Self-Mutation #fundie

Self-Mutation #fundie freeratio.org

[Discussing God and the problem of evil.]

In an atheistic world, it would not matter if we went around killing each other because the species would still exist just fine!

To see how this is true, just observe other species who kill members of their own.

You are essentially arguing that humans are special, which is a theistic argument, which means the problem of evil is refuted.

[...]

We do not live in an atheistic world. We live in a theistic world.

If we lived in an atheistic world, you would see us running around in anarchy.

The mere fact that we have order and laws means that the theists automatically start out with a +1 in the debate.

[...]

This is a very tired argument.

It is my belief that the atheists do not kill or rape "just in case" God is real. They want to have some kind of leg to stand on if the judgement day occurs.

48 comments

old comment by gravematter

"To see how this is true, just observe other species who kill members of their own."
Have you actually read the Bible? There really are a whole lot of God-approved killings in there.
"The mere fact that we have order and laws means that the theists automatically start out with a +1 in the debate."
Lots of species live in societies that have order and laws. They're not as sophisticated as ours, but it certainly implies that order and laws came before the concept of God.
"It is my belief that the atheists do not kill or rape "just in case" God is real. They want to have some kind of leg to stand on if the judgement day occurs."
Have you ever considered that most people don't rape and murder because they don't want to be raped and murdered themselves? Or even, gasp, that they have a basic sense of empathy? Morality really doesn't require God, and if the only check on your behaviour is the idea that God is watching you, then you might need some psychiatric help.

old comment by UHM

This argument would only hold true if mindless animals would not be able to organize through thousands of years of process. Thing is, they do. Termintes built towers, swarms fly and swim together in meticulous formations, numerous animals (like apes) build territories and packs which one of them rules (sound familiar?).
The fact is, organization helps a species survive, so not only do we need houses and farms - but we also need ethics to regulate how we behave in a society. These ethics are ever changing - if you had the slightest interest in other cultures and cultures prior to you own, you'd know that - and you simply don't like that change. What will happen is simple, your kind will die out, our's will survive and thrive. See you, fosile.

old comment by farpadokly

To say that humans are special isn't necessarily theistic.
"If we lived in an atheistic world, you would see us running around in anarchy". Explain, then, non-theistic tribes who live organized social lives and don't "run around in anarchy".
Explain also the plethora of wars and conflicts started and maintained by theistic societies.
Law is secular in the West, and subject to revision. If we upheld the Biblical law, there would be a huge outcry as it simply does not fit the values of modern people.
"atheists do not kill or rape "just in case" God is real". People don't kill or rape because 1, Killing and raping is wrong. We don't need a deity to tell us this. We can realize it just by asking ourselves these questions: "Would I like to be killed or raped? Would I like it if my loved ones were killed or raped?".
2, Even if they wanted to, they might refrain from doing so because of punishment by secular laws, police forces and prisons.
Morality is not God and does not depend on God. Law is not God and does not depend on God.
Lastly, please see Death Row statistics for how many people executed, often for murder and rape, are theists.

old comment by Sharon Young

I've definitely said this here before:
God cannot exist without morality.
Morality can exist without God.

... and is the fear of divine punishment what keeps OP from killing or raping? If so, I for one would prefer OP to continue believing in whatever God you will.

However, it is perhaps the maintenance of social order, or even the universal regard for the sanctity of human life, that keeps one from killing.

Sadly, anarchy cannot be directly equated to Insta-Chaos®; the burden of order and discipline of society does not come from a higher power or an overarching body, it is shifted to the individual as her obligation to the collective.

The mere fact that we have order and laws simply means that our society has formed a social contract with us the individuals as an obligation to it, or perhaps to God; obedience to God, in a positive way, can help even when the laws don't. There's always the flipside which can't be disregarded either. But obedience to God is not the only obedience, although I won't doubt that to some, it can be one.

It's a really tired argument, that I'll have to agree with no shred of doubt.

It's my belief that we have our own reasons for why we don't kill or rape: higher powers, deterrence, obligations to maintain social order, individual-society agreements, universal beliefs. Just don't kill or rape, even if that emphasizes what over why.

old comment by

i dont know about other atheists, but i dont kill and rape because i have no desire to be the source of indescribable fear and terror to another sentient being. i dont murder and rape because having friends helps prevent you from being murdered or raped. i dont murder and rape because i personally feel that it is wrong, and a destructive practice that hurts all of society.

the only argument that is tiring is yours, that atheists are inherently evil/immoral for lack of god. however, it is becoming increasingly obvious that you would be out raping and pillaging every day if you thought god wasnt around rattling his hellfire and brimstone saber at you, so i hope you never give up your beliefs.

old comment by michael3ov

"The mere fact that we have order and laws "

Yes, secular laws.

Maybe you entirely missed all of the genocide, killing, pillaging, and war in the name of god.

Your religious morality is based on the bible. One of the most immoral books in human history. A book that condones slavery, lays the blame for rape on woman, condones and commands genocide, teaches people that they are born diseased, prescribes death for apostasy, working on a particular day, and disrespecting your parents.

Since Christians are no longer following these rules it is very apparent that your religious morality has in the past and continues to adapt itself to secular morality.

Religious people have killed eachother throughout history. There is no need to believe in sky fairies to develop and have ethics. If the only thing preventing you to harm and murder people is the belief in a supernatural being spying on you that might punish you, there's likely a problem with you, like psychopathy. Most people have some level of empathy, even other animals do, it has benefited the survival of groups during their evolution. The fact that there's no evidence of divine punishment is another issue with the argument.

Self-Mutation #fundie freeratio.org

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