Jay #fundie

Jay #fundie patheos.com

To say that atheism is a lack of belief in God and thereby excuses the atheist from showing atheism to be true with facts and sound reasons is a fantasy. That would be like me claiming Mexico doesn't exist. I can do what the atheist does and just dismiss all evidence for it out of hand.

Have you ever studied the gospels with an open mind? The life of Christ is the best evidence for the existence of God and they tell us what this God is like. Billions of people over the centuries have been convinced by them that God does indeed exist. Many of these people are some of the smartest people who have ever lived have come to believe in them.

31 comments

old comment by Doubting Thomas

thereby excuses the atheist from showing atheism to be true with facts and sound reasons is a fantasy.

Bitch and moan all you want, you still have the burden of proof to show that your religion is true. You have no evidence that all those stories in your ancient book of fairy tales ever happened.

The life of Christ is the best evidence for the existence of God

So in other words, your religion is true because your religion is true.

Billions of people over the centuries have been convinced by them that God does indeed exist.

Argument from numbers. Billions of people over the centuries also believed that the earth was flat.

Many of these people are some of the smartest people who have ever lived have come to believe in them.

Argument from authority. The vast majority of scientists, who we can agree must be very intelligent people, are atheists.

old comment by dionysus

I've been to Mexico. Despite praying to Jesus for 20 years, denying science, and having faith I have yet to see or sense him in any way.

Have you ever studied the gospels with an open mind?

I'll do you one better. I studied the gospels wanting to believe them. To be honest, I was surprised with what I found. How much people added to the stories, how the stories didn't say what I was told they said, how the most atrocious and ridiculous parts of it were completely ignored by the church and most Christians, and how silly and brutal the Old Testament was. Learning about ancient religions didn't help much either. I noticed how similar both Judaism and Christianity were to other ancient religions. Then reading it again after learning more history I noticed that the Bible transitions from a polytheistic system to a monotheistic system. God actually talks to other gods in Genesis up until the Tower of Babel and says "we", then he suddenly stops doing that. He competes with other gods in Exodus (even mentioning "all the gods of Egypt"), prohibits the worship of other gods, and says he is jealous (which makes no sense unless there are others to be jealous of). He says "Thou shalt not revile the gods.", "For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords.", and "God standeth in the congregation of the mighty, he judgeth among the gods." which make no sense if there are no other gods.

The life of Christ is the best evidence for the existence of God and they tell us what this God is like.

If the best evidence for God is the description of his life in one book I think I'm pretty justified being skeptical. What about non-Christian accounts of his life? What about accounts from contemporary historians? Surely SOMEONE noticed the dead getting out of their graves: "At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs after Jesus' resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people." Matthew 27:51. Nobody thought that was noteworthy?

Billions of people over the centuries have been convinced by them that God does indeed exist.

Yes, and billions also believe in ghosts, psychics, aliens, good luck charms, and "being due for a good roll" at casinos. Unfortunately, the traits that helped humans survive have made us extremely prone to superstition.

Many of these people are some of the smartest people who have ever lived have come to believe in them.

Einstein believed in a steady state universe. Even invented a constant to make it so. This is precisely why we have the scientific process. It doesn't matter how brilliant you are, it only matters that you can demonstrate what you claim. That's why we still teach Relativity but don't teach steady state except as a cautionary tale about how even the best make blunders.

old comment by Nomen Nescio

if the evidence for god was anywhere near on par with the evidence for Mexico, they'd be selling spring break trips to heaven at my local travel agency.

and no, it's not on me to "study the gospels" with any kind of mind, open or otherwise. i examined the evidence for Mexico because i had a personal interest in knowing something about the world (okay, i wanted to pass high school geography); i've seen no similar reason to spend that amount of effort on any religion. you're the one who seems to have some reason to want me to believe that stuff, not me. hence, it's on YOU to produce the evidence; if i ever get some actual reason of my own to go looking for it then i will, otherwise i'll spend my time on more useful stuff. like scratching my balls.

what's that, you say? your GOD wants me to believe in him? well, my pub challenge still stands. your god should know where i live and when i have the time; there's a brewpub in walking distance of my house; let him knock on my door when i've a few hours to spare, i'll walk him down there and we can discuss evidence over a few pints like reasonable adults. if he convinces me, i'll even pay his tab.

old comment by OHP

++"The life of Christ is the best evidence for the existence of God "

The existence of a sequel does not prove that the original story is a true one. There are several Star Wars movies but that doesn't mean that there was every really a Darth Vader.

++"Billions of people over the centuries have been convinced by them that God does indeed exist."

Billions of people over the centuries were convinced that our world is flat, at the center of the universe, surrounded by a glass/crystal sphere, held on the back of a giant turtle and all kinds of other stupid shit. Reaching a certain threshold of people gullible/scared enough to fall for a lie does not make it true.

++"Many of these people are some of the smartest people who have ever lived have come to believe in them. "

And? Intelligence of individual believers is as meaningless as total number of believers. Wrong is wrong regardless of how many people are wrong in the same manner.

old comment by John

That would be like me claiming Mexico doesn't exist. I can do what the atheist does and just dismiss all evidence for it out of hand.

Except you don't have any evidence, except for a 100th-hand edited copy of a book written 3,500 years ago by some anonymous Bronze Age Arabs. Atheists don't dismiss all evidence. They ask for evidence and have been waiting for 2,500 years for an answer.

Billions of people over the centuries have been convinced by them that God does indeed exist.

Billions of people are still convinced that germs don't cause disease, that rhino horns can cure impotence and that the earth is flat. Reality isn't determined by a vote.

Have you ever studied the gospels with an open mind?

Sure. You're the one who hasn't done that. You start from the unchallengeable assumption that they're actually true, when there's much evidence to the contrary, such as the fact that they were written long after Jesus was dead, by people who likely never even met Jesus.

old comment by Goomy pls

Claiming Mexico doesn't exist is the equivalent of "hard" atheism; not believing it exists is the equivalent of "soft" atheism, but it would be a false analogy anyway as it is not obvious that there is a deity, let alone the Christian one.

I had an open mind when I read the BuyBull's stories for the first time, as a small kid. In fact, it was so open that I weighed the book's claims with my understanding of science at the time, and I still had several doubts.

Of course, since I'm Jewish, you wouldn't count that, as our religion ENCOURAGES asking questions about its scriptural antecedents. In fact, Jewish philosophy is essentially a barrage of question-asking, weighing different options, creativity, and recognition that it's not just black-and-white. It is hard to find a moral issue for which there aren't heavily conflicting opinions among top Jewish philosophers!

My old uncle's rabbi once said he himself has doubts about the biblical stories, and my own former rabbi constantly posed tough moral questions and weighed in with heavily unorthodox opinions.

Of course, to types like Jay here, such acts would constitute high heresy. So much for that "open mind."

old comment by Swede

There is no evidence for any gods, goddesses or other deities, stupid. Atheism is a lack of belief in all of them. You can't show a lack of something to be true as it doesn't exist.
See, the way you feel about all other gods besides your one, is the way we also feel about your one.

Have you ever studied Das Kapital with an open mind?

There is no solid evidence that Jesus ever existed, so if that is your best evidence for the existence of your particular god, then you're fucked.

Billions of people over the centuries have been convinced that Allah does indeed exist, and they also have some of the smartest people who have ever lived on their side.

old comment by CuriousAndMoreCurious

Yes I have studied the gospels with an open mind. Of couse, for me an open mind means that I don't start with any preconceived notions at all. I have also studied the old testament, the Islamic teachings, Hindu, shinto, Buddhist, Wiccan and even Scientology teachings. Here is the common denominator; they ALL claim to knowledge without any kind of proof. Do you know the difference between that and science? Science makes the claim, and then shows the evidence that was gathered to support that claim.
Saying that Mexico exists is the claim. The existence of other countries existing would be proof that countries such as one called Mexico could exist. The nemourous people who came from there is proof. Many pictures and movies taken could be seen as proof. The time I went there at 17 and brought back several mementos (and got drunk on cheap tequila that my parents didn't know about). All of these things, yes, could be faked. There could be a world wide conspiracy to make you think that Mexico exists. Nothing could be 100% proven, but enough evidence exists to say it is likely enough to be real.

Jay #fundie patheos.com

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