V the K #fundie

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As for the Quran, one thing we are taught about Satan is that he mixes lies with the truth. It's unsurprising that there are many, many good things in the Quran. One could even find laudable tenets in the philosophy of Satanism. But you really have to look at the fruits of a religion to determine whether it is really of God or the Adversary.

Iran is a country run entirely by Islamic clergy. Therefore, one would think that the truest expression of Islamic government would be Iran... a country that is the world's leading source of terrorism and leading violators of human rights.

Someone care to tell me where my reasoning here is wrong?

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old comment by christian leftie

Go on, I'll bite:

1. There are three faiths known as "Satanism", one has nothing to do with the Abrahamic faiths, one is an old Christian cult, and the third is what most people think of Satanism. You conflate the three.

2. Given the fruits of people confessing to follow Christianity, it is a warmongering religion of hate greed and intolerance, even if Jesus' teachings where contrary to this. Thus either you have to argue that Christianity is a tool of Satan, or your assumptions is wrong.

3. Iran is run by a secular council overseen by a council of hard-line right-wing Muslim clerics of a single sect. Any conclusion there would necessitate an amalgamation of all Islam as being identical to Shi'ah which it is not.

old comment by Brendan Rizzo

Your reasoning isn't wrong per se, but...

"As for the Bible, one thing it says about Satan is that he mixes lies with the truth. It's unsurprising that there are many, many good things in the Bible. One could even find laudable tenets in the philosophy of Satanism. But you really have to look at the fruits of a religion to determine whether it is really of God or the Adversary.

"During the Middle Ages, Europe was a continent run almost entirely by Christian clergy. Therefore, one would think that the truest expression of Christian government would be in medieval Europe... a continent and time period that was the world's leading source of witch burnings and among the leading violators of human rights."

Oh, the irony!

old comment by Horsefeathers

"As for the Quran, one thing we are taught about Satan is that he mixes lies with the truth."

Except that it's god, not Satan, that lies throughout the Bible.

"It's unsurprising that there are many, many good things in the Quran. One could even find laudable tenets in the philosophy of Satanism. But you really have to look at the fruits of a religion to determine whether it is really of God or the Adversary."

Obviously you've never looked very hard at the fruits of your own religion.

"Iran is a country run entirely by Islamic clergy. Therefore, one would think that the truest expression of Islamic government would be Iran... a country that is the world's leading source of terrorism and leading violators of human rights."

Much like Europe during the time the Church was running things. What's your point?

"Someone care to tell me where my reasoning here is wrong?"

Your reasoning is wrong because you didn't use any.

old comment by HoverSponge

I like this one

As for the Christian Bible, one thing we are taught about Satan is that he mixes lies with the truth. It's unsurprising that there are many, many good things in the Christian Bible. One could even find laudable tenets in the philosophy of Satanism. But you really have to look at the fruits of a religion to determine whether it is really of God or the Adversary.

The Vatican City is a country run entirely by Christian clergy. Therefore, one would think that the truest expression of Christian government would be The Vatican City... a country that is the world's leading source of hate speech against minorities, bigotry and greed.

Someone care to tell me where my reasoning here is wrong?

old comment by Orion

"Iran... a country that is the world's leading source of terrorism and leading violators of human rights."

Woah, woah woah woah woah WOAH!
Hang on a second there.

The world's leading source of Terrorism is the United States which sponsors and supports brutal regimes and insurgent groups worldwide which engage in terrorist activities against the local populace. The purpose of which is to secure friendly regimes (especially in South America) and friendly economic conditions for American business.

As for human rights abuse; every country pretty much has at least some. China probably the most by virtue of total population compared to an authoritarian government, maybe North Korea (hard to know anything about them).

Certainly Iran is no saint but it is nowhere near a leading source of terrorism (Israel does more than Iran), it's not even high on that scale. Human rights you're more correct about however

old comment by Lithp

Gladly.

"As for the Quran, one thing we are taught about"

Making a supposition based on what your religion "teaches" you.

"Satan"

Assuming an unproven entity, IE Satan.

"is that he mixes lies with the truth."

Not applying this to your own belief system.

"It's unsurprising that there are many, many good things in the Quran."

Why would Satan put a lot of good tenets in a book if he was pure evil?

"One could even find laudable tenets in the philosophy of Satanism."

Perhaps because moral systems are created by humans, not angels & demons?

"But you really have to look at the fruits of a religion to determine whether it is really of God or the Adversary."

Not accounting for moderate Muslims or extremist Christians.

Not realizing that this is what Dark Age Europe was like, with Christianity.

Not factoring in that a religion could opt for a secular government.

"Someone care to tell me where my reasoning here is wrong?"

By my count, every place where you could put a fact.

old comment by Jon Doh!

Let us try and discover whether Christianity is really of God or the Adversary.

a) Does Christianity promote bigotry? Why, yes it does.
b) Does Christianity consider females to be of less worth than a camel? Yes
c) Does Christianity actively disseminate untruths in the forlorn belief that it's OK to lie for Jesus? Of course.
d) Do many Christians slavishly think every last syllable of Biblical text is the exact word of God? Too right.
e) Is insanity a requisite for being a Christian? No, but it doesn't half help.
f) Must Christians persecute non-Christians? Yes they must.
g) Must practicing Christians, suffer persecution? Yes they must, even if it's only pretend persecution.
h) Is Christianity against education? Yes, unless the subject being dogmatically delivered to the gullible student is actually Christianity.
i) Do Christians jump through hoops to claim that Christian criminals should not be punished? Duh!

OK. That's enough. There's only 168 hours in a week, and I got a few other things to do.

So, I conclude that Christianity does indeed support God. Sorry Christians, it's hard to arrive at a different conclusion.

old comment by Amadaun

Dude. What you said about Iran is just not-fucking-true, although Bush unaccountably and without warning the State Department throwing it into the Axis of Evil crippled the reform movement eight years ago. And there have been problems, big problems. Like adapting the hadd for 'sowing corruption on earth' to punishing political dissidents, and prolonging a war with Iraq to keep domestic dissent suppressed and consolidate power. (Sound familiar? Snap! Iraq started this one, though.)

The Islamic Republic also improved the standard of living for the average Iranian incredibly, and undermined religion in Iran for all time. No one trusts the ulama the way they used to, because some of them have dirtied themselves with power and blood, and thrown out hundreds of years of religious tradition to do so. Iran is very little to do with Islam anymore, really. And, leaving aside the 1953 coup, it does have an elected government now. It's just also got the Supreme Leader (not even Supreme Jurisprudent anymore, since Khomeini's intended heir left the movement in response to a round of oppression) and the Council of Guardians with veto power over them.

Also, a big Lern2history to all the people referring to the Dark Ages as the time when religion kept Europe down. The Fall of Rome put Europe there. I am not personally a religious entity, but the Church was not a major factor in limiting intellectual advancement until at earliest the Late Medieval period. In the Dark Ages, they're what kept it alive.

old comment by Pule Thamex

@ Amadaun #1228099

True, referring to the time between the Roman Empire's decline and the Renaissance as a dark age is not used as much by historians these days. As there was not really a clear cut period of intellectual or artistic decline. Although, you wouldn't want to live there unless you're a fundamental cultist.

Presumably, regarding the Church, today's sodomizing of boys is just the remaining tip of a whole slew of criminal behaviour and dark impulses that have festered down the years and that were dominant in times past. (Even though the Church has forgiven many of its young victims, apparently.)

As far as the Church is concerned, it's always a dark age, whenever. So maybe we don't need "a big Lern2history" after all, since as a counter to fundamental cultists fantasies of times past, "dark ages" is a perfectly useful term.

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