(Gay marriage debate) *Definitions come after Human rights*
You are Atheist, are you not? Well, if you are, your hypocrisy is extraordinary. In an Atheist world, no one has rights. No one is entitled to anything. In an Atheist world, the state gives and defines rights, therefor the state is the only thing in existence that has any natural right, and that right is to define the rights of it's subjects.
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You are christian, are you not? Well, if you are, your hypocrisy is extraordinary. In a christian world, no one has rights except christians. No one is entitled to anything. In a christian world, the church gives and defines rights, therefore the church is the only thing in existence that has any natural right, and that right is to define the rights of it's subjects, even if we don't believe in your god.
Fixed it for you. And didn't even get a thank you.
1. Or you could say that morals are defined by society as new information is gained and accepted. Once we realized that being gay isn't a disease or a mental illness, it became imperative that we treat everyone fairly regardless of orientation.
2. The state's obligation -- to take an excerpt from the US constitution -- is to promote the general welfare. Although rights are defined by society, I would expect the state to support them or be called out by the people. Thus the state is better positioned to promote ethics and morality than either corporations (whose sole obligation is profits) or religions (which tend to stick with outdated ideas of morality and ethics despite new information)
All states do give (or restrict) rights. Some do it through a bill of rights, others less directly through various pieces of legislation. Some don't really bother much with that whole 'rights' thing. So, different people do have different rights, others do not, depending on location. The United Nations does have several charters on rights, though not all countries agree to or adhere to them.
So, saying that 'no one has rights' is incorrect. It's just rights are something humans come up with, as opposed to a deity. They're a way of organising how people should be treated. So saying same-sex marriage may very well be considered a human right. Both rights and marriage can change.
"In an Atheist world, the state gives and defines rights, therefor the state is the only thing in existence that has any natural right, and that right is to define the rights of it's subjects."
Not so. Human rights watchdog panels can pretty much say what is or is not a right, simply by instinct, observation, and common sense. With perseverance and luck, they can persuade governments to improve their conduct.
Ethics and Philosophy 101 Fail.
For about four hundred years now people have thought that there is such a thing as a social contract, in Hobbesian terms, a contract between the rulers and the ruled. Rights and obligations are part of that contract just as much as they are part of the contract or covenant between Christians and their god. Many modern democratic states believe one has the right to do anything provided that the law does not forbid it. So in the "Atheist world," it is not the state but the citizen who is the one with natural rights.
A very good example of such a social contract is the Constitution of the United States. Unlike the Christian covenant, the Constitution does not need a god to enforce either side of the bargain, yet it accords rights and exacts responsibilities from those who are party to the contract, the citizens of the USA. No wonder, then, that fundies have such a partial and skewed view of the Constitution.
Fuck...Eh, screw it. I'm too angry to just say FU and be done with it. Atheists are nothing like that, you fucking demonizing halfwitted milksop.I will laugh when your calamity cometh, I will mocketh when your fear cometh.
"In an Atheist world, no one has rights."
Except in the atheist bill of rights.
"In an Atheist world, the state gives and defines rights,"
In a fundie world, the giant man who lives on clouds gives and defines rights, and if you believe in a different giant man, you don't get any of those rights.
In an Atheist world, no one has rights.
How so? What about basic human rights we all have just for being born human? You have absolutely no understanding of atheism at all.
But what rights do you have being Christian? You MUST believe in God and Jesus, you MUST worship Jesus as your savior, you MUST follow the ten commandments (and tons of other rules and laws set down in the bible, many of them contradictory), and you MUST go to church every Sunday, or else you will suffer eternal torture in Hell.
Solzhenitsyn
You're fat and he couldn't deal with fat. Fat, lazy, proud. He couldn't deal with that. Who can, I posit?
Bring me up to speed Hasan? Melanie Phillips - have you ever met her? Locked horns, snorted?
"...In an Atheist world, no one has rights. No one is entitled to anything..."
- utter nonsense.
- same applies in any democracy.
- lovely non sequitur.
"...and that right is to define the rights of it's subjects."
- You tend to find subjects in kingdoms. In republics you have citizens, from whom the state government derives its power.
- Par contre: it is in a thocracy that the state defines all rights and requires it people to
- You should re-read the foundation documents of the US.
In an Atheist world, no one has rights.
These people always talk about "God given rights".
Can somebody please point out to me exactly where in the Bible these rights are mentioned?
Oh, that's right, they're not. It's just assumed they come from God.
Then let's just say "naturally given rights" and everything's ok. Except for the religious lot who would lose there self-defined monopoly on, well, everything.
In an atheist world, we all have the same basic human rights, as there are no gods to choose one group of people over the rest.
As most western states keep religion out of their laws, we are already living in a atheist world.
Balancing the power of the state and our rights is a tricky thing. After all, we know we need rights but we also need a state strong enough to protect those rights and punish those that take away other people's rights. That said, powerful states tend to take away people's rights and the most powerful states give their people the least rights. However, none of this has anything to do with religion and everything to do with politics.
"You are Atheist, are you not?"
Absolutely.
"Well, if you are, your hypocrisy is extraordinary."
Oh, do tell.
"In an Atheist world, no one has rights. No one is entitled to anything."
And yet, many of the most atheistic states in the world have the best records for human rights. Curious that.
"In an Atheist world, the state gives and defines rights, therefor the state is the only thing in existence that has any natural right, and that right is to define the rights of it's subjects."
When the state is subject to a reasonably fair election process and public review, that works out pretty well. When one is lashed to an ancient collection of fairy tales, many rights are in peril.
In an atheist world no one has rights, except the ones we've agreed on, those totally don't count.
Yes, that's generally how it works, even if you're unaware of it and think gods are the ones granting rights.
@Hasan Prishtina
Many modern democratic states believe one has the right to do anything provided that the law does not forbid it.
Not quite. Modern democratic states (the ones that aren't actively trampling on human rights, at least), operate on the assumption that law should exist for the safety and well-being of society at large, except in such cases that the public interest happens to be in conflict with human rights. When something is agreed upon to be a right, the laws change to accomodate it, not the other way around.
Atheists and gay people pay all the same taxes that religious people do. Therefore, they are entitled to exactly the same rights and privileges that all other taxpayers have, and that all other non-criminal citizens have. That includes voting, marrying, living and working wherever they like.
You might want to read about how LBJ expanded civil rights in a non-democratic fashion; I'm sure it will make you grind your teeth..
Isn't it cute how they can't tell the difference between atheism, totalitarianism, socialism, evolution, climate change, communism and anarchy?
"In an Atheist world, the state gives and defines rights, therefor the state is the only thing in existence that has any natural right, and that right is to define the rights of it's subjects."
You don't understand atheism do you? Also that is a shiny mirror. Atheists tend to give people less shit than Christians for believing differently though many will still give shit and some Christians can be rather respectful, more Christians than atheists bitch about other religions having rights. More Christians tend to try to limit gay rights than anyone else
@Ironchew
Nulla poena sine lege (no penalty without a law) is one of the basic foundations of European law. The similar principle that everything that is not forbidden is allowed is fundamental to common law in English-speaking countries. Written law does not take care of every aspect of every conceivable situation; this is the chief reason we have caselaw. I think you may have misunderstood what I mean by rights; rights are not just about the rights fought over by culture warriors but the simplest of things, like the right to walk in the park or cultivate one's garden. As I said, that which is not forbidden is permitted.
I'm an atheist, but I believe in a giant troll who lives under the Brooklyn Bridge. His name is HACK-PTOOEY! At least that's what he said when I asked him. He's my friend, so he's the one that grants me rights, and he'll beat the shit out of anyone that tries to take them away or even argue with me. Maybe not today, but some day.... If you don't do what he says, you will spend eternity on a pile of rotting fish after you die.
You don't believe in my troll? That means you don't believe in ANYTHING! You aren't respecting my beliefs! WHY ARE YOU PERSECUTING ME??? WAAAAAAH!
It's amazing that Fundies are so against atheism yet seem to have zero understanding of what it actually is. Then again, why am I surprised? They bash other religions and have no idea what they are about either. Not to mention the theory of evolution, of course.
(emph-ass-is added):
"In an Atheist world, no one has rights. No one is entitled to anything. In an Atheist world, the state gives and defines rights , therefor the state is the only thing in existence that has any natural right, and that right is to define the rights of it's subjects."
Okay.
Find for me the words 'God', 'Jesus', 'Creator' and 'Marriage'. To make it easier, just click on 'Edit', then 'Find' on your browser and type in the words one after the other. Got that? Good.
I'm afraid the very basis of what makes your state what it is only makes reference to the fact that the government (i.e. the US) doesn't tell those who are religious who/how to worship, the religious don't have the fucking right to tell the government how to run the country.
Now, unless you want to forfeit the Constitution's protections on religions in your country, the only option you have is to STFU. Same-sex marriage - according to the Constitution - is legal . Deal with it.
Well, if you get to define "Atheist world" however you like, then I'll define "Cosara world" as one where no citizen has the right to express anything other than blinding, self-serving stupidity.
"You are Atheist, are you not? Well, if you are, your hypocrisy is extraordinary."
image
First thing that popped into my mind.
I'm not an atheist, I worship the giant mutant star goat.
The giant mutant star goat gives us our rights. He says that one of the rights we have is the right to slap Christians around with a wet noodle. You wouldn't deny me my Goat-given rights, would you?
@Alencon : Speaking of anarchy, most anarchists, excepting the Tolstoyans, are atheists... which undermines the assertion that atheists necessarily believe rights only come from the state. Bakunin did a great job of arguing against both the state and organised religion in God and the State
@Raised by Horses: Shortpacked. Nice.
@Hasan Prishtina: Ultimate win. Collect your internets from your nearest post office.
Technically atheism simply means not believing in god(s), so it says fuck-all about rights, except that they are not "Gawd-given".
@Lady Evil:
You know, I was looking at the Brick Bible today and learned something I didn't know. Apparently, early Christians not only practiced communism, but were sentenced to death if they didn't. (Just "fell down dead" my ass!)http://www.bricktestament.com/acts_of_the_apostles/accept_communism_or_die/ac04_32p34-35.html
You use url tags:
(url=your url)text of the link(/url), just replace the () by []
Like this
"the state gives and defines rights, therefor the state is the only thing in existence that has any natural right"
Here's the root of your misunderstanding:
They are both manufactured idealisms, except laws work towards a freer organized society and religion leads to enslavement of the masses.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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