I heard an interesting analogy once...
Let's say you are in a movie theater watching a movie with a few hundred people and an armed felon stands up threatening to kill everyone in the theater. Before he begins the executions, a father walks up to the felon with his only son and makes a deal. He asks the felon to take and kill his only son in place of all the people in the theater. The felon agrees. Many grateful people rush toward the door of freedom. However, a few of the people in the theater come forward to tell the father that his deal is unfair. They would like him to provide another way of getting out of the theater alive.
That's it. I found it helpful when discussing the fairness of salvation.
44 comments
"He asks the felon to take and kill his only son in place of all the people in the theater. The felon agrees."
And the felon would agree to this why exactly? Perhaps you meant "mentally deranged psychotic" rather than felon.
"However, a few of the people in the theater come forward to tell the father that his deal is unfair."
More likely they would be scratching their heads at the blatant insanity of it. If the father is so keen on a substitutionary sacrifice the only moral thing to do would be to offer himself rather than his son.
OK, G-d Seeker, try this one:
Let's say you are in a movie theater watching a movie with a few hundred people. A man stands up and yells out that there is an armed felon in the corner threatening to kill everyone in the theater. You look in the corner, but no one is there. The man then yells that the felon had his own son killed, and will kill you, too, if you don't believe in him. About then the police burst in and drag away the interruptor. You go back to watching the movie.
(Sorry Alejandro)
"I heard an interesting analogy once..."
Just once? You should try to listen more.
"Let's say you are in a movie theater watching a movie with a few hundred people and an armed felon stands up threatening to kill everyone in the theater. Before he begins the executions, a father walks up to the felon with his only son and makes a deal. He asks the felon to take and kill his only son in place of all the people in the theater. The felon agrees. Many grateful people rush toward the door of freedom. However, a few of the people in the theater come forward to tell the father that his deal is unfair."
It IS unfair. The son got a truly raw deal. Plus, you make no mention of the criminal being punished.
"They would like him to provide another way of getting out of the theater alive."
No, they would like to find a way out of the theater that doesn't involve killing the innocent.
"That's it. I found it helpful when discussing the fairness of salvation."
No, that is not it. In your analogy the father is not omnipotent. God, being omnipotent, should have been able to find a way out of the sin and damnation he allowed that didn't involve killing the innocent.
Remember what is says in the babble:
Book of God 3:16 from the BFD translation says "For I so loved the world that I gave my only begotten self, to myself, to appease my own anger at my own creation, that whosoever believeth in me should not escape me, but be forced to live with me forever."
Should be nominated for "least helpful analogy"
He also forgot to relate that the father in the theater provided the ammo to the felon, that the father was also the son and could not be killed (for long anyways). Oh, and the felon is allowed to kill all those who remain in the theater, with the father's blessing.
How about this one: An armed fellon stands up in the middle of a crowded theater and threaten's to kill everyone. So everyone jumps him. The fellon, though armed, is grossly outnumbered and quickly subdued. They beat the crap out of him and go back to their movie.
300 people? What kind of gun does this felon have? He can't kill everyone, he'd run out of ammo, at which time other movie goers would beat him down, possibly killing him.
People you love
Will turn their backs on you
You'll lose your hair
Your teeth
Your knife will fall out of its sheath
But you still don't like to leave before the end of the movie
People you hate will get their hooks into you
They'll pull you down
You'll frown
They'll tar you and drag you through town
But you still don't like to leave before the end of the movie
No you still don't like to leave before the end of the show
-Cake, "End of the Movie"
Kinda eerie.
Anology neither helful or interesting. How can so many people be sooooo fucked up? I know, it's that flouride in the water, yeah, that's the ticket.
@Huffers
God is a psycho killer?
This shouldn't come as suprise to anyone who has opened OT
@Jax
300 people? What kind of gun does this felon have?
BFG-9000, I would suppose.
What sort of father sacrifices his son in a talked deal? The grateful people run off? They are most likely thinking 'lunatic. its your problem now mate'
what about the people who try to tackle the sycho (the armed one) to the ground while hes talking with the brave man putting his son on the line?
that the 'heoric' thing to do, putting your OWN life at risk, not some kids
@TDR
you found it helpful? Are you simple or something?
TDR wins.
Too bad G-d Seeker left out the part where the father knew felon for years and years, was the one who got the felon to pull this stunt in the first place and had raised his son specifically to have him killed like this.
@Aesmael
Too bad G-d Seeker left out the part where the father knew felon for years and years, was the one who got the felon to pull this stunt in the first place and had raised his son specifically to have him killed like this.
Don't forget that the father used to employ the felon.
A more fitting analogy would be if someone stood up in the middle of the movie and told everyone an invisible felon was there and threatening to kill everyone, but an equally invisible father was ready to selflessly sacrifice his similarly invisible son. IF and ONLY IF you give the aforementioned person all your money!
And then the rest of us who aren't chickenshits rush said armed felon and stomp him to death. Seriously, WTF? How can you think those are the only two solutions? A few HUNDRED people versus one moron with a gun. But you're sheeple and would stand there baa-ing until you die. Well, we'd be better off in the end after that.
This makes me think of Stephen King's The Mist, when they are captives in the supermarket and some fundie woman starts bleating that it is a punishment from god and lets kill that boy, then god will forgive us and take the monsters away.
Let's say you are in a movie theater watching a movie with a few hundred people and an armed felon stands up threatening to kill everyone in the theater. Before he begins the executions, a father walks up to the felon with his only son and makes a deal. He asks the felon to take and kill his only son in place of all the people in the theater. The felon agrees. Many grateful people rush toward the door of freedom. However, a few of the people in the theater come forward to tell the father that his deal is unfair. They would like him to provide another way of getting out of the theater alive. However, the father then decides who will be saved and who will die. Those who don't suck up to him or don't do it correctly will be left with the theater murderer to be killed.
A more accurate description.
Except if this is going to be an analogy for the Christian salvation myth, the felon, father and son are all the same person, who incidentally also owns and operates the cinema.
In other words God is a schizophrenic psychotic pointing as gun at his own head and shouting incoherently at a crowd of bemused movie-goers, some of whom in their confusion actually do what he tells them.
The movie was the premiere of Die Hard 6 and Bruce Willis was in the house. He takes care of the felon, and then the father, because both of them are assholes who deserve the Willis treatment.
The movie will resume as soon as the mess is cleared up.
Seriously, though, only a fundie would find that "analogy" useful, moral, or even plausible. Personally, I think it's a crock of shit some fool made up to try and soumd clever, in which case they failed dismally.
Ok, I may not be a father (though that would be nice in about ten-ish years), even I know that is a shitty deal. A parent who really loves their child would sacrifice THEMSELF so that their child (and in this case, a few hundred people) could live.
Reminds me of something in my english book:
"A noted one, who kept a tavern at Amboy, was standing at his door, with as pretty a child in his hand, about eight or nine years old, as I ever saw, and after speaking his mind as freely as he thought was prudent, finished with this unfatherly expression, "Well! Give me peace in my day!" Not a man lives on the continent but fully belives that a seperation must sometime or other finally take place, and a generous parent should have said,"If there must be trouble let it be in my day, that my child may have peace"; and this single reflection, well applied, is sufficient to awaken every man to duty."
"Many grateful people rush toward the door of freedom."
And what should we think of these people who cravenly would let a child die in their place to save their own sorry asses?
Are they heroes? Are they the smartest? Most moral? Kindest? Gentlest? Most selfless even?
I don't think so, but they are certainly the most Christian.
OK, coward father offers up the son ? what did the son think of that ?
Did the father raise the son from the dead afterwards cause that makes it a parlor trick. See God rise from the dead every sunday at 9, 12 , 3 , and 7 oclock !
Did the father indicate that all who were saved are now the sons property and must worship him unconditionally for eternity ?
So...who's the felon in Christianity? Because to me, it strikes me that the one threatening grievous harm to the allegorical theater full of people is the same one offering the sacrifice. Further, dad seems like a real big man there. Quick to offer his son's life, to save his own. Yeah, real big man...
Really?
The father who offered up his son is the God analogy in this. Really?
You find THIS helpful HOW?
The father (or mother, uncle or sibling) would rise to risk their lives to save that child IN REAL LIFE, not offer them up, deal the childs life away!
What the fuck genetic short-circuit have you fundies produced? You all go on about the innocent, the pure and the God-blessed but you're all willing to throw them under the first bus that comes along.
To use your salvation base, Jesus died to free all of us from our sins: What changed after he died on the cross? NOTHING! Sinning not only began immediately therafter but to you shits newborns were still sinful. Please take at least one trip on the logic train before you post again
He's going to be pissed when he realizes the father hired the gunman to go in there, gave him the weapon and ammo, paid for his ticket, and then had a flamethrower he could have used on the gunman so that no one had to die.
Except you later find out that the father was a trained sniper in the military and knew this felon was on a most wanted list and the government then made the father in charge of the case, but he never did anything about it, even knowing that this event would happen, and did nothing before so he could start a cult.
No, the ‘father’ would be the manager of the cinema. Who wants to offer his child to the ‘felon,’ to save the lives of those viewers who paid in cash.
Not those who paid with debit or credit card, or anyone attending with a ticket someone else bought.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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