Zbrah #fundie

Zbrah #fundie digg.com

<<On Dinesh D'Souza's article "Where is Atheism When Bad Things Happen?">>

Let me first say that I'm a conservative(but not a Bush supporter) and a Christian.I just am wondering why the atheists care at all about what happened at VA. Tech?Let me preface by saying that I obviously realize that you do care,sincerely.But my question is how you can care if you believe there is no God?Why is there any reason to care about anyone but yourself(and even you is just molecules in motion,with nothing else but chance guiding what you do...which is,by the way,absurd in my opinion)?Why is there any reason for you to feel compasion on those beings that happen to be a part of your same species?Where does your moral obligation to feel anything for anyone come from?Where does love come from?

As already stated,I realize that of course you care about what happened to those people,of course you feel anger towards the madman who did it.My question is what,within your worldview, gives you any reason to "feel" anything?I'm sure there will be many attacks against my faith...but first try and answer this..then I'll answer yours.

36 comments

old comment by JohnTheAtheist

I don't understand why a belief in god is supposed to make you care more about other people. Do these jackasses truly believe that christianity invented the concept of being nice to or caring about other people?

As with everything else our sense of empathy evolved. Clearly the human brain is complex enough to put ones self in anothers shoes. If for no other reason I felt sad for those murdered, people I did not know, because I could relate it to being murdered myself or having someone close to me murdered in the same way.

This emotion is the same for human beings across all divides, be they christian, muslim, jewish, buddhist or atheist. The fact of the matter is that morality does NOT come from religion; this has been demonstarted by something called "research" which goes beyond "pulling facts from one's anus".

That is all.

old comment by Swede

Humans are social animals. Social animals care for other individuals as that will help them to survive. For the survival of the species empathy has evolved. Other animals clearly have empathy too, and they're certainly not religious. My cat comes to me when I'm sad, and tries to comfort me.

I care about other people because I can put myself in their position, imagine how I would feel if it happened to me.
Nature is guiding me, not chance (Natural Selection, ya know); the question "will this action cause harm to me or other humans, animals and plants?" helps me to do mostly good things.

My love probably comes from my parents. They instilled in me that I am precious and that other people are precious too, that life is worth living because of the people in our life.

You have every right to have whatever faith you want, as long as you don't try to push it onto me or onto others.
I know many religious people who don't have a problem with me not being religious.

old comment by Karlsbad

Zbrah makes a valid point. To reject the existence of a God or gods is to ultimately reject metaphysical certainties and truths. Without them, all normative questions become open and relative. Ergo, the ethical question 'why care about these people' is perfectly valid. Some people will say 'empathy', and if they are sincere then that'll do. For anyone who wants to claim that it is 'right', you're going to have to prove it just as much as any theist has to prove the existence of their choice of deity or deities.

So-called 'new atheists' annoy me with their crypto-Christian morals. Calling Zbrah and his ilk idiots simply because they are asking this sort of question is daft in itself.

old comment by Dr. Shrinker

No Karlsbad, Zbrah does NOT make a valid point.

Empathy is a well established fact of human existence. It has been established repeatedly that deficits in empathy correspond with increasing likelihood of engaging in criminal behavior. A society that is rife with disruptive behavior produces more stress, less comfort and a higher chance of being killed for the members of the society. Clearly empathy is real and it is a good thing for people to have for its own sake. There is no need to appeal to the supernatural to certify it.

With regards to morals, it comes down to the golden rule: do unto others as you would have them do unto you. This principle was spelled out long before Jesus was born, in places that didn't even hear of him until the past couple of centuries. The Golden Rule exists because it is an effective and reasonable basis for a society to function on, i.e. when it is practiced, it yields real world benefits. Again, no appeal to the supernatural needs to be made.

Ethics was a well establish branch of philosophy long before Christianity appeared. It stemmed from the twin questions of what is the best sort of life to live and what will best help society function in the long run. These are the essential roots of ethics: no appeals to the supernatural are necessary.
Zbrah's confusion as to how non-religious people could possibly feel empathy reflects his/her narrow-minded, self-centered view that only those who see the world the way he/she does could possibly be "good." The fact is that the ability to feel compassion, social responsibility and, yes, love have nothing to do with ones gullibility in accepting supernatural explanations.

old comment by Kuyohashi

Let me ask you something- why do you Christians care when someone dies? I mean, you believe in Heaven and Hell, and that everyone is destined for one of those two places. If someone dies and goes to your destination resort, why aren't you happy, or jealous that they got to go and you didn't? I mean, where ever they are, it has to be better then here, right? I posit that Christians have no value for life. Life is meaningless to them, because hey, the good stuff happens when you die, right? We care, because we know that life is precious. We get only one shot at it. One. No afterlife. One life. And when it's gone, that is it. We care, because the loss of life is a tragedy. Or as you call it, 'wholesome family entertainment'.

how you can care if you believe there is no God?

Ethics, empathy. Humanism, awareness of human suffering and rights. What many so called "Christians" hypocritically demonize as "woke" or "Cultural Marxism", to justify abuse, inequality, the unacceptable and to advocate a return to the savagery of the middle-ages, actually. Not everyone needs to be threatened by imaginary beings and eternal punishments to be human. We care about education, too, it empowers people against obscurantism and elite abuse. We even see evidence of empathy in other animals, it helps survival by reducing conflict. Secular societies also have law codes, don't they. Then what if it's the only life you really have?

attacks against my faith

Is replying to a question and correcting your ignorance, denouncing your attack against others that they supposedly shouldn't feel anything, an attack?

To reject the existence of a God or gods is to ultimately reject metaphysical certainties and truths. Without them, all normative questions become open and relative. (from another commenter)

When you are aware of how humans create their own and adapt them to their ideology throughout history, twist scripture, cherry pick, etc. This makes no sense. This also denies ethics and legal codes. Not believing in the existence of Zeus because there is no evidence of its existence is not anarchy or extreme relativism. The same for other deities of human tradition. Also, there are facts of the world that we can discover from evidence, we don't have to swim in an eternal "we can never know anything"... If there really was a way to objectively assess the existence of a deity and query them about the knowledge of the world and law codes or "instructions book", there wouldn't be all those forever-conflicting human traditions, interpretations, sectarianism. It is obvious that the "holy texts" that we have are of human tradition and that the anthropomorphic deities we have were created by humans (hence the false justification "humans created in God's image").