(in a thread referencing Obama's leaving war crimes prosecutions open to possibility)
This is very, very disturbing to me. These government officials kept us safe by utilizing unconventional methods of interrogation on enemy combatants. These accusations of "torture" are coming from the fringe left who are rabid in their hatred for the Bush administration. They're not seeking justice; they're seeking revenge. God, give us strength. We're witnessing the demise of America on every level.
78 comments
remember Nuremburg
the ends do not justify the means.
Obeying orders is no defence
The US attorneys pursued to the gallows those responsible; should they do less now?
So waterboarding is just an "unconventional method of interrogation". I'm so glad to hear that.
I used to believe that waterboarding is a kind of torture you know. Like the US called it after WWII where american prisoners of war have been waterboa^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H interrogated unconventionally.
MfG
"We're witnessing the demise of America on every level."
Funny, looks more like we're regaining the justice and respect for human rights that made the country great to me.
'Kept us safe?' By failing miserably to capture Osama Bin Laden like they said they would, and then going after a totally unrelated country? And somehow this justifies torture, which often gives unreliable information anyways? Not to mention, illegally wiretapping?
This must be some new usage of the word 'safe' I've never heard of.
How telling it is that a so called Christian is supporting torture.
It was torture when the Japanese did it on Americans and they were punished. What has changed since WWII in your feeble religious mind?
Besides this little tidbit, USA do not have a justice system, it has an 18th century punishment system which is why a country with less than 5% of the worlds population has more than 25% of the world prison population.
Yup, and painful electronic shocks to the genitals isn't torture it's "testes-toasting". And beating the base of the feet with steel bars isn't torture, it's "soul slapping". And nailing someone to a cross and leaving them to suffocate isn't torture, it's "saviour swinging".
"These government officials kept us safe..."
No, they made you all much *less* safe. Gitmo was (and still is) one of al-Qaeda's greatest recruiting sergeants and the Western world as a whole will suffer because of it for many years to come. Thanks.
"...by utilizing unconventional methods of interrogation on enemy combatants."
Nice try. Torture is still torture no matter which ridiculous euphemism you try to hide it behind.
"We're witnessing the demise of America on every level."
Yes, you are. You were supposed to be the good guys and then, because of your right-wing, warmongering, brain-dead "Christian" former president *and* because you should have known better, you became worse than the criminals you rail against. Well done.
"These government officials kept us safe by utilizing unconventional methods of interrogation on enemy combatants. "
Until Shrubya decides you're an enemy combatant and uses unconventional methods of interrogation on you. Then you discover, too late, that you weren't as safe as you thought you were.
Waterboarding contravenes the Geneva Conventions with respect to the treatment of prisoners of war. The United States signed and ratified that treaty and Bush's declaration of intent to disregard it does not change that fact.
It is also fiercely debatable as to whether waterboarding was useful in preventing another terrorist attack on American soil. As draco_nite stated, torture does not provide reliable information: people lie to stop the torture.
This is very, very encouraging to me. These government officials made us less safe worldwide by utilizing unconventional methods of interrogation on enemy combatants. These denials of "torture" are coming from the fringe right who are rabid in their hatred for the Obama administration. They're not seeking justice; they're seeking revenge. FSM, give us strength. We're witnessing the enlightenment and return to decency and ethics of America on every level.
Um yeah, because that torture was nothing short of revenge.
Listen, if it was soo effective then why did they have to do it over 250 times?
Remember in WW2 when we were the good guys.
And I want to see what this torture saved us from?
"...No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat or war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture. . . . An order from a superior officer or a public authority may not be invoked as a justification of torture."
(And weren't the Retardlicans in charge of the senate in '94?)
Read this slowly so that you don't miss anything.
If we allow "unconventional" methods of interrogation, then we have no leg to stand on when other groups use such methods on our troops.
Got it?
Let's see what tune you'd be singing if the Bush administration took your kid without due process, detained him without charges for an indefinite period of time, and waterboarded him or her until they felt satisfied with the information they got.
Bet Bush wouldn't be so holy then, would he? Well guess what? All the people he detained are someone's kids. Someone's fathers. Someone's brother so r sisters...they aren't soulless creatures, they're human beings.
"utilizing unconventional methods of interrogation on enemy combatants."
If it's not technically defined as torture, it probably has something to do with the fact that the Bush administration made sure to keep the, "unconventional methods of interrogation," under what is technically defined as torture.
Your country used torture.
Let me say that again: Your. Country. Used. Torture. Not "unconventional methods", but torture.
If anything, President Obama is far too soft on those who signed the orders. But let there be no doubt: You lost a lot of sympathy and moral high ground. You are only now beginning to work your way back up.
If, as the case may indeed be, it turns out that my country actively helped your country torturing people, I want those responsible convicted and put behind bars.
On the HLN scroller yesterday it said that churchgoers were much more likely to approve of torture. Somehow I'm not surprised.
@949566
As Bush has now left the office, the demise is over for this time. Now we might actually see some real politics from the country Over There. Not just kissing up to the oil magnates of the world.
There is hardly no "left" in the US, it's just Right and Ultra-Right. And by the way, we real leftis don't hate Bush, we despise him, loathe him. He is not intelligent enough to hate.
"These government officials kept us safe by utilizing unconventional methods of interrogation on enemy combatants." That could have been said by SS or SA supporters, i.e. Nazis, in the aftermath of WWII.
These government officials kept us safe by utilizing unconventional methods of interrogation on enemy combatants.
So, what would you say if the iranian or north korean airforce would shoot a US plane down, capture its pilots and then use such unconventional methods of interrogation on them? Of course all just with the intention to keep their country safe ;)
Snatched from Wikipedia :
"Waterboarding is a form of torture that consists of immobilizing the victim on his or her back with the head inclined downwards, and then pouring water over the face and into the breathing passages. By forced suffocation and inhalation of water, the subject experiences drowning and is caused to believe they are about to die. It is considered a form of torture by legal experts, politicians, war veterans, intelligence officials, military judges, and human rights organizations. As early as the Spanish Inquisition it was used for interrogation purposes, to punish and intimidate, and to force confessions.
In contrast to submerging the head face-forward in water, waterboarding precipitates a gag reflex almost immediately. The technique does not inevitably cause lasting physical damage. It can cause extreme pain, dry drowning, damage to lungs, brain damage from oxygen deprivation, other physical injuries including broken bones due to struggling against restraints, lasting psychological damage or, ultimately, death. Adverse physical consequences can start manifesting months after the event; psychological effects can last for years."
And you seem to be defending this. "Nuremberg award for defending infamous regimes despite all reason and evidence" goes to you, BOC.
To loosely paraphrase George Carlin:
If you want to know how stupid the term "unconventional" is in this case, then all you have to do is realize that Jeffrey Dahmer had unconventional cooking techniques.
"This is very, very disturbing to me."
"We're witnessing the demise of America on every level'
Unconventional methods = war crimes = torture = sin again a fellow human being = right wing approval.
As to 'God give us strength. Not a valid prayer. Scripture says: 'Vengeance is Mine saith the Lord. I will repay!'
If America bases its morality on war crimes, then it's as well that it sinks forever beneath the waves without trace, and that its name never be mentioned again in saecula saeculorum. the same for any other country that has a similar base.
Strange. I always thought America was the good guy who boffed those who indulged in war crimes!
Now Spain is taking action that may lead to extraditions of Americans for trial in Spain on charges that they abused Spanish citizens in Guantanamo. Should it stop at that, or on GWB's and Cheney's desks?
Obama has said no to "unconventional methods of interrogation" as you put it. And he's kept us safe for more than 100 days since he was president.
No attacks on US interests since 1/20/2009. He must be doing something right. :)
@The Skeptic Wept: "Is there actually anyone to the right of Ann Coulter?"
Sure - way to the right. On a right wing 0 - 10 scale she's only about a 7 or 8. Check out StormFront.org if you really want to make your hair stand on end.
It really is amazing how EASILY many Christians accept using torture. It never requires anything but the slightest pressure and immediately they've rationalized turning the whole thing on its head. Not begging God to forgive them for their tortures, but actually asking for His assistance in applying them. And of course, using doublethink where they're not actually doing the torturing, that's what their enemies do.
I made the mistake of reading the rest of the thread and now I feel sick. To quote George Carlin, those people at RR are, "stupid, full of shit and fucking nuts!" Especially the tool who is comparing this to The Purge in Russia.
I am not from the "fringe" left. I don't support torture, but even more so I'm fucking pissed off that they lied about it. Usually when people lie, it's because they KNOW what they did was wrong.
I don't want to see the operatives who did the hands on torture in court. I'm sure they are damaged enough by the horrible things they've done to other human beings. Living with that, knowing what they are capable of is their punishment.
I want to see the slease bags who sat behind desks scribbling memos, mincing words, and abusing their authority to rot in prison. You should too. These people don't give a shit about you or America. Stop defending them.
Well no surprise that Christians see torture as OK. After all they have a long history of...err..."utilizing unconventional methods of interrogation". They have used them to identify heretics and witches, to make people recant non-canon scientific views, and also just simply to punish enemies of the church.
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Yes and Waterboarding is almost the least of the "unconventional" methods used. They also used intense psychological torture. One Muslim man had a red substance rubbed on his face by a scantily clad woman who was menstruating and was lead to believe it was menstrual blood then had his water cut off for 3 days in his cell so he couldn't wash. This is especially traumatic to a Muslim man as it is considered a dire sin to touch a woman in her period without washing afterward and menstrual blood is considered in the Islamic faith to be incredibly unclean and he was not allowed to wash it off for 3 days and the female interrogator pressured him for those 3 days before they flushed a Koran down the toilet in front of him.
Disgusting.
"These accusations of "torture" are coming from the fringe left who are rabid in their hatred for the Bush administration."
Right, because everyone who thinks torture is wrong, or that it doesn't work because it gets those tortured to say anything the torturer wants (so says the CIA) are from the Far Left.
Been watching Bill O'Reilly lately? Who, by the way, has probably never faced anything truly discriminatory in his life? Who gets paid to spew "the truth" (i.e., his opinion) that others take as Gospel?
That thread shows genuinely evil. At the risk of a Godwin I have no doubt some of the RRites would have been be cheerfully herding the Jews and homosexuals into the gas chambers under the Third Reich.
Edit: There are actually a couple of rapturites on the thread condemning torture. I can see the ban-hammer being raised.
They're not seeking justice; they're seeking revenge.
Kinda like, I dunno, invading a country that did nothing to you because they might have agreed with your opponent?
^^^
True. The Japanese who waterboarded US prisoners in WWII were tried for war crimes. I'm not sure what's changed since then.
Speaking as a Brit, if you look at it in any greater depth Churchill was lying when he said the UK didn't do torture. Google "London Cage"for details. In fact, we actually did quite a lot of torturing. carrying on for at at least three years after the war was over.
I'm not proud of this.
"True. The Japanese who waterboarded US prisoners in WWII were tried for war crimes. I'm not sure what's changed since then."
Also, a number of SS officers were convicted in the deaths of unarmed American POWs captured during the Battle of the Bulge.
As usual, the raptureretards are whining because their idol, GWB, isn't allowed to run again for office and the Rethuglicans lost both houses in the last election. Obama's done a lot more to improve America's name in 100 days than Dumbya did in 8 years. But to the raptureretards, Dumbya is worthy of 'God' status himself because he & his party wanted a Christo-fascist USA.
Hi Torgo.
What a fine advertisement for their brand of bat-shittery. If I was religious I'd pray that they're never allowed anywhere near any position of power. All joking apart, I had thought the RRites were just amusing but harmless lunatics. I can now see them for the dangerous would-be fascists they are and I hope the powers-that-be are keeping a close eye on them.
Edit:
Sol:
Yeah,a few of those posters - the mods especially - are seriously bad news. I'm not joking: I think those nutbars are stockpiling more than food.
Most of the poor folks at RR are quite benign, however, and they seem to rely on that board for the majority of their supportive social contact. (I'm not slagging them; I mean this in the nicest way possible.)
I really wish those people - the ones with sad personal stories that drove them to embrace the idea of a rapture - would get the hell away from that callous death cult at RR and at least move to a board where acceptance doesn't depend on allegiance to an extreme political ideology.
Nutcase (Torgo) wroteI think those nutbars are stockpiling more than food
Living in Europe, I find it weird that last December private US citizens supposedly bought 1,529,635,000 rounds of ammunition through official channels. How many of those rounds might be in the hands of fundie lunatics is terrifying.
Apologies for the wingnutdaily link but http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=96677
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Banned in seconds and censored now, of course.
There is evil there that does not sleep.
I missed the screenshot of MrManns reply but he told me atheists were confined to the apologetics forum.
No explanation, of course, as to why this person thinks that "unconventional methods of interrogation" are better than the conventional kind, which one would think were conventional for a reason.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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