How does letting women die rather than giving them an abortion benefit women?
Because far more women are aborted than die as a result of their pregnancies going awry. The very idea that letting a few women die is worse than killing literally millions of unborn women shows that PZ [Myers] not only isn't thinking like a scientist, he's quite clearly not thinking rationally at all. If PZ is going to be intellectually consistent here, then he should be quite willing to support the abortion of all black fetuses, since blacks disproportionately commit murder and 17x more people could be saved by aborting black fetuses than permitting the use of abortion to save the life of a mother. 466 American women die in pregnancy every year whereas 8,012 people died at the hands of black murderers in 2010.
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Wow, I don't even really know where to start with this. I mean, I thought they were being facetious when bringing up black murderers, but no, they're dead serious.
President Camacho,
You are right. I agree.
Except someone should point out that in a lot of cases if the mother dies then the baby will also die. Not all, but some. Would they change their stance then? I suspect not.
I also think that most fathers would take the mother over the child in such situations (not that abortion is really their decision alone). What this means is that this stance is going to piss off both most women and most men. Heck, it pisses me off.
If I am threatening someone's life and the only way to save them is for them to kill me then they are legally allowed to do so in self-defense. Even if there is no willful intent like if I had gone completely insane, it would still be self-defense.
So, this guy is saying fetuses deserve more of a right to life than everybody else.
This blog entry has been posted previously. argumentum ad ignoratum .It's important to understand that one need not find these answers to be absolutely conclusive or even convincing to recognize that they are scientifically valid answers, which is to say that they can be used to generate hypotheses and then subsequently put to the scientific test, at least to the extent that social science can reasonably be considered science.
It's not racist either. He is not arguing for aborting blacks. He is anti -abortion. His response is in effect that Myers' logic leads to an absurd conclusion and should therefore be rejected.
As I mentioned the previous time these hypotheticals were posted, Vox is all kinds of crazy, but this post isn't it.
I was flattered to have my FSTDT hero Old Viking endorse my words, and suggest we should just move on.
Until the fetus's brain is developed enough to support consciousness, it is difficult to argue that it is a person.
I'll choose for the rights of a woman, who is a person already.
Edit:
Yeah, Not racist like John_in_Oz said.
letting a few women die
Ok, let's follow this logic further:
Letting lots of old people die early will help save Medicare and many others will be able to get help and live longer. So kiss grandma goodbye. When she croaks, she'll be benefiting you. Rejoice.
Don't save any car accident victims! Let them die. That way there will be less cars on the road, resulting in less accidents. More people will live.
The list could be very long.
I wonder if Vox Day would accept his/her lot "thinking like a scientist" if his/her number were to fall. I doubt it very much.
since genocide on blacks is not an option I fail to see the relevance of the argument.
Is it better to strap a woman down in a hospital (mental) for say 7 months to prevent her trying to force a miscarriage or obtain an abortion ? Who takes responsibility if she dies in childbirth anyway ? suppose she has one abortion because the child was from a rape, and then goes on to have three more children, all wanted and in a loving home ?
The popular voice will cry for bloodsports and popcorn and beer every time.
More men than women are born, but more women than men survive infancy.
What part of "banning abortions will not reduce abortion rates" don't you understand, Voxy? The only thing you will achieve is killing living persons along with non-viable lumps of cells.
How many people die at the hands of white murderers?
How many innocent, minors and mentally challenged people are executed in the US each year? Way too many!
whereas 8,012 people died at the hands of black murderers in 2010
Too bad you weren't one of them, prick.
Not racist. As somebody already said, Vox Day is speaking hypothetically regarding the black fetuses thing. This part is telling:
So, he's saying what he thinks follows logically from PZ Myers' line of thinking, not saying it's his (Vox Day's) actual opinion (though it might be, of course...).
"Women" are not aborted, slapnuts. There is no rational argument against women not having control over their reproductive cycle or having access to safe abortion services when needed.
As for Myers, he's a closed-minded, dogmatic, bigoted, feminist wank.
Like some of the commenters on this site, PZ Myers is just another prime example of He Who Fights Monsters . PZ has a colossally arrogant attitude and appears to refuse to acknowledge the merit of another person's ideas if they don't agree with his own, even if those ideas are logical and based on reality. Really, though, this post is almost certainly several times worse than anything PZ has ever said, if for no other reason than Vox's racism and willingness to lie to justify it are showing badly.
On the other hand, I don't recall PZ ever making racist remarks, much less blatantly racist remarks with no citations to back them up, and I don't recall him lying to support anything he says (but, again, I don't read his blog, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). On the other hand, a quick search through the FSTDT archive will show Vox is quite fond of doing that. Anyone who is familiar with Vox should know he is not just speaking "rhetorically" here; his words in this particular context may be rhetorical, but his actual racist beliefs are what led him to form this particular comparison. In effect, he is attempting to use his own hatred and prejudice to smear another person .
This post also does not take anything regrading abortion rights to its "logical conclusion." Proposing this idea as the "logical conclusion" of supporting abortion rights to save women shows the racism and ignorance of the person criticizing it.
Even if the survival rate of babies in these cases was 100% when the mother is allowed to die, there would still be a net loss in baby production (Which is what Vox considers the most important part of evolution), because there would be a (+1)+(-1)=1 X 50% situation and then you would have to wait until the female babies reach sexual maturity before THEY can breed, while if the mother is saved, she could have been poppin' out buns every 9 months for those 15 years (assuming we're just going for breedable age).
I'm only talking life or death cases, of course. The total number of babies WOULD go up if ALL abortion were illegalized, but in THIS scenario, if Vox Duh wants to maximize births, his plan would undermine that.
Abortion is the woman's choice, and no one else's. Not Vox's, not PZ's... no one but the one facing that choice.
Off topic: And the murder rate statistics are actually based on murders actually reported and people convicted, and don't include murders not reported or people not convicted. if you have a good lawyer or there were no witnesses to the crime, the murder isn't registered (It might not make a difference. but just pointing that out)
DIE *
*Combustion optional
I owe FSTFTers an apology.
Usually, when the pregnant woman dies, the fetus' chance to survive is is very slim. So, we let a functional human being die, for the off chance of having a fetus survive! Sorry, woman, not a functional human being!
"8,012 people died at the hands of black murderers in 2010."
Unless the state is inherently racist, as in Nazi Germany, how would you know that these murders were all committed by people with dark coloured skin?
Those millions of poor aborted women who leave their partners, families, and communities to miss them. Oh, that's right, the don't have those things because they are not women!
Pregnancy deaths are low because we allow life-saving medical procedures.
When a black person kills you,you're dead,that's it.Medicine and surgery won't help.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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