try to keep up.
Thank you Table Rock for explaining this quote. We need to understand how fundies can read something and then conclude exactly the opposite.
Is there any evidence that this guy is actually this ignorant, or is he pretending to be ignorant in order to fleece his flock ?
@Some guy
"As Dara O'Briain would say: Get in the fucking sack"
And certainly in Rev. Guy's case, he'd be more than qualified to do so. Dara O'Briain has a degree in theoretical physics.
(He's always great when he appears in "QI". And of course, the natural choice as host of "Mock the Week" too)
Guy, just because you apparently flunked your high school science classes doesn't mean everybody else did too..
That the bible is full of contradictions and errors does mean that it is in fact bullshit though.
I feel so sorry for this guy, that i'll explain electricity to him, in a way he can understand.
Electricity = grey-bluish smoke. If that escapes, your electrical appliance stops working.
(sorry, had to do a second post since my cookies seem to have went bye-bye and can't edit my previous)
Scientists can explain electricity perfectly well. Just because you are too dumb to understand the explanation doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Also, electricity manifestly exists, we can see its effects and if you stick your finger in a socket you can feel it, nobody has yet demonstrated that god exists in a way that couldn't be better explained by natural means.
ahh yes , tides, rainbows and electricity , all the great mysteries of the universe.
what must it be like to live in such a world ?
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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