But there's a more fundamental point. What precisely is being criminalized? Not bad driving. Not destruction of property. Not the taking of human life or reckless endangerment. The crime is having the wrong substance in your blood. Yet it is possible, in fact, to have this substance in your blood, even while driving, and not commit anything like what has been traditionally called a crime.
What have we done by permitting government to criminalize the content of our blood instead of actions themselves? We have given it power to make the application of the law arbitrary, capricious, and contingent on the judgment of cops and cop technicians. Indeed, without the government's "Breathalyzer," there is no way to tell for sure if we are breaking the law.
Sure, we can do informal calculations in our head, based on our weight and the amount of alcohol we have had over some period of time. But at best these will be estimates. We have to wait for the government to administer a test to tell us whether or not we are criminals. That's not the way law is supposed to work. Indeed, this is a form of tyranny.
Now, the immediate response goes this way: drunk driving has to be illegal because the probability of causing an accident rises dramatically when you drink. The answer is just as simple: government in a free society should not deal in probabilities. The law should deal in actions and actions alone, and only insofar as they damage person or property. Probabilities are something for insurance companies to assess on a competitive and voluntary basis.
22 comments
It's actually funny because what is being criminalized is something he declares isn't: reckless endangerment. By driving while inebriated you are recklessly endangering yourself, other people and property.
@AltShift: That's not what he's complaining about. His complaint is that the average citizen has no certain measure to know if they're DUI, which is true. Perhaps all vehicles should have breathalyzers for that reason.
Hey, Llewellyn. It doesn't matter. A car is not your fucking right. You have to get certified. You have to prove you are able to use one responsibly, and guess what motherfucker: being functionally impaired is not responsible use. You violate the trust people have put in you, and thankfully this is still punishable.
And yes, the government uses breathalyzers because you simply cannot be trusted. If telling the truth will get you punished, while lying will help you avoid it, you have an incentive to lie right there. Of course, you personally might not lie, you might be unusually principled or whatever, perhaps you're a cut above the rest like that, but no thanks I'm not bying it for Joe Average.
If you feel you should drive after drinking what you want, I doubt if you'll find a free-market actuary who'll approve insurance for you to drive.
Government should not deal in probabilities, you say? Well, there's no point in having first responders - ambulance, police, fire, coastguard - on call all the time then; they should only be called up when something has actually happened. No need for earthworks to protect floodplains or walls to prevent the spread of fire. No need for coastal defenses or barriers to stop you driving off a mountain road. Usually these works are undertaken on a huge scale, which is why we have something called a "government" that co-ordinates them. A "free society" for Mr Rockwell would seem to be somewhere rather less like Japan, the Netherlands or Switzerland and rather more like Bangladesh.
There are plenty of substances that are illegal to possess because of their destructive capabilities or the fact that people use them to harm others. Both of these conditions apply to drunk driving.
This is like arguing since walking around with a knife isn't illegal, it should be legal to smuggle one on a plane with you. Try it and see how fast the TSA hauls you off to jail.
@ #1580957
I'm sure it's perfectly legal for someone to go out and buy their own breathalyzer if they wanted to. A friend of mine got a DUI conviction and had to have one installed as a condition of getting his license back. He had to blow on it to start the car.
Edit: Yup, you can get them on eBay for under $5. Guess you don't have to depend on the government to tell you you're too drunk to drive.
I think it's ridiculous that these guys go on about DUI like it's the most harmless thing that never hurt/killed anyone or caused property damage. The booze must've fried their brains!
Anyone notice how there are these "new 'dangerous moron/bigot' movements" that are in vogue, these days?
MRAs, Redhead-hating, DUIers, Anti-Vaxxers...what's going on, man? It's like people WANT to be dangerous douches!
Listen shithead, if you want to be "free" then move to the middle of the woods or a deserted island. That way you can do whatever you want and not hurt anybody else.
Meanwhile, here in SOCIETY you are going to have some responsibility towards the other people you are sharing the road with.
Should I be able to walk down the street and fire a gun randomly? I mean until one of my bullets hits a person, I haven't committed a crime. Hurp a libertarian fucking duhr.
Attempted murder should not be a crime, since the defendant's actions did not lead to an actual murder. It's based on the probability that the defendant would try again, and the law shouldn't deal in probabilities. Only actual murders should be prosecuted.
What have we done by permitting government to criminalize the content of our blood instead of actions themselves? We have given it power to make the application of the law arbitrary, capricious, and contingent on the judgment of cops and cop technicians. Indeed, without the government's "Breathalyzer," there is no way to tell for sure if we are breaking the law.
Your action was getting drunk and then getting behind the wheel. By your logic, I should be able to ignore red lights and drive as fast as I want as long as I don't actually cause an accident. If it were just you, I'd be glad to let you do it, and then cheer when you drove your car off an embankment and turned into a fireball. But odds are that you'll take someone with you, and that is not OK.
Would you be happy to apply the same dispensation to, I dunno, pilots ?
Want to know if you are DUI ? Simple, have I consumed alcohol in the 24 hours before getting behind the wheel ? No, then I'm good to go. Yes, Hmmm, I might be.
#1580957 said:
His complaint is that the average citizen has no certain measure to know if they're DUI
Very simple!
If you have a drink, you do not drive. No need for complicated stuff. Drinking and driving does not belong together - period! Not one glass or two drinks - have ZERO before you drive! The US is way too lax in it's limits. Way too high limits in the first place!
Actually the crime is reckless endangerment you stupid asshole.
I don't know why Libertarians think society would just be this great Utopian thing if we just let everyone do whatever the fuck they wanted even at the cost of endangering others. Maybe they should move to Somalia and find out what that's actually like.
Yes, we sould also teach or children it's perfectly OK to run around holding the point of the scissors at their eyes. I mean, until they actually stab themselves in their eyes, that is.
@ 1580957
Ah-hahaha no. Breathalyzers can be bought, you know, and there's a perfect solution for the "average citizen": if he even suspects he's drunk, he shouldn't drive. And if he's such an asshole he has to literally fall over before he admits he's drunk, he should get slammed by the cops. Or at least I think so, given that my definition of personal responsibility is thus: never invalidate the trust other people have put on you.
Endangering life or property is a crime. That is why running through a stop light is a crime, that is why driving with someone on the roof of your car is a crime, that is why drunk driving is a crime, because you are endangering lives and property.
The government is policing our BLOOD! TYRANNY! If I want to drink four beers and a bottle of Nyquil before I drive my SUV down the highway at rush hour, that's my business, damnit!
And lolbertarians wonder why they can't be taken seriously...
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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