evilelvi1, I think you just agreed with really my main point from the beginning... that atheism is a belief system in something that is equally far-fetched as belief in God. To a lot of atheists, it is not a belief system. They have simply discarded God and believe in evolution because they have to. (Without God, evolution MUST be true. How else can the world be explained?)
I don't know everything, and the dinosaur thing is a good example of something I can't explain. Sometimes I wonder why the God I believe in would put us in a world where there are alternative equally-viable theories to our existence. But then it hit me one day that without them, we couldn't truly have free will. If scientific method led us to God and nothing else, well there would be no faith, no free will. We would pretty much HAVE to believe in God. At that point it is no longer belief, but proof.
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Funny thing is, he comes so close to logic... so very close.
So... you're saying God created an old looking Earth, complete with dinosaur bones to make it merely look like evolution happened?
That would make God a liar.
...atheism is a belief system in something that is equally far-fetched as belief in God.
They have simply discarded God and believe in evolution
Without God, evolution MUST be true.
But then it hit me one day that without them, we couldn't truly have free will.
stupid nonfunctional editing function.
Not cool cat, cool cats! Can't even spell my own handle. Fundies made my brain go asplody.
Proof, shmoof. Hell, there isn't one single shred of evidence that God exists. Just show us anything that is incontrovertible as to the existence of God, and we'll think about listening to what you have to say.
They have simply discarded God and believe in evolution because they have to. (Without God, evolution MUST be true. How else can the world be explained?)
Okay, let's assume for the moment that the second part of that is true (even though it isn't).
You still on one hand say "Without God, evolution MUST be true." which is NOT G IMPLIES E, to back up the proposition "You have to abandon God to believe in evolution": E IMPLIES NOT G
NOT G IMPLIES E
I get it now! God loves to screw with our heads!
...wait, we already knew that since, well, Genesis.
... In your claim that atheism is far-fetched, by your standards, and is *as far-fetched as belief in a deity*
Way to go... now just connect the dots....
Not a single Christian has EVER been able to explain to me why they believe that God wants us to believe only through faith, and not through evidence or proof.
These are the same ones, ironically, that claim that everything is proof of God - creation, the prophets, Jesus, etc.
I disagree with DFox. It starts off badly. "Atheism... ...is equally far-fetched as belief in God." That's pretty sad already. He's saying, "Yeah, I know I look like a moron for believing there's a big scary man in the sky, but you look equally moronic for not believing." It doesn't come close to logic.
"To a lot of atheists, it is not a belief system." That's pretty accurate, and leads to a hope that TruthBKnown will remedy his cranial/rectal interface. However, "They... believe in evolution because they have to." No we don't. We don't have to believe in anything. And it goes downhill from there.
"If scientific method led us to God and nothing else, well there would be no faith, no free will."
Can someone explain to me why this is a bad thing? It's like saying if doctors knew the cure for cancer, we'd have no free will. We'd be forced to believe cancer is curable, and oh HOW DREADFUL!
"Proof" isn't a dirty word, TBK, and blind, unquestioning faith only makes you guillible, not virtuous.
If God showed His/Her/Itself (and hopefully clarified a few subjects) people would still be free to choose to follow him or not, the only difference would be that they'd be able to make an informed choice, instead of relying on dubious (to say the least), fifth hand information. The only ones for whom it would be a real problem would be the cult leaders who would no longer be able to put their words in His mouth. Of course, if He proved himself to be one tenth the insecure, egomaniacal old cunt that the Babble portrays the flood of worshippers leaving the church would be biblical in proportions. (pun intended)
My pet theory as to why Gawd doesn't reveal himself if he exists is that he is simply afraid of getting sued blind for his shoddy workmanship, not to mention all the atrocities he allowed to be committed in his name without so much as a word to dissociate Himself from them.
Moses saw God, Jesus was seen when he lived, the people he cured in public were seen and all the tribes of Israel heard God speak at the mountain. Why would it suddenly be a bad thing to actually know God exists? Having faith or not having faith isn't the apex of free will. You can chose to worship or not after God has proven himself to exist. That would be the ultimate example of God given free will (but only if he abolishes hell). If choosing to believe in something based on a 2000 year old contradicting and badly translated book is free will and having all the facts negates free will then you do not have free will because you can't not acknowledge the force of gravity (I dare all people who don't believe in the force of gravity to try jumping of a sky scraper) and many other (semi)constants concerning the world around you.
Or as someone once said:
You are free to have your beliefs but not to have your own facts.
Even the Bible disagrees with you:
Romans 1:20: For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Oh, and Frankie has something to say to you:
http://www.heterodoxy.com/misc/frankie.jpg
"If scientific method led us to God and nothing else, well there would be no faith, no free will. "
So you're saying god is a liar? And that the scientific evidence actually does support evolution?
No, we think that evolutionary theory is the best model currently available to explain the diversity of life on earth because it explains the evidence you can't explain, like dinosaurs. So you are left coming to the conclusion that your omnibenevolent God is planting false evidence to trick rational people into eternal damnation. WTF?
I'd believe if God came down, slapped me in the face, and said "I'm real, Dammit! Now make me some coffee."
"They have simply discarded God and believe in evolution because they have to. (Without God, evolution MUST be true. How else can the world be explained?)"
The problem with this statement is that it ignores all the religions that have accepted evolution as a fact and see no contradiction in believing in God and the ToE.
Wait, so this guy believes his god deliberately tricks him to prove its existence? Does he worship Loki?
I also love how he conveniently forgets about those other 2000 religions out there. Or maybe he thinks they're all atheists, too?
So many problems that it's hardly worth it, but here goes....
"... that atheism is a belief system in something that is equally far-fetched as belief in God."
Premise: God of the capital "G" = Christian Jehovamagod thingy-with-the-three-ply-head.
Premise: There are those that believe as fervently in other gods.
Observation: They can't all be right, but they can all be wrong.
Conclusion: Atheism is not as far-fetched as belief in God.
YOU FAIL!
“Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mindboggingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as the final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God.
- Douglas Adams
Babel Fish.....
damn beaten to it!!
In other words, you consider God a liar and deceiver by creating false proof for evolution as a test of "free-will", so if God does exist then you think he is evil? Now that is a truly unique concept for a fundie!
<i>...that atheism is a belief system in something that is equally far-fetched as belief in God.</i>
Every time I see the whole "atheism is a religion" thing, I think of the Church of the Atheists from Metalocalypse.
I agree with DFox... the whole reason I came into the comment section on this one is that you can tell that this one is trying sooo hard to use logic and reasoning... but he stops short when it would make him change his beliefs
if he can get past that one little hiccup, this one might make it out OK.
"But then it hit me one day that without them, we couldn't truly have free will. If scientific method led us to God and nothing else, well there would be no faith, no free will. We would pretty much HAVE to believe in God. At that point it is no longer belief, but proof."
Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.
TruthBKnown: Wait til I get going! Now, where was I?
Actually, are you really advocating free will?, or are you saying that science can demonstrate that God exists?, WTF?
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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