@Mephistopheles
"However, while my trade partner from the last paragraph is protected by the government, said government might not protect people in the next country, meaning that anybody can rob them, murder them, kidnap them, force them to work and/or sell them, and the government doesn't care, although they are probably protected by anotehr government. Meaning you can enslave them, and sell them for profit, as long as you avoid capture by their government. Capitalism. "
It's more of a matter of jurisdiction here. The US will prosecute crimes against non-citizens if they're perpetrated on US soil.
In extreme cases it will even pass laws to get around this lack of jurisdiction, kinda, for example banning US citizens from traveling to another country to engage in underage prostitution. Seems like a constructive way to handle it.
"Also, North Korean citizens aren't slaves to their government. Their government has just very restrictive rules. But you can't buy North Koreans."
Formally sure, there is no slavery in North Korea, just like it's a democratic people's republic and there's an abundance of food. Both the law and the public statements made by NK spokesmen are essentially meaningless there since Kimmy has complete dictatorial powers. It's all an act.
Also, there are reports that at least some people in this world can literally "buy North Koreans" or at least rent them. Rent them from who? We all know who since there's only one person in that position.
See the following article, particularly the section that reads "North Korean workers sent abroad".
Keep in mind that NKs cannot freely leave NK. The only NKs outside the country are: 1. defectors 2. people Kimmy sends to work
The entities that do these deals (typically autocratic regimes as you'll see below) with NK know very well that they are complicit to this modern form of slavery, nobody believes they "don't know".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking_in_North_Korea
"The North Korean government recruits workers for bilateral contracts with foreign governments, including in Russia, countries in Africa, Central and Eastern Europe, East and Southeast Asia, including Mongolia, and the Middle East. There are credible reports that many North Korean workers sent abroad by the regime under these contracts are subjected to forced labor, with their movement and communications constantly under surveillance and restricted by North Korean government “minders.”
Credible reports state that they face threats of government reprisals against them or their relatives in North Korea if they attempt to escape or complain to outside parties. Worker salaries are deposited into accounts controlled by the North Korean government, which keeps most of the money, claiming fees for various “voluntary” contributions to government endeavors. Workers only receive a fraction of the money paid to the North Korean government for their work.
Tens of thousands of North Korean workers are estimated to be employed in Russian logging camps, where they reportedly have only two days of rest per year and face punishments when they fail to meet production targets. Wages of some North Korean workers employed in Russia reportedly were withheld until the laborers returned home, in a coercive tactic by North Korean authorities to compel their labor. North Korean workers at joint ventures with foreign investors within the DPRK are employed under arrangements similar to those that apply to overseas contract workers."
"Conversly Communism isn't compatible with slavery, as a true communist system does not have private property, meaning that you can't own people. "
The problem is that communism proposes solutions that don't lead to its ultimate goals.
That's why I blame communism for communist dictatorships. There are inherent flaws with communism due to an unrealistic expectation of human potential and they'll always lead to one guy or a select few having complete dictatorial control over an entire population. I don't think the Soviet Union was merely a flaw of implementation.
For one thing, people cling to their property, so the only way to abolish private property is through a reign of terror. Typically this will also kill the more educated ones, so you get brain drain too. You can't run a prosperous society without intellectuals. But then you also get the problem that people just stop being productive at all levels. Profit isn't a dirty word, it motivates people. We're not primarily driven by altruism.
"What the anonymous libertarian is calling capitalism is in reality libertarianism, which among other things demands that you don't use force agains people even if you can get away with it. This system is truly incompatible with slavery. But it allows someone who is economically powerful to exploit the less fortunate through low wages."
Here's the thing, capitalism is a Marxist term (almost a pejorative) to describe this kind of system. There was certainly no slavery in the kind of market that Marx criticized and in the countries he lived in, he just didn't like idea itself that people would sell their labor to some business owner who held the means of production.
None of that is slavery and we already agree on this.
Is it exploitation? Well that's pretty vaguely defined. Obviously the workers believed they would be better off working for that eeevil exploiter than not working.
Otherwise most of them could just stick to farm life, societies were heavily agrarian before industrialization.
Plus what stopped them from opening their own businesses? If you want to strike a balance, you need to remove restrictions that make people unable to start their own business or be self-employed.
BTW, I'm sure not libertarian would be entirely accurate to describe me, but it's probably close enough, so okay I'll take it.
