Why do liberals cite Exo 20:13 "thou shalt not kill" saying that we should not have things like the death penalty while at the same time they support the murder of children through abortion?
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The word in Exodus translates as "murder." Murder is by definition the illegal taking of a human life. Which makes execution and abortion both not murder, pretty much. As far as the bible, which fundamentalists are going by, it doesn't specifically prohibit abortion but the evidence against it is pretty strong. Whereas with execution, Romans is pretty clear that the government does (or should) have the power to execute people who commit heinous crimes. Such as taking an innocent life. Biblically speaking, being anti-abortion and pro-death-penalty are not hypocritical. Of course there are many other hypocrisies, that just isn't one of them.
Thank you, Skeptical. I'm pretty tired of having to defend my pro-life/ pro-capital punishment stances and being treated like a hypocrite simply because fundies agree with me in the strictest sense of the word.
Depending on how you define "abortion," and depending on how soon you perform said act, it's possible that you could be eliminating a blastocyst or a very young embryo, which is in essence not much different from a blastocyst.
@ TheMissus,and capital punishment are both murder. However, I can respect you and respect your views, but Randy here seems to think that one's political views define who one is as a person. This is entirely not true. I am a Socialist as well as what most would call a liberal, and I really don't much care for the types who accuse me of "supporting the murder of children." Randy, you need to paint with a broader brush!
20:13 gets cited, Randy, because that's the same verse you use to justify your anti-abortion stance. And as pointed out, the word is "murder" and not kill - abortion is not murder, not in a legal sense, and not even in a medical sense because it is the "intentional taking of a human life" - and blastocytes are usually not considered "human life" except specifically by you fundies. On the other hand, the death penalty could very well be considered "murder" because that IS the "intentional taking of a human life." You either have to wiggle your way out of that by saying either a) the government can commit murder legally, or b) criminals aren't human. Take your pick.
Preventing someone from being born, murdering someone, and executing a condemned prisoner are three different things.
Why do neo-cons cite Exodus 20:13 "thou shalt not kill" saying that we should not have things like abortion and euthanasia of braindead patients on life support, while at the same time they support the killing of children through war, the torture of prisoners in Guantánamo, and the execution of murderers?
Jezebel, women die from legal abortion too. In fact, the year after Roe v Wade was passed, the number of deaths caused by abortion went up. Possibly because there were more performed. All surgery carries risks, and one of those risks is death. I'm not using this as an anti-abortion argument, just saying there have always been serious risks.
Why doesn't the Bro read a few verses down to Exo. 21:22: If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. husband for the loss of the baby- just as you would if you killed one of his sheep.
In any event, is the Bro suggesting that the right to abortion means he doesn't have to obey Exo 20:13 with regard to the death penaly either?
Citing that particular commandment in the form "thou shalt not kill" is so vague as to be utterly useless.
Probably because the bible also supports the death penalty; both old and new testaments. The bible makes a distinction between taking an innocent life (God hates the shedding of innocent blood) and a government taking the life of someone who is guilty of a heinous crime. It's not really hard to grasp.
I wish I could give you rep points, Skeptical. As much as the legal definitions of murder, execution, and abortion may seem like semantics it goes much deeper than simple dictionary terms.
Agreed, it does go deeper than dictionary terms. In the strictest technical sense, neither can be called murder. In a moral sense, regarding justice, opinions differ. The fundamentalists and most other anti-abortion people believe that killing an innocent fetus is unjust (and thus morally murder) whereas killing someone after a fair trial in which they have been convicted of a heinous crime is just, and thus not murder. I agree with you that there is nothing hypocritical about it.
Can a human embryo really be considered a full person, given that a) sentience has not yet developed and b) survival outside the womb before about the 8-month stage generally requires extraordinary medical intervention?
That's hard to say, I think. Obviously the Christian anti-abortion people do believe it is human. Full person? That's a sketchy term. I mean was Terri Schiavo a full person? Are people who can not survive without medical intervention or who are profoundly retarded full persons? Where is the line drawn? Are infants even full persons when they can't possibly survive on their own? I can't really say. Many times the pro-life crowd point out that by the time a woman has an abortion, the embryo's heart is already beating. It has its own blood type, own DNA, may be a different sex from the mother...they would say that even though dependent it is still distinct, that fetal development is a spectrum and that it is viable for its intended environment (the womb.) I don't see the argument against something like the morning after pill, though. That merely prevents a pregnancy from occurring.
My official stance on abortion is that I don't give a fuck. I'm a guy, and so the whole abortion thing really does not apply to me, regardless of what I think of it. I'm more than happy to leave that one for the ladies to sort out while I contemplate more pressing issues, like what game I feel like playing, or what the hell was in that case in Pulp Fiction (my money's on big ol' bricks of gold).
the funny thing is what "thou shalt not kill" really mean was "thou shalt not kill a fellow jew", read the rest of the old testement, its like the holocaust, only bigger and less gas-emitting showerheads
children are not killed.
Skeptical: "Jezebel, women die from legal abortion too. .. All surgery carries risks ..."
My problem with the argument that, regardless of the stage of development, an egg cell will eventually become a human: when you start getting into things that haven't happened yet, a level of uncertainty becomes inevitable. Killing someone in a war could potentially mean killing off an entire line of future human beings, but nobody thinks about it like that: all you did was kill one man, and you're punished accordingly.
@Randy: I quote that verse at christians that advocate killing, because they are the ones that are supposed to follow it, not me. I do think that in some exceptional circumstances killing someone is the right thing to do.
Because you shalt not kill doesn´t include respect for animals either and because the same book takes non-born children and even children up to 12 as chattel. Does it answer your question?, if you were more consistent with your beliefs and defended life with all its consequences, they would give you credit. Life is sacred always, not only before conception.
The bible is OBVIOUSLY pro death penalty. I mean the most commonly fucking painted thing out of the god damn bible is a death sentence being carried out. Jesus christ read your dam bibles.
ps- just think of any abortions anybody may have as them giving their first born to the lord as they do their grain and cattle or whatever. Or maybe you could just burn aborted fetuses on an alter- that'll make it hunky dory yes?
Wads of cells aren't children. Contrary to your beliefs, life does NOT begin at conception.
Also, you can't be pro-war or pro-deathpenalty if you're pro-life. It's saying you're pro-KKK, but you're also pro-black. It just doesn't work.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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