[Jewish commenter on an article on the baning of circumcision in Germany]
Will you pay if one or all your boys want to be circumcised? You should as it was your FU.....what happens when they can't get laid, except by some tramp that sleeps with uncut guys?
If I had a daughter she would be taught, first never to date or marry outside her people and secondly if she did only circumcised males.
83 comments
Let's back up here. I think it's safe to say that no man would ever actually want to stick his dick under a knife.
Now that that's out of the way, let's admit that there may be practical reasons behind certain biblical rules. Prohibition on pork products, for example, are the result of the fact that, in the arid regions of the middle east and without reasonable refrigeration techniques, it would go bad quickly and people would get sick.
I think circumcision came about for a similar reason: if you spend a lot of time in the desert without underwear, you're bound to get some sand under the foreskin. In those situations, it's probably preferable not to have a foreskin than to deal with nearly constant sand irritation.
I don't believe there are any major deserts in Germany, though. I don't think your argument is that valid.
How will she know whether the guy is cut or not, until they get naked together?
People should be allowed to do whatever the hell they want with their bodies.
Um...on average, fewer than 10% of European males are circumcised anyway. The ban affected WAY fewer people than you think it does.
Also, I'm still unclear how, in an age when Jewish cultural identity often extends beyond just "I got some skin cut off my nether regions," circumcision is still such a big deal.
Odd, seeing a Stomfront post in the fundie sec-
Oh wait it's Huffpo, and it's not a white supremacist telling his daughter not to date blacks? Odd...
If I had a daughter she would be taught, first never to date or marry outside her people
Because our people are better than any other people. We are the master race!
</sarcasm>
You know, circumcisions aren't illegal. You just need the person's consent before it happens. If your sons want to get circumcised, they can - as soon as they're old enough to decide for themselves.
No one's rights are being taken away here - in fact they're being protected, more now than ever.
I'm circumcised.
@John_in_Oz, I am too. I sometimes wonder what I'm missing in comparison with my uncircumsized brothers. I wonder if this fact is related to the fact that I don't like blowjobs. Those are real negatives. For me, though, there's at least one real positive too, like the fact that I can go for longer and be more pleasing to my partners. Call me an optimist.
I've seen a lot on the pros and cons of circumcision and it just seems that the cons out weight the pros. There is another procedure that is less invasive that merely loosens the skin to allow for better hygiene and condoms work better than removal of the easily infected foreskin.
Culturally I'm still against it, just like I'm against female genital mutilation. Mutilating a baby for anything but life saving reasons is wrong. It's their body, let them decide when they are able and not before. I feel the same about everything from ear piercings to operations on inter-sexed babies.
Also, the original circumcision rite only took away the very tip of the foreskin. Periah, the removal of the ENTIRE foreskin, only really came into being during Hellenization. Reason? It was possible to restore the removed foreskin portion with the original rite, and the Hellenes were rather avid champions of it, on account of their adoration of the unaltered body. And there were a LOT of young Hebrew men who felt pressured to perform the restoration. Periah was a way to make that impossible.
You'd think there'd at LEAST be a movement to return to the original, less-than-periah rite. At the very least, I'm guessing it hasn't picked up much steam yet in the Jewish community.
And the actual health benefits of circumcision are...?
You don't get to answer this one by pointing at your testament. If you put a puerile book of fables before your progeny you've no business being a parent.
Strip away all the fables as to why circumcision was 'invented', and what you get is it was something that dessert dwellers came up with for hygiene purposes due to water being a rare and precious commodity, and the idiotic notion that bathing was unhealthy.
Clue up, Steve; soap and water are in abundance. We can stop mutilating our baby boys now.
@Raised by Horses:
There is some evidence that circumcision may reduce the risk of contracting STDs from unprotected sex. Mind you, I'm pretty sure that an adult man can judge by himself whether to have one.
Edit: and apparently it does not reduce the chance of transmitting STDs to the other person.
I'm not trampy and to be honest, I love an uncircumcised man. The skin that's removed is actually extremely sensitive, so when it's cut a man will lose some of the sensation in his penis. Also, left intact, the skin isn't stretched so tight over his erection and the sex is more pleasurable for him. Makes things awesome for both of us.
Jesus. Nobody said you can't choose to have yourself circumcised(ew!), but no one can force it on you. Good for Germany.
Also, what? Just because sex is arguably more pleasurable(more comfortable, certainly) for unaltered males, doesn't mean that women would give a shit! Why on earth would THEY care?
"If one of your boys wants to be circumcised"
Difficult to fucking tell with a baby, mate.
I... I simply do not know what to say to this. Fuck you, too.
I don't give a crap what the quality of the sex is like for either party, or even if there is a hygiene question really involved...
Don't fucking cut off part of a person's body unless it's really fucking medically necessary... Until they're old enough to at least fucking spell "lawsuit."
Who the fuck wants to be circumcised? That's the whole point of doing it when they're infants. Also, this; "If I had a daughter she would be taught, first never to date or marry outside her people and secondly if she did only circumcised males."
Racist, fascist prick. Go screw yourself.
LOL, some guys can't get past the "denial" stage of realizing and accepting that a major chunk of their penis was hacked off. If this moron is teaching his daughter to choose based on intact/shredded penis, how is she going to find this out on the first date? oh, he's raising that sort of girl...
In the words of my mother: "Is he an adult? Fine, he can make that choice for himself, and if he wants to, he wants to. Is he an a infant? Then wait until he can make the decision himself."
I go a bit more extreme than her, though. I think if you were born with it, and it's not causing you any problems, then leave it alone for pete's sake.
the baning of circumcision in Germany
Woah! Stop right there. Let's check our facts.
From a legal standpoint, circumcision has not been banned in Germany. All that happened was that a court ruled that it can be seen as criminal assault and bodily injury. There's no government bann, although indirectly it does amount to the same thing.
This isn't going to stop Rabbis and Imams from doing it, it'll just be done behind closed doors and not in the hospitals where the doctors will be afraid of litigation from one side or another.
@ John_in_Oz:
But I agree with the U.S. first amendment. The State has no right to dictate to parents who are trying to do their best by their kids, in the parent's best judgement, no matter how crazy they are.
The First Amendment does not give anyone the right to perform unnecessary surgery on someone incapable of consent.
If female "circumcision" is wrong, then so is the male version.
@dfmfundies: "The First Amendment does not give anyone the right to perform unnecessary surgery on someone incapable of consent. "
It's not that simple. Here's what the Bible said in Genesis 17: "And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations ... And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." That's a pretty clear order with serious consequences coming from what observant Jews believe to be God himself.
The Constitution's free exercise clause doesn't give license to do things contrary to civil law, but the courts have held that the law must make "reasonable accommodation". Whether allowing infants to be circumcised constitutes reasonable accommodation would be a judgment call.
I'm circumcised, I've read the research about circumcision and even though I'm not practicing Jew, I'll probably have my sons circumcised. My girlfriend agrees and she's about as Atheist as you can get. Fact is the foreskin is little more then a left over remnant of our earlier evolution, we don't need it for any practical purpose anyway.
While I feel like Germany probably went too far in outright banning the practice ((Much in the same way France went too far by banning the burqa)), I think this guy's asshole reactionary opinion earns him a spot on this site.
While circumcision may no longer serve a practical purpose, it's done at an early enough age that it also doesn't affect the child's psyche and is therefore not hurting anyone. Like Kosher, if the parents want to have it done then that is their right.
@ #1419062
Well fuck you too buddy. Reform and Secular Jews are decent people, it's only the Orthodox that are the problem.
Well, Jews have enough political clout as it is. They are free to circumcise their own children if they choose to. Why should non-Jewish children be forced to have their tallywackers mutilated when they are not even part of this religion. When our oldest was born they tried to forcefully circumcise him at the hospital, but we refused. The doctor (who was Jewish) claimed that many Christian families also go in for circumcision and that it's "beneficial to the baby's health." Needless to say, we told him where to get off. If Jewish people want to do this to their own children that is fine, but it's none of their business putting a mark of ownership on the rest of our children.
How about just washing your kid when he's a baby, and teaching him how to wash his pee-pee himself when he's old enough to climb into the tub by himself?
I'm with the ancient Greeks on this- a naked knob looks barbaric.
It should be pointed out that it was a rather low court. To quote my dad, a german lawyer: "Landgericht Cologne (lit. "state court"), who are they?". And he's right. There is LOTS of legal room yet to be used.
Sadly, lots of politicians hop on the "free religion" bandwagon in order, I guess, get votes. Sad.
@His4Life:
Your post above makes some sense, except for the first sentence and the last four lines.
Saying that "Jews have enough political clout as it is" is a dangerous statement - we should be concerned about _any_ religious group abusing politics to force their beliefs on others. This quote aside, singling out the Jewish population in particular has been used to justify incredible evil.
For the last few lines: are you saying that those certifications are somehow relevant to this discussion? If so, it would be like me using my PhD to claim some expertise in medicine. Whatever "prophetic ministry" may mean, it is not relevant to the legal discussion of if infant circumcision counts as assault. I personally would say that it does, but I'm not a doctor of law either, so my opinion should not be given undue weight.
@His4Life
Finally, some sense out of you. Oh, and in case you haven't seen it already, heads up. RSTDT has been attacked by troll(s) from Chimpmania. I don't know if you want to see an almost endless stream of n-words and bigotry that are enough to make ME blush, so...
Because screw human rights for male babies?
Infant circumcision needs to be illegal everywhere. It's mutilation, plain and simple, and something a man should decide for himself as an adult.
If it's any comfort to circumscised males, I once saw an interview (by Phil Donohue) with a Russian Jewish immigrant to the US, who had a circumcision as an adult because in the former Soviet Union, religious restrictions had prevented his parents from doing it when he was a baby.
He claimed that the removal of the foreskin exposed more sensitive areas, thereby greatly increasing sexual pleasure.
Do't know if it was true or not, but just sayin'.
@Stonespiral
Anon, to clarify, I am not anti-Jewish. Obviously as a Christian I recognize that my faith is rooted in Judaism and that Jesus was in fact Jewish. Growing up just a few blocks from a predominantly Jewish neighborhood in a major metropolitan area, I knew many Jewish and for the most part they were very nice, godly people.
What I mean is that the Jewish religion as a group is sometimes given undue deference in the public arena, often for the reasons you cite (people don't want to be accused of being anti-semitic by criticizing Jewish practices like circumcision). A concrete example would be how much money the U.S. sends to Israel every year, despite the fact that Israel is an oppressive society not all that different from apartheid South Africa.
The last four lines are just my signature line. I sign all of my posts that way so that people know where I'm coming from and what my background is. The certificate of prophetic ministry just means that my church recognizes me as having that particular spiritual gift and has authorized me to practice the gift of prophesy in a public worship setting. You're free to reject those credentials if they conflict with your belief system.
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J. James, ugh... thanks for the heads up. I'll go over and check it out, but I don't have a lot of time to debate with them.
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@ John:
The Constitution's free exercise clause doesn't give license to do things contrary to civil law, but the courts have held that the law must make "reasonable accommodation". Whether allowing infants to be circumcised constitutes reasonable accommodation would be a judgment call.
Mormons are not allowed to engage in polygamy. Native Americans may not use peyote. And those involve consenting adults.
The courts can overrule Jehovah's Witness parents and order blood transfusions for children.
It wouldn't be a stretch to outlaw circumcision.
I'm a circumsized Jew, and even though I'm not yet old enough for sexual intercourse, I don't particularly mind. Although not particularly useful and it can be a drag to some, the process is safe and I see no reason why it should be banned. If it's painful, you won't remember how it felt, anyway, and you won't be scarred for life.
@ Wykked Wytch
@ toth and dfmfundies
@dynaboyj: No one's trying to get it banned, we just want the person's consent before the surgery takes place.
The parents' religious beliefs does not trump the child's religious - not to mention bodily - freedom.
I would say that the right to life and physical integrity of the child trumps the right to religious freedom of the parents.
But like others said, this was a decision of a fairly low court. We will have to wait how the higher courts will decide this issue.
(*sings *):
'When he's doing a Bar Mitzvah
-"Pretty Fly For A Rabbi", Weird Al Yankovic
Did you know that when before Jonah was swallowed by that whale, to ensure the whole thing was as Kosher as possible, he hired the services of four Rabbis expert in the use of scuba gear. Yes, ladies and germs, he sent down four skin divers!
Thank you, I'm here all week. Try the gefilte fish! (*gestures to band; plays "Hava Nagila" *) X3
Circumcision is a barbaric act of aggression on a new born child. It is genital mutialation unless there is a genuine medical reason for it.
The trend in America seems to be away from it, so your daughter is going to have to sleep around with a lot of men before she finds her mutilated man.
@Mudak
@John_in_Oz, I am too. I sometimes wonder what I'm missing in comparison with my uncircumsized brothers. I wonder if this fact is related to the fact that I don't like blowjobs.
No, it's not. I'm circumsized and I can assure you, I find blowjobs to be quite pleasurable.
@dynaboyj
"I'm a circumsized Jew, and even though I'm not yet old enough for sexual intercourse, I don't particularly mind. Although not particularly useful and it can be a drag to some, the process is safe and I see no reason why it should be banned. If it's painful, you won't remember how it felt, anyway, and you won't be scarred for life."
Actually, I remember reading that intense pain can cause neurological damage. I don't know if it is actually accurate, but if it is I'd suspect that it would be particularly devastating for a newborn, what with their extreme sensitivity and not yet having learned to deal with pain.
As for the safety part, it is relatively safe, yes, but there is always an element risk with surgery, and while rare, botched circumcisions can and do happen. See the case of David Reimer .
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