Not that it’s not a good idea to give students loans, it certainly is a good idea to give them loans. But if you can ignore the Constitution to do something good today, tomorrow you will be ignoring the Constitution to do something bad. You could. There are more people in our, in America today of German ancestry than any other [inaudible]. The Holocaust that occurred in Germany — how in the heck could that happen? And when you start down the wrong road, it can be a very slippery slope.
58 comments
So the Constitution (peace be upon it) is the new God, the new all-wise giver of morals!
Gentlemen, we have discovered the Constitution Fundy !
As Leighton Buzzard asks, so ask I: which part of the constitution forbids student loans.
I don't believe a constitution could be so specific. It is composed, perforce, of broad principles.
Nor do I see any connection between student loans and the holocaust.
Something wrong here. A lack of joined-up thinking.
WTF- Oh wait, it's a politician. A Republican politician.
I'd like to know exactly where in the Constitution does it say that students shouldn't be given loans? Did they pass a new amendment recently? And how does giving students loans equate with the Holocaust?
I guess Republicans think that the only way anyone should go to college is on daddy's money.
Constitutions are emphatically meant to be Fundamental Law. If he were to be a 'Constitution Fundy', there would be nothing wrong with that.
" tomorrow you will be ignoring the Constitution to do something bad. "
You're a little late for that, see the Bush anti-constitution act, passed in 2001.
So...today you give a student a loan so they may better educate themselves, tomorrow they will be gassing some minority or another.
That's not a slippery slope, it's a sheer cliff.
Yes, I agree, ignoring the Constitution to do something good could set a precedent for ignoring it to do something bad.
I don't quite follow how getting student loans would be unconstitutional, but whatever...
Also:
Some German ancestry here, however I haven't felt any sudden urges to go goosestepping down the street or to start tossing people into ovens.
This is not a slippery slope argument; this is base jumping without a parachute.
I honestly found the reaction of liberal blogs to this more hilarious than the what this fucktard actually said. Expecially the outrage of reading this as an ethnic slur against Germans.
I am an actual German btw, born to Germans, bred in Germany, schooled in Germany and currently lving in Germany - and believe me when Orthodox Jews equate me to Hitler just because I speak the same mother tongue, I'm offended - but the foe outrage of some is just silly.
And, just as a sidebar, the Holocaust happend under German rule, but not completely on German territory (even with pre-WW2 borders).
Apparently, people in America aren't allowed to do anything that twisted logic could vaguely suggest that the constitution opposes. The constitution was written a long time ago. I do not understand this obsession with treating it like it is the be-all and end-all of modern life in the US. Here's a thought. Ignore the constitution when it's wrong, or pass an amendment. Follow the constitution (or better still, some sort of moral compass) when it's right. This is supposing that the constitution actually could be supposed to make any judgement on the giving of student loans, which seems far-fetched even for fundies.
"RSTDTs - The Nationality-Hating Edition!"
Most Germans, be they American or from "The Old Country" LOATHE NAZIS! Heck, in Germany, the Nazi swastika is censored or outright banned!
What's with these weirdos getting bigoted against Germans, lately? It's certainly a new, novel kind of bigotry.
@ Xotan
It's all incredibly stupid.
Of course, Roscoe & his ilk ignore the Constitution all the time and hardly notice or care.
There are more people in our, in America today of German ancestry than any other [inaudible]. The Holocaust that occurred in Germany
So therefore most Americans are Nazis that want death camps? It's an incredibly stupid assertion but it's the only one that can possibly be gathered from this curious segue. I'm of Italian ancestry. Does that mean I'm going to start a new Renaissance?
Student loans aren't against the Constitution.
@gravematter,
If the government could just ignore the Constitution when it's wrong then it could do that for anything in the Constitution. Protesters inconvenient during a war, they'd ignore the first amendment.
SpukiKitty: The Nazi swastika ("Hakenkreuz") is banned for propaganda and historically inaccurate material (video games for example), but very spefically allowed for historic content (documentaries, pictures, paintings, fictional content in TV, movies and books). Were exactly it is allowed and were not is a case to case decision, because the law itself isn't so clear. The Hindu swastika ("Swastika") is allowed.
The American right was all gully with Germany since Merkel ran the austerity rout in the Debt Crisis, probably thinking Germany might turn conservative, but since every German on the internet has been telling them that we won't abandon our welfare state and they should go to hell, we've become the evil Nazis again.
Is he suggesting that because the Constitution doesn't give Congress the specific power to buy pencils or provide electricity and telephone service to the White House that appropriations for those purposes are unconstitutional? First of all, the government doesn't give student loans; it co-signs them. Secondly, the power to do so is granted in the first sentence of the Constitution, which creates the power to "promote the general welfare".
Basically, the government has the power to spend money on almost anything the representatives believe is good for the country. If you disagree, elect different representatives.
Don't apologize, vote.
Considering that:
I hate to see how Rep. Bartlett's came to the conclusion that student loans are a slippery slope to the Holocaust.
slippery slopes use Astroglide for even better slipperyness.
yes , what part of the constitution forbids student loans ?
I think that latinos outnumber the germans. The germans however make a potato salad to die for.
OMG !! just noticed this is from a politician ? Oh well it is america.
All right. While the constitution doesn't specifically call out education (and rightly so), couldn't it be argued that a well-educated populace would be one that can be used to "form a more perfect union" and to "promote the general welfare" of the country (to quote the preamble)?
Note: the same argument can be made in favor of wider access to health care, which also isn't mentioned in the constitution.
In other words: allowing the federal government to do anything not explictly stated in the constitution will lead to another holocaust, because Germans.
He scraped so close to a Godwin there he's oozing blood. That must be how he's lubricating that slippery slope.
Just for the record, I think constitutionality is important, and I didn't submit this one on the idea that opposition to student loans is fundie. His argument about the Tenth Amendment sounds reasonable, although I can't say for sure whether it's valid as I have no substantial experience with constitutional law.
What's insane about this is that he brings up the Holocaust when arguing about student loans . That's about as ridiculous as an argument can get.
@John in Oz:
Mentioning the Holocaust with an implicit comparison to what your opponent is saying counts as a Godwin in my book.
Of course adherence to the Constitution is generally to be praised. But Bartlett (as a West Wing fan, I find it distasteful that a lunatic has that name, but that's neither here nor there) seems to think that the Constitution is the only thing preventing the American government from perpetrating its own holocaust. He says that "if you can ignore the Constitution to do something good today, tomorrow you will be ignoring the Constitution to do something bad," but our own moral decency would prevent that. The idea that the Constitution is the only conceivable source of morality for our government is ridiculous, and right in line with Christian fundies who say the same thing about the Bible.
What? WTF did I just read?
Is this yahoo claiming student loans are unconstitutional and could be the first step toward a holocaust?
You do know that a proper education is probably the best defense against extremist views of all types?
Oh wait, that's right, that's WHY all fundies are afraid of a proper education.
'how in the heck could that happen?' - multiple factors when combined produced Godwin's favorite subject. The Weimar Republic, and so on. But then, the US had it's Great Depression and did not go that route, possibly due to having FDR instead of a fundamentalist as the country's leader. I would argue that it is more due to WHO you elect as the country's leaders. Fundamentalists tend to cherrypick what is in the Constitution, where nonfundamentalists will bend the Constitution for the sake of society.
@Wehpudicabok: "His argument about the Tenth Amendment sounds reasonable"
But on that basis, so would an objection to buying pencils for Federal employees or providing electricity and telephone service to the White House, neither of which are specifically "delegated to the United States by the Constitution"; and therefore, in theory, "reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
Student loans + German-Americans = the Holocaust. I don't know, I'm German-American, and Finnish-American (semi-official WWII German allies), and I feel no desire to start another Holocaust or kill Russians. Is it because I have blood of the inferior Polish race in me?
What would you expect, he's a Republican politician in the 21st century, they have nothing rational or logical to say.
@ John,
The first sentence of the Constitution is a statement of purpose, and not an empowering sentence. No, the Congress does not have the power to pass laws to spend money on almost anything the representatives believe is good for the country. If you disagree, you must change the Constitution.
"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."
Constitutions are a protection against tyrannical Government abuses. Those of you who suggest disregarding a Constitution are proposing that you wilfully give up a legal protection, and merely rely on the morality of politicians. Are you crazy?
I repeat, this is not a Godwin. I've just re-read the Wikipedia article on Godwin's Law. It's too long to cite in full, but this quote clearly does not break that law.
@ The Anonymous
"What would you expect, he's a Republican politician in the 21st century, they have nothing rational or logical to say."
Exactly. The Republican Party today has become the definition of the statement "reductio ad absurdum" itself. Latin: "reduction to absurdity." Just look at what they support, alone.
The argument against school loans, scholarships and grants has only one purpose: To reserve higher education for the rich. It's so blatantly obvious that I'm surprized there's been no kickback against the agenda.
Even in Canada there's been several benefits allowed to the wealthy only to get their children into colleges, by raising school rates and allowing the rich to write off those expenses. If you have to pay you own way, no financial assistance or benefits, if your rich parents pay your way, tax write offs and other insentives. It's the higher education version of no tax on yachts.
The Republicans down there are getting real transparent about their rich folk worship:
The Holocaust happened in Europe, not only in Germany.
We are sadly on a slippery slope with regards to education here in Sweden. Our government is doing its best to completely destroy the public school that put us in top five of education level in the world a few years ago. Now we're slightly below average, and have segregated schools, some with a high percentage of kids with rich and/or educated parents, some with a high percentage of kids with parents born outside of Europe, who are struggling to integrate in the new country and learn a new language. Guess which kind usually attracts the best teachers...
Our government is busy making us into Little America. One gets tempted to say "if you love America so much, why don't you move there, and let us keep the social-democratic country we have worked hard for 70 years to create?".
@john in oz: "The first sentence of the Constitution is a statement of purpose, and not an empowering sentence."
The "general welfare clause", as it's commonly called, is repeated in the first sentence of Article 1, Section 8.
There is an ongoing debate among the lunatic-fringe far right and the rest of the country on the interpretation of what's called the "general welfare clause". But without it, we're back to forbidding the Federal government from buying pencils or paying their phone bills. Unless it were upheld, no one in their right mind would do business with the Federal government outside the narrow 18th century enumerated list in the rest of Section 8 - it would be like giving a credit card to a minor who could renounce the debt under law.
Well, look on the bright side: Bartlett will lose for 3 reasons.
1: This idiotic statement.
2: The Maryland legislature redrew Maryland's congressional districts to be more competitive. With a competitive district in a blue state, Bartlett was seen by many election trackers to lose even BEFORE he said this.
3: The dude's 86. That alone wouldn't hurt, but combine his age with this statement, and one could argue he's getting senile.
"The Holocaust that occurred in Germany how in the heck could that happen?"
Ignorant people believed the lies of right wingers, that's how.
@ Swede
Your country better nip it in the bud while they have a chance....before it gets too big to take down!
I say the same to Canadians.
We, sane Progressive people in the United States waited, sat on our butts, got apathetic & complacent...and look where we are now!
LESSON OF THE DAY: Be diligent, never rest on your laurels! Regressives never go down without a fight & they'll do EVERYTHING they can to turn back the clock! ALWAYS!
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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