If the value of Liberty is based on the existence of God, what happens when society loses it’s belief in God? What then sustains this value? If He doesn’t exist, why does freedom matter? We might argue that freedom is good, but why? I’ve discussed this matter with Bay Area Guy and while both of us are non religious, we both nevertheless believe that the idea of God is a force for good in society. If we remove God, morality dies along with Him. As Dostoyevsky said: “If God is dead, then everything is permitted.” Atheism leads to one dead end: Social Darwinism.
If God is dead, why bother being moral? Why not let nature take its course and let the big fish dominate all the smaller fish? Furthermore, if liberty is based on the existence of God, and as God is gradually killed off by post-modern society, could this then explain the disturbing erosion of our freedoms? Is this why NSA surveillance is on the rise? Is the State destined to replace God as the omnipresent apparition of observation and judgement?
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If the value of Liberty is based on the existence of God
If God is dead, why bother being moral?
"Is this why NSA surveillance is on the rise?"
No, it's rising because the God believers were in a hysterical panic about enemy God believers and were stampeded into giving up their freedom for the illusion of security.
"If God is dead, why bother being moral? Why not let nature take its course and let the big fish dominate all the smaller fish?"
Because our survival as a species, and thus your survival as an individual, is based on co-operation. Being a massive social-darwinist prick gets you killed, it is literally the opposite of survival of the fittest.
What religion do you speak of that offers this freedom?
"while both of us are non religious, we both nevertheless believe that the idea of God is a force for good in society."
Lie or too many Christians around that have driven this into your skull, it is one of their echo points, nothing to actually back the claim up as usual which to them means they should claim it even more as the claim is all they have.
If God is dead, why bother being moral? Why not let nature take its course and let the big fish dominate all the smaller fish?
Just try it and see how fast the rest of society comes down on you like a ton of rectangular building things.
Furthermore, if liberty is based on the existence of God,
That’s a mighty big “if”
Where in the bible is Liberty brought up? The God of the Bible is all about control, all about divine rule. He is a very strict ruler who order's complete obedience. He offers no Liberties, no freedoms. The biblical God is the antithesis of Liberty.
"If God is dead, why bother being moral?"
Are you seriously so dense that you have to ask why you would want others to treat you and those you care about in a moral manner? Seriously?
Perhaps because it would benefit those around you who would rather you be moral than not? Perhaps because you might not wish to be treated in an immoral manner yourself? Perhaps because society's laws will lock you up if you aren't?
The value of Liberty is not based on the existence of some god or other.
Most Social Darwinists are Christians, and Social Darwinism is usual in laissez-faire capitalism, fascism and Nazism.
If gods don't exist, they are neither dead nor alive. You don't sound non-religions, as you only refer to one particular god.
If God is dead, why bother being moral? Why not let nature take its course and let the big fish dominate all the smaller fish?
And if God is alive but never actually treats anyone differently regardless of what they do, think or say and there are 40,000 different opinions about what He wants and what is "moral", then what?
"If God is dead, why bother being moral" - People like you are what we should be afraid of. I you admit you wouldn't be moral if you didn't believe you would be punished for it, it says a lot more about you than about us.
And if you simply cannot grasp why any person would choose to be moral without any selfish gain, then there is something seriously wrong with you.
"If the value of Liberty is based on the existence of God" - I'm pretty sure you people have made it clear god is the antithesis of freedom.
For being a "Champion of Liberty", you seem awfully bent on taking away liberties from everyone but those who fit your narrow definition of Christianity.
If there are people in your society without liberty, then there is no liberty in your society.
If the value of Liberty is based on the existence of God
That's a pretty big if there. And considering that A) God's "freedom" consists of "do as I say or I burn you" B) that God installed kings in the Bible and C) that most of the freedoms we associate with modern democracies are secular that's a pretty tough "if" to sell.
As Dostoyevsky said: “If God is dead, then everything is permitted.”
I don't care who said it, try stripping naked in front of a police station and see if everything is permitted.
Atheism leads to one dead end: Social Darwinism.
Then what's with all the conservative Christians who want to emulate Ayn Rand, cut welfare, and leave the poor to fend for themselves?
If God is dead, why bother being moral? Why not let nature take its course and let the big fish dominate all the smaller fish?
You're supposed to do the right thing because it's the right thing to do, not because you get an reward for it after you die. What kind of morality is it if it has to be bought? What if God told you to kill your neighbors? Would you do it? If so then you are nothing more than a mercenary doing the jobs of the highest bidder. If you wouldn't then God isn't the basis of your morality. If duty and conscience don't motivate you, then be aware that the small fish can form a school and gang up on the big bully fish.
@Mister Spak
"Is this why NSA surveillance is on the rise?"
No, it's rising because the God believers were in a hysterical panic about enemy God believers and were stampeded into giving up their freedom for the illusion of security.
To be fair, they thought they were giving up OTHER people's rights. How were they supposed to know the programs meant for spying on Muslims would be turned against good American Christians?
It seems to me there's a gross misunderstanding of what freedom actually is. Absolute freedom is impossible. Even in an anarchy, you lack freedom from other people imposing their will on you. It doesn't matter much if your religious beliefs aren't illegal if the local lynch mob isn't restrained. But God falls on the complete opposite side of the spectrum into a dictator who wants to control your very thoughts. Sure, you get a lot of freedom from other people committing crimes (although most of the things God considers "crimes" are beyond stupid) but you have very little freedom to do anything. You can't even THINK a bad thought. For practical freedom to exist you need a freedom to do anything that doesn't violate anyone's freedom from your will. If God really supported freedom, he'd only punish those that harm others and wouldn't punish those who simply disagree with him, choose to worship another god, or don't believe in his at all. Imagine you were thrown in jail just because you don't believe Obama is the legitimate president. That's the "freedom" your God supports.
++"If the value of Liberty is based on the existence of God"
I believe I've found the flaw in the "logic" of all this that confounds you so.
++"If God is dead, why bother being moral? Why not let nature take its course and let the big fish dominate all the smaller fish?"
You mean like the Bible commands? That's all the Bible boils down to if you cut away the exceedingly and demonstrably false creation myth -- one ridiculously big fish dominating all the little ones and abusing them when and how it takes his fancy.
"If the value of Liberty is based on the existence of God"
It doesn't. In fact, from what I understand of god, he seems to be against liberty what with all the 'do exactly as I say or suffer' stuff.
A lot of "ifs" in that screed.
Morality does not come from religion. Morality pre-dates by christianity by several MILLION years. Like everything else, it evolved. All animals have "morals" to one extent or another.
I'm more worried about the last sentence: "Is the State destined to replace God as the omnipresent apparition of observation and judgement?" Apparently, Dota thinks society can't work without ordinary people being in fear of negative judgement all the time, and not merely from their fellows. Compounding matters is what he said about not being religious. In effect, he's championing that commoners be kept under the illusion of religion, because anything else threatens his alleged nobility (the State has much greater proximity to him than God, for starters. Keep in mind that this is motive guesswork on my part.). He doesn't seem to think that people "lesser" than him deserve to know direct truth.
Oh, for the love of...
Don't you people ever get tired of pushing the 'no god=Social Darwinism' bullshit?
Your god and religion are an amalgam. Basically much of what was already part of Judaism (with some nice bits you assimilated from European Pagans), repackaged and resold to anyone who was/is willing to accept it. It makes money for churches and turns people into supercilious fuckwits, while giving them a sense of superiority over others who are 'doing religion wrong ' or not doing religion at all.
We already know the difference between right and wrong. Those who don't either had a shitty upbringing (and being raised christian is no more likely to result in a good person, btw), or a mental illness that prevents them from acting on it. Humanity doesn't need or want you (or your religion) coming in to babysit us.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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