I have to admit that I was shocked and saddened when watching the Waltons the other night. I just couldn't believe what I was hearing, and it showed me just how far back this push for "tolerance" started.
In this show, Jason Walton was dating a Jewish girl. The girl was confused about her religion and wasn't even sure what it meant to be Jewish. She winds up being all upset and emotional and running off to talk to the new minister at the baptist church the Walton family goes to. (I know I called her a "girl" but she was a woman, full grown and in the army) What shocked me so much was what the minister did. He listened to her (good) and let her get everything off her chest and then proceeded to explain all about Judaism to her and gave her a book that had been given to him by a Jewish Rabbi about Judaism. He then told her that he'd find out where the nearest Temple was so she could start attending there! In the next scene the minister is giving his Sunday sermon which, believe it or not is all about tolerance. He says very proudly that they are "baptists" and the most important thing to remember is that their founder (can't remember the name) had said that any good baptist was tolerant of other religions! Next was a scene of the Waltons at lunch and one of them paraphrases the minister saying that and indicate that as good baptists they should have been proud to help a Jewish person discover their beliefs.
By then I was wavering between anger, disbelief and tears! That minister alone actually picked that girl up out of our Lord's hands and forced her back into a false religion! I'm not at all against helping her understand her roots mind you, but instead of pushing her out the door and into a Temple, why not take the time to explain to her what her Jewish roots are and how wonderful it is and how God entrusted to her people His laws etc and take her from there and show her how God then sent His Son and how she could be saved??? That way she could have understood her roots AND been saved!!!
Instead though, they tossed her to the wolves so she can spend eternity in hell while they all pat themselves on the back for being "good baptists!"
I know...it's only a story, but I'm also sure that it actually happens every day. Hell will be filled with folks because of "good Christians" who were being tolerant.
81 comments
That's all well and good if you are right...but what if you are wrong. What if Judaism is the correct religion. You are starting from the point that only you and your version of religion is right but if you are wrong you are boned aren't you.
I know this might be a bit hard to accept, you know you being wrong and all but it is just as likely you are wrong as it is that she is wrong. Maybe try and think about that for a bit.
@C_V
A lot of areas have a local "retro" channel that plays shows ranging from The Waltons and Highway to Heaven to Dark Shadows and Night Stalker. The one in my area plays B-movies every Saturday night, with commentary, like a lower budget MST3K.
That said, this is more "conspiracy" than "fundie." After all, the notion of "accepting people who are different than you" must be a global conspiracy powered by the media. ;)
judaism = false religion!
jesus being jewish means jesus is in hell!
Cindy seems to think jesus was a christian.
LMFAO!
Really, Cindy? Sigh...
First of all, it's fiction. No one is claiming that The Waltons is meant as an instruction manual. Second, Jews don't believe in Hell. Third, if you don't even know who founded your religion? We can only conclude that you're a silly hick.
"it showed me just how far back this push for "tolerance" started"
That's not an indication of how far back tolerance started, it's an indication of how recently it stopped.
"..and then proceeded to explain all about Judaism to her and gave her a book that had been given to him by a Jewish Rabbi about Judaism."
The Old Testament, I take it? You know, the starting point of Christianity? Ring any bells?
Good God, do you people even read your own holy texts?
...and forced her back into a false religion!
1) No one can or does force anyone to believe something they don't want to. Can't and won't happen.
2) You claim Judaism is a false religion but anyone else can point their finger at you and claim the same about Christianity. Until you have incontrovertible evidence, the burden of proof is on all you believers, regardless of what god(s) you believe in.
I hate to be a great big intolerance bubble buster, but your Jesus religion has roots in Judaism. The Ten Commandments? Judaism. The creation myth? Judaism. The very foundation of your religion? Judaism. To call Jewish faith a false religion without noticing your religion is also false is calling the kettle black.
Kettle: You're black.
Pot: You're black too, but I am a shinier and sleeker black which makes me better than you.
The Baptist religion is a false satanic religion. The real god is Jehovah and the real religion is Jewish. That pastor saved her from an eternity of hellfire.
Or he would have, if that episode wasn't fiction.
By then I was wavering between anger, disbelief and tears!
Holy shit! Hysterical much? It's just a TV show, lady.
Hell will be filled with folks because of "good Christians" who were being tolerant.
Then your god is a prick if he sends people (and his chosen people no less!) to hell just because someone else convinced them of something. Especially since it seems she was never given the information to make a decision. You're one of those assholes that thinks a person born in a tribe far away from civilization is going to hell for having the audacity to not hear about Jesus, aren't you? And I bet somehow you still think your god is a great guy for doing that.
Oh, I hate it when people can't tell fiction from reality. That Doctor Who episode about Satan? It's just a story. The Stargate episodes about aliens posing as gods? Fiction. This Walton episode about a Jewish girl finding her faith again? It's not real. Grow up. If TV bothers you so much, get rid of it.
Has anyone stopped to think how low a bar "tolerance" really is? When I say I "tolerate" something that means that I recognize its existence and, without regard to whether or not I like it, there's nothing I can do about it so I'll just leave it be.
What's really sad is that, when it comes to other religions and people whose orientations might go differently from mine, even that low a bar is unattainable.
So what you are saying is that you have justified to yourself the moral right to be intolerant of things you don't like, things based on a book that is not verified, because if you tolerate them people will go to a bad place that you think exists because it says so in the same unverified book. That you can be intolerant of others who have a different belief in different books because you personally assert that your belief is true and theirs is not.
Well. I suppose you're internally consistent at least.
So you call the faith practiced by Jesus Christ Himself a "false religion"?
You seriously need to spend the next few Sundays in your church's Sunday School class for the very little kids rather than in the chapel, and pay attention to what they teach them about the history of your religion, since clearly you didn't do so your first time around.
I also am outraged.
The episode should have showed the good Baptists, in the dead of night, donning their white robes and hoods and burning out them thar filthy Joos.
Then they could have strung up some uppity niggers to show 'em who's boss.
Fuck that tolerance shit!
I would bet this boob's into that "Christian Identity" crud, too. Any idiot knows that JESUS WAS A FREAKIN' JEW! In fact, Christianity was originally an OFSHOOT OF JUDAISM...a kinder, nobler take on Judaism...the original "Reformed Judaism"! In an odd way, Christianity IS A FORM OF JUDAISM! Yeesh! What a hateful anti-semetic meathead!
"I have to admit that I was shocked and saddened when watching the Waltons the other night. I just couldn't believe what I was hearing, and it showed me just how far back this push for "tolerance" started." tl;dr...
Wow. A TV series in the early 1970s, emerging from the socio-political conditions born of the Civil Rights Movement, to say nothing of 'Flower Power' and the 'Summer of Love' in the mid-late 1960s respectively.
Well, whoop-de-fucking -do. [/hyper-sarcasm]
What concerned me far more in "The Waltons" was this: for a family financially suffering during the Great Depression, yet, they owned a whole fucking mountain ?!
Nope, no plot hole big enough to pilot the Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann* through - sideways - nosiree. [/mega-sarcasm] [/Fridge Logic]
*- And this eponymous mecha in the anime series by Gainax was universe -sized.
Yeah, friggin' Jews! They should be put in death camps! Along with all the othe brown people's false religions!
/sarcasm
All religions are EQUALLY false, dumbass.
Not all minsters are that tolerant, only the really decent ones, the ones who follow the Golden Rule. He would probably not be forced fed some strange religion, so he refrained from force feeding her his strange religion.
He neither pushed nor forced her to do anything, he explained what she wondered about. It's her choice what to do with the information.
Oh yes, how dare you be nice to your neighbors!
Sounds like someone needs to read their holy book again
BTW, Christ was a Jew you fucking moron
"I know...it's only a story, but I'm also sure that it actually happens every day."
Your lot seems to take the exact same position on Harry Potter.
You realize that the God of the Jewish faith is the same as the Christian God? The only difference is with Jesus, whom the Jews do not accept as the Messiah prophesied in the Old Testament (aka The Tanakh).
If your God is sending good tolerant Christians to Hell, I don't want to do to Heaven. It's going to be filled with sanctimonious fuckwits such as yourself.
"By then I was wavering between anger, disbelief and tears!"
Cindy you REALLY need to get out more.
"Instead though, they tossed her to the wolves so she can spend eternity in hell"
So every dead jew is burning in hell. Who'd have thunk it.
If Jesus saved mankind, why do I have to believe in it in order for it to count? That doesn't really sound like salvation at all, it sounds more like a Mafioso forcing us to pay protection money or else something will bad will happen to our place of business.
I was wavering between anger, disbelief and tears!
I just love it when people lose sleep worrying about their fairy tale.
I've never made it through a full epiode of The Waltons. The most boring, disgustung crap imaginable, and I remember it from when it was on its first run.
" (I know I called her a "girl" but she was a woman, full grown and in the army)"
Why did you do it in the first place then?"Cindy", you misogynistic prick.
@anon-e-moose: OBJECTION! TTGL was galaxy-sized.Also, don't throw unmarked spoilers like that.
"What shocked me so much was what the minister did. He listened to her (good) and let her get everything off her chest and then proceeded to explain all about Judaism to her and gave her a book that had been given to him by a Jewish Rabbi about Judaism. He then told her that he'd find out where the nearest Temple was so she could start attending there! In the next scene the minister is giving his Sunday sermon which, believe it or not is all about tolerance."
Obviously the writer of the episode was unaware that the suspension of disbelief only goes so far. I mean really, a Christian minister preaching tolerance and following Christ's example? Who would buy that ? And a Baptist minister to boot. Just how gullible did the writer think the audience was anyway?
"He says very proudly that they are "baptists" and the most important thing to remember is that their founder (can't remember the name) had said that any good baptist was tolerant of other religions! Next was a scene of the Waltons at lunch and one of them paraphrases the minister saying that and indicate that as good baptists they should have been proud to help a Jewish person discover their beliefs. [...] That minister alone actually picked that girl up out of our Lord's hands and forced her back into a false religion!"
I'm not sure you're aware of this but Jesus was a Jew also. So were Moses and Abraham. You know the "Holy Trinity" of your religion, if you'll excuse the pun.
"Hell will be filled with folks because of 'good Christians' who were being tolerant."
You must live in the same fantasy world the writer of the episode does.
I know...it's only a story, but I'm also sure that it actually happens every day.
So, about all those stories about the priests and the choir boys...
This all begs the question--why is a creature that would gleefully torture you FOREVER because you chose the wrong 'brand' of religion....worth worshiping at all?
Seriously, fuck that guy.
Those dirty, filthy, sleazy, commie, immoral Waltons!
As many other people have pointed out, Christianity has its roots in Judaism? Wouldn't helping her understand Judaism be a step towards helping her understand the very same God that Christians worship? Wouldn't helping someone understand Judaism act as a possible first step towards understanding Christianity?
I have no idea if the show in question was just portraying Christians who happened to act in a certain way or actively encouraging Christians to act in such a way. If it's the former, then so what? If it's the latter, then maybe Cindy should take their advice.
I'm much more likely to look favorably upon someone who is kind to me and tries to help me than someone who simply sees me as a chance to proselytize. I'm much more likely to become friends with such a person. I'm much more likely to listen to what they have to say and take their opinions and beliefs seriously. I'm much more likely to be interested in their beliefs. And when they say that their religion leads them to do good, I can at least see that they actually try to do good. I'm less likely to dismiss them out of hand. I'm less likely to consider them to be hypocrites. I'm much more likely to have a certain amount of respect for their religious convictions.
I suppose that I wouldn't convert to their religion, at least not unless they could offer empirical evidence that it was true (and I doubt that this is going to happen any time soon). But a lot of people don't seem to place as much importance as I do on things like empirical evidence when it comes to religion. So there's a good chance that by acting in the way Cindy described the Waltons, she'd actually get more people to convert.
So, the Waltons are a tool of Satan now?
What is it with the folks in the US that they have to dream up being persecuted by the Waltons? FFS, grow up!
"Picked that girl up out of our Lord's hands and forced her back into a false religion". No, picked her up out of the Christian God's hands and into the hands of the Hebrew God, who are one and the same.
[That minister alone actually picked that girl up out of our Lord's hands and forced her back into a false religion!]
The Jews were your god's "chosen" people, and your "Lord" was one of them.
[...and take her from there and show her how God then sent His Son and how she could be saved???]
Jesus died a Jew. He died for his followers, who were Jews. Christianity is based on the teachings of Paul.
It can be explained for a number of reasons. First, Christianism is an offshot of judaism, so, if it's a "false religion" so is Christianity. Second, because Baptists particularly quote so much the OT that it actually makes sense. AND, because it may be true that Baptists were pretty tolerant until the seventies. Instead of being so ignorant, why don't you really open your eyes?
@Anon-e-moose
What concerned me far more in "The Waltons" was this: for a family financially suffering during the Great Depression, yet, they owned a whole fucking mountain?!
I'm fairly certain they weren't the owners. IIRC, it was that their ancestor was the first to settle there, which led to it being named "Walton's Mountain."
My favourite episode of The Waltons was the one where the good people of Walton's Mountain watched a cinema newsreel of Nazis burning books. The Baptist minister (a man of German ancestry) railed against the evils of the Nazi regime and his congregation were inspired to gather together all the books in town by German authors or in the German language and take them up a hill to build a pyre and set light to it. John-Boy tried to stop this, but only managed to pluck one book out of the fire. He handed it to the minister and asked him to translate the opening passage: 'In the beginning, God...'
Yeah, it's fiction. Good fiction can be used to explore the ideas we hold about ourselves and the world, but not all fiction is consistently good and you do have to sift through the dross, the hateful and the downright stupid. You must never forget that it's still fiction. It's just like reading the bible.
@Rohanwotan2-
Don't worry, their are still plenty of us with an ounce of common sense. We may salvage what's left of this country yet. I am still looking into real estate in Aruba though, just in case...
That whole site makes Rapture Ready look downright liberal.
He would PROBABLY have been perceived as taking advantage of her confusion to gain a conversion. Since it's a fictional character, that perception would come from viewers, but there would also be justification for including it in the storyline. Jews are still a little uneasy about forced and coerced conversion. Yes, the characters and the viewers can tell the difference between conversion at swordpoint and just being handed some propaganda when you're unsure of your beliefs, but there would still be the taint of dubious consent there. This actually sounds like an example of GOOD writing, that avoids unfortunate implications without being bland or sappy.
Cindy,
While it's true that Christians are commanded to make disciples of all nations, it's also expected by many of the saner sects that you do so by action, not by conversion. Act like a Christian first, and if you're being genuinely Christ-like, people will come to admire that and respond to it, if that's what they desire.
That being said, if Christians were expected to uphold your CONVERSION NAO narrative, and that we had to be sanctimonious jerks who will stop at nothing to make a convert, even if by force, instead of attending to the spiritual and physical well-being of people in need, as Christ would have done, then I gladly, gladly choose Hell and will seek to help people in need rather than support your perverted view of Heaven.
You madam, are no Christian.
What the pastor totally should have done was abduct the girl from her eeeevil Jew family, lock her in the basement and scream bible verses at her while whipping the debbil out of her, right?
I mean, at least until she apologises to Jeebus for...I dunno, not picking her ancestors properly.
Poe or not, the pastor in the episode was absolutely right. The Baptist movement WAS founded on a platform of tolerance. Its originators taught that everyone should read the bible themselves and come to their own conclusions about it. They also promoted the necessity of keeping church and state separated so people's conclusions about the bible would really be their conclusions and not the state's. It is no accident that the US Constitution forbids a state religion: Baptism and Congregationalism was the second most popularly claimed religion among the Founding Fathers (right after Anglicanism.)
The fact that modern day Baptists, especially the southern variety, have turned their backs on the noble ideals of their founders doesn't change history.
@Dr Shrinker: Yay! I'm also pretty sure the eight key ideals of the baptists* were arranged into an acrostic of BAPTISTS , and that one of the Ts was indeed for tolerance, and one of the Ss for separation of church and state.
*Note also it's not an "-ism": There is no official ideology of Baptism, just a movement of Baptists. Originally they, like their forebears the Anabaptists, were very liberal-churchy.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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