A short list of things that consistent egalitarians believe:
For the first 1970 years of Christianity, every Christian everywhere got the issue of women's ordination wrong.
Since the husband/wife relationship parallels God and His people, God submits to us.
Somewhere around 1970, we finally figured out what Paul and Peter really meant about gender roles.
Logistics dictate that the buck must stop and someone must submit. Egalitarians exclude male headship, making them closet Matriarchs.
If you read Greek, you'd know that the Bible really means the opposite of what it says. Except Galatians 3:28.
20th Century scholars know how to translate Koine Greek better than 1st Century Christians.
Paul is a hypocrite who forbids Timothy/Titus to have female elders but tells the Romans that Junia is an elder.
One heavily disputed verse in Romans 16 repealed all of the Old Testament precedent of male leadership.
Sarah called Abraham "Lord" (I Peter 3) to signify the mutual submission in their relationship.
Paul forbids a woman even to pray in church unless her head is covered. He really wants women to be in charge.
Jesus picked 12 people to lead His Church, and Zero of them were women. We should not be like Jesus.
If it sounds like heresy, that's because it is.
31 comments
Which is why I believe that Abrahamic religions and secular democracy are incompatible - without one of them being an empty shell. Back in the 19th and 18th century, democracy was an empty shell used by the religious majority to oppress those who believed or behaved differently. Today religion, and especially Christianity, are ampty shells with some making empty excuses for why they believe their religion justifies freedom so they can be nice people on earth and still feel like some sky daddy is loving them.
So, if freedom and equality are heresy, but you know freedom and equality are good, what does that make your religion?
The office of deaconess exists in the New Testament: try 1 Timothy 3:8-13, for example. As a result, the rest of this argument fails, and fails badly.
Nobody believes that. We know what the Bible says, we merely aknowledge that it's wrong.
And every Christian everywhere? Although my grandfather died an atheist, my grandmother swears he once was a believer. And as a young man, he sure was happy to have a wife capable of leading the household, given how his ADHD made him struggle with money. (He was diagnosed in his 60s, but he was aware of the problem long before they put a name on it!)
But he was a Catholic, maybe it doesn't count.
1) It seems that most Christians were wrong for the vast majority of their history on slavery, so why not?
2) Isn't that what you expect when you pray to your god to grant your wishes?
3) See my first comment
4) Why shouldn't leadership fall on the most qualified person, regardless of gender? It was a good enough arrangement for Deborah in the Book of Judges
5) The bible does contradict itself quite a bit, and no translation yet has been able to cover up that fact
6), Naw, most scholars agree that Timothy/Titus were forged in Paul's name after he died. Paul wasn't so much a hypocrite as an opportunist
7) Why not? Christians generally ignore the Old Testament anyway (except the creation stories and/or the parts that can be used to condemn gay people)
8) When did Peter meet Abraham or Sarah?
9) See what I said about Timothy/Titus. As for the similar passage from I Corinthians, note how the verse has nothing to do with the preceding or following verses. Most scholars agree it was a margin note that some fool included in a transcription
10) Ignoring the fact that modern Christian fundamentalists actively work to be as unlike Jesus as possible, note that the first witnesses and reporters of Jesus' resurrection were women. Therefore, the first true Christians were women
Now, given the fact that you clearly know nothing about what you are talking about, why should anyone listen when you talk about "heresy?"
Well, it also had lots of rules that had not been observed since the Middle Ages, AT LEAST(For example, not eating meat on Friday on a regular basis), and you don´t seem to care St Paul or Timothy opinion on that.
If you're going to rely on ancient texts that reflect the mad tent-commanderish nonsense of dessert beardies, you're not necessarily going to maintain a valid grasp of contemporary affairs. Rather, you're going to yearn for days long passed when some men were staring-eyed loonies guided by their bollocks that they managed to metamorphose into a sky fairy in order to enhance their ability to have sex with virgins and gullible people.
There is hypocrisy in the Bible? Color me surprised!
Paul was a misogynist, we knew that already, silly. If only more Christians were like Jesus, and not like Paul...
"Logistics dictate that the buck must stop and someone must submit. Egalitarians exclude male headship, making them closet Matriarchs. "
>:( *Loads tranquilizer gun with a serum of 'Feminism is not anti-male-leadership' knowledge dart*
Besdies everything else wrong with this post, how the hell do logistics show that someone absolutely must submit? How sad that he can't imagine men and women as equals, like every time men and women interact it's automatically a power struggle with only one winner.
For over 1800 years, Christians felt it was morally OK to hold slaves then came along some men and said no.
What are these people? What is wrong with holding slaves? God tells me how to and how much etc. Holding slaves is the most biblically sound practice you can find. Why are people opposed to it?
The notion the role of women was restricted from the beginning of Christianity is FALSE. It became restricted in the 4th century, when books like The Gospel According to Mary Magdalene and the Gospel of Thomas were thrown out. Many Biblical scholars think several of the passages against women by "Paul" are later century forgeries.
I'm not meaning to "defend" Christianity, but the real history is more complicated (and more interesting) than simply, 'it's misogynist, it's always been misogynist.'
"Jesus picked 12 people to lead His Church, and Zero of them were women. We should not be like Jesus."
Jesus told his disipiles to abandon family and reject wealth and material things, good luck comparing your Priests to them.
@Meeeh
"One of the most widespread errors in interpretation is thinking the Bible was written primarily as a rule book for our 21st century American lives. That’s such a small part of what the Bible is, comparable perhaps to the popular feel-good slogan that the Bible is “God’s love letter to us.” Those who have adopted this slogan I suspect have not read the first several books of the Old Testament lately, books filled with war, and plundering, and killing. Certainly parts of it are applicable to teaching us how to live, but the Bible was not written primarily as a book of rules for life in the 21st century (or any century). None of the Biblical writers anticipated that their writings would be read, and basically worshipped, thousands of years later on the other side of the earth! They wrote for a specific audience and a specific purpose. If, however, we read it with intelligence and responsibility, its most profound truths are timeless, as is God, and these truths can indeed be the structure upon which we build our Christian lives. The foundation, however, should be Christ alone."
http://www.redletterchristians.org/god-did-not-write-the-bible/
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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