MarxRaptor #fundie

The "Since That Worked So Well the First Time" Award

MarxRaptor #fundie atheistforums.org

I was thinking up ideas today, & I have a really good one. Germany should be reoccupied & not be allowed any sort of military. Germany's existence is a stain on humanity. Instead of spending money on the military, Germany should have to cut back all spending & raise taxes; sending all the money to Israel.

46 comments

old comment by Honorary Kraut

As an American who has been living in Germany for the past 38 years, I can say that not only the post-war shock of the Holocaust but also the changes over the last 25-30 years have led to a generation that is globally minded and has begun to embrace a healthy patriotism that is void of the negative nationalistic elements. They are more or less incapable of understanding what their (great)grandparents did and how it could have happened.

Of course, any people is a product of their own past and Germans are still Germans, but the subtil differences are important and quite astounding. On the whole, America presently exeeds Germany in bigotry, hate, intolerance, nationalism, cultural ignorance, isolationism, racism, militarism, and a few other -isms by far.

@aebars: Germany has adequately atoned.
No they haven't, and they know they never will be able to. Adequate atonement for the Holocaust is impossible.

old comment by Mech610

"I was thinking up ideas today, & I have a really good one..."

Oh, here we go.

"...Germany should be reoccupied & not be allowed any sort of military."

And there's the kicker. That is not only a bad idea, it's also utterly pointless as Israel does not represent all Jews nor all victims of the Shoah. Additionally, it would be throwing the former Allied powers across the moral event horizon to suddenly invade an reconquer a nation they defeated 60 years ago. A nation, I might add, that has been a close ally of those former powers for decades now.

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@aebars & Honorary Kraut

I agree with Honorary Kraut, that was kind of a dumb thing you said aebars. As a Jew who had family in the Holocaust and just as a human being in general who despises genocide in all it's forms, there is no possible way to 'atone' for the Holocaust. You cannot atone or be forgiven for genocide. The German nation can apologize for what happened, make reparations, which they have done admirably, but they cannot and never will be forgiven for it, and they know that. It's a testament to the kind of decent people the Germans of today are that they KNOW there can be no forgiveness and yet they continue to apologize, it proves that they aren't the Nazis and that sort of hate will never take root in their country again.

I and no one I know blames modern Germans for the crimes of their grandparents. Modern German people have no need to atone because being born into a culture that committed genocide is not a crime. Germany itself, as a nation, will never be able to make up for what the Nazis did and there can't and will never be forgiveness for it.

old comment by Mech610

@Insult to Rocks

The Japanese do get this kind of treatment, quite a bit. The current Emperor has repeatedly begged forgiveness for the crimes of his grandfather's reign. Other Japanese politicians who refuse to acknowledge the atrocities of Japan during the Pacific War, specifically things like comfort women get routinely blasted in Japanese and Asian media outlets.

As for Italy, yes, they committed war crimes but they at the very least, didn't send 11 million people to death camps. The Italian people also drove their own fascist government out before the Allies got there, which is why they were never really considered a conquered enemy.

Please do some research before you say things like that, okay?

old comment by UHM

@aebars, Honorary Kraut, Insult to Rocks, Mech610:
As a young German, I feel the need to comment on that discussion.
While the German nation will never adequately atone for what happend, I do believe the German people can. When every last Nazi (read: every last German of that generation that did not fight the Nazis) and every last victim and direct relative of the victims have died, we can stop paying money. What we can never do, is stop remembering. We can never just say "that was different generation, that was a different country", not as Germans, but as humans we always have to remember. Just as Amercans always have to remember the Indian genocide and slavery, just as Britain, France and Spain have to deal with their colonial and imperialist history, just as Japan really should deal with it's own war crimes, just as Australia has to be conscious about it's treatment of the Aboriginals just as really any other nation has some skeleton on display or currently picking the meat of it (Israel, Korea, Syria).
What we should also not do, is put the Nazis on a pedestal of evil and pretend like that was the only time something like this ever happend. While the dimensions might have been bigger than ever before or after, there have been many planned genocides throughout history - and yes, I'm talking to you Turkey. Part of remembering for atonement, is to stop it from happening again and where it already happend to make people remember, so that it won't happen again.

old comment by Anon-e-moose

Well, there's Israel out of the Eurovision Song Contest, then (what have THEY got to do with Europe, anyway?!); Turkey wants to be a member of the EU, so they can take their place, eh? And while we're about it, all the US military bases can be removed from Germany too; nah, Russia no longer represents a threat, so your country won't be needing a strategic position in Europe, will it not?

Will you be wanting Germany's Bundeswehr to hand over to Russia those East German MiG-29s they inherited via reunification? Canada has a lot of Leopard II tanks they bought from Germany; how will they possibly defend themselves?! [/hyper-sarcasm]

As per those US bases, Germany's a member of NATO; like I say, the Bundeswehr. PROTIP: Jordan is a Muslim country. The monarch of that country values Israel as an ally in that region, and has full diplomatic & trade relations with that Jewish state. As does Azerbaijan; a Muslim country that - like Iran - is a mainly Shia one. Enjoy your paradox.

In the early years of Israel's formation as a country, the US's North American Aviation refused to sell it's (at that time, the most advanced jet fighter) F-86 Sabre. Israel had to buy for it's fledgling air force Gloster Meteors from the UK. Not so many decades ago, the likes of you MarxRaptor, when the words 'Israel/Jewish/Jew' came up in conversation, invariably replied 'Christ Killers!'.

Therefore here's a thought, and it's a good one, MarxRaptor: 21st Century America should hold to North American Aviation's policy in the 1950s, and refuse to give Israel any sort of military aid. [/mega-paradox]

old comment by Xenuwuzhere

Let's tax Japan into destitution too and kill the entire global economy after making the richest country in Europe destitute since the US is the bastion of economic prosperity and can pick up the slack. Let me guess, you're one of the ultra-orthodox Chareidi Jews that refuse to work and live off of state welfare? Let's turn the world into a slave colony that works to fund Jewish people which have no less than four kids a piece who refuse to work and whose kids will not work as adults. The problem with Israel's economy is a plethora of Israelites who have made being epically lazy a Fundamentalist religious practice, not Germany having any more reparations to pay.

old comment by Hasan Prishtina

No doubt MarxRaptor, being a good fundie, thinks Albanians, Bosnians and Croats should just get over their treatment less than 20 years ago at the hands of the Christian Serbs.

@everyone who's commented so far

I agree with UHM. But it's not only the Germans who cannot stop remembering; it's every other nation that participated in WWII and, as Insult to Rock notes, facilitated the Shoah. That's not just Italy, but includes other allies of Germany such as Romania and Hungary, as well as occupied countries like France and the Netherlands. It also includes neutrals like Spain, Switzerland and the Vatican who assisted in laundering the proceeds of crime and helping those responsible to escape. It also includes countries that were part of the wartime United Nations, like the successor states of the Soviet Union, who took the opportunity murderously to persecute their own Jews.

@Anon-e-moose

Israel is a member state of the European Broadcasting Union which is the body that does all Eurovision broadcasts. Morocco has also competed in the Song Contest and Azerbaijan has won it.

@Swede

What an original point: the Jews were treated abominably by non-Jews, so it is the Jews, not non-Jews, whose actions should be held up to moral equivalence, and it is the Jews who should be lectured on their deficiencies. Such comments help one to understand the demographic trend that will soon enable Sweden able to boast that it is Judenrein.

MarxRaptor #fundie atheistforums.org

46 comments

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