[Public schools fall under the state side of the separation of church and state. If you want to create a theocracy then you’ll have to do it somewhere else.]
If you want "seperation" then you are going to have to go elsewhere, can I recommend a few communist countries for you to try out. Our founding fathers began this country as a christian nation. We are not about to allow you to change that now.
The only seperation was that there was to be no state approved church like they had back in europe. In Russia the Orthodox Church was the official church. In Rome the Catholic Church was the official Church. In England the Anglo Church was the official Church.
The Danbury Baptist Association were concerned about that here in American and Thomas Jefferson reassured them that they had nothing to worry about no one was going to restrict or hinder their religious freedom.
Now you and others want to take those very rights away from Christian. The rights that many people have died to give us and that Jefferson worked hard to secure for us. You want to deny us the rights that our ancestors worked hard to secure for us and at times even went to war to secure.
Why should I allow you to take away what they were willing to fight for and even willing to sacrifice their life for? Why should I give up my freedoms today?
54 comments
Honestly, I'm tired of this schtick.
While it is true that the intent of the founding fathers was to prevent any specific religion from becoming an "official" religion, the reality is that the only way to do that is to keep goverment out of religion and religion out of government. I'm getting pretty tired of the fundie cry of "RELIGIOUS FREEDOM FOR ALL CHRISTIANS!" That's way off base from what the United States is all about.
We are supposed to be about equal opportunity for all men, about the idea that no man's destiny is pre-written, and all men may aspire to greatness. ALL MEN, meaning all human beings , regardless of difference. We seem to have strayed pretty far from that in recent decades, but that's the ideal.
In the USA, you do not have the right to live in a "Christian" country. You have a right to live as a Christian in the country. Get that through your head.
Our founding fathers began this country as a christian nation.
Oh, really?
Show me one instance anywhere in the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, or the Bill of Rights where Jesus Christ is mentioned.
Also, the First Amendment of the Constitution directly contradicts the First Commandment. Guess which one takes precedence in America?
America is not a Christian nation. It is a nation populated by a majority of Christians. That's it.
"Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. State churches that use government power to support themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of the church tends to make the clergy unresponsive to the people and leads to corruption within religion. Erecting the 'wall of separation between church and state,' therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society. "
-Thomas Jefferson
Bitch.
John, your Christian freedoms are not the least bit threatened. However, it is Christians like you who DO threaten the religous rights of others, which are guaranteed by the First Amendment. Being prevented from persecuting others does NOT constitute your being persecuted!
If you want to live in a country where the First Amendment does not apply, it is YOU who will have to move!
~David D.G.
The way the constitution has been treated by Christians has occasionally puzzled me.
On one hand are the people that try to make it a Christian document by revising its history and meaning, turning it into some kind of false establishment. On the other hand are the people that recognize its secular inspiration, secular authority, and secular purpose... yet obey its rules even when it contradicts the commands they interpret from the bible. (As if our man-made document is a higher authority!)
Should I pity these few poor souls for the difficult position they're in?
Christians stay the fuck out of the schools! You're already on money, media,pledge of allegiance, and so on. Know what I think of Christians who want to get involved with politics and school issues? TAX THESE MOTHERFUCKERS!!!!! They should pay the price of admission like anyone else. These Christians have had a free ride long enough now.
If you want "seperation" then you are going to have to go elsewhere, can I recommend a few communist countries for you to try out.
Persecution of religion is not "separation" of church and state.
Our founding fathers began this country as a christian nation.
Treaty of Tripoli FTW.
The rights that many people have died to give us and that Jefferson worked hard to secure for us.
Jefferson is spinning fast enough in his grave to cause a slight increase in the Earth's orbital eccentricity.
Wasn't he the one who said of Christianity "I do not find one redeeming characteristic in it"? Or was that Thomas Paine?
Why should I give up my freedoms today?
"Freedom" != "right to make others do as I say"
The Danbury Baptist Association were concerned about that here in American and Thomas Jefferson reassured them that they had nothing to worry about no one was going to restrict or hinder their religious freedom.
Actually John, what he said was this:
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God , that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should “make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” thus building a wall of separation between church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.
religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God
i.e. - it's a personal belief, nothing more, nothing less.
The underlined bit is really important. Everyone voted on that and said that was the way Government was to behave.
legislature should “make no law respecting an establishment of religion
This means no passing legislation with a religious bent or establishing or promoting one religion over others. Perversely (more on that word later), when Christians talk about not being able to exercise their religious freedoms, they are talking about not being allowed to persecute others or force others to do their will or comply with their will which is the EXACT opposite of what this entailed.
or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,
This is where you really fall off the rails. Exercising your religion is what you choose believe in your tiny little mind. Exercising religion is NOT burning witches at the stake, it's thinking the big sky daddy loves you very much. Therefore, when he promised to let the Baptists be baptists, that meant he wasn't going to torture them till they believed something else. No one is hindering their religious beliefs.
convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.
Yes it's unfortunate that most established religions are anachronistic with modern society, and education does conflict on this, which it did not when CoS&S was drafted. You CANNOT deny education though, it is an inalienable right.
The Supreme Court, not allowing Christians to persecute others is not persecuting Christians.
Our founding fathers began this country as a christian nation. I gotta tell ya, John...I am frankly not interested, and I've had it up to fucking HERE with this "founding fathers wanted it that way" argument.
The Founding Fathers thought women were inherently too stupid to be allowed to vote. The Founding Fathers thought that Native Americans were useless savages who didn't deserve to own the land they had occupied for a thousand years. The Founding Fathers thought a black man was 3/5 of a person, and for the right price, could be purchased like farm equipment!
So maybe you'll forgive me, perhaps, if I don't leap to change my opinion based on anything these guys said!?
amigone201 - most of the founding fathers were not Christian (especially the most influential ones) and the US Constitution makes no reference to God. Christians were tolerated and allowed to live in peace.
It's kind of been downhill ever since then - stupid pricks think they own the place now, not to mention they all think the Founding Fathers were just like them.
IDIOTS!
Jefferson had this to say on Christianity
But a short time elapsed after the death of the great reformer of the Jewish religion, before his principles were departed from by those who professed to be his special servants, and perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind, and aggrandizing their oppressors in Church and State: that the purest system of morals ever before preached to man has been adulterated and sophisticated by artificial constructions, into a mere contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves: that rational men, not being able to swallow their impious heresies, in order to force them down their throats, they raise the hue and cry of infidelity, while themselves are the greatest obstacles to the advancement of the real doctrines of Jesus, and do, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ.
Meh. So some of the "founding fathers" were Christians. So what? I'm really tired of the "founding fathers" argument. Did the founding fathers want us to have female suffrage? Civil rights? Gay marriage? Space exploration? Laws against child labor? Social welfare? I don't give a flip what the "founding fathers" wanted. Don't see why I should, either. Fundies seem intent on granting them some sort of divinely wise status - but I sure as heck don't.
Now you and others want to take those very rights away from Christian.
What rights? Christian fundamentalists don't have the right to use the government to teach fundamentalist religious opinions to someone else's kids - kids whose parents may have entirely different religious beliefs. That's called "establishment of religion", because it means that the government is encouraging the teaching of one particular religious view - "establishment" means giving official recognition, privilege or sanction to.
Sorry, separation Church-State happened AFTER the founding fathers failed in forming a type of Christian Iranian Teocracy. Please, revise the constitution. Besides, Protestant(what you call "Christian" in your post)discriminates, sliptongue I guess, discriminates against Catholics, Orthodoxs and many types of non-denominals. YES, there is discrimination.
I seem to have sparked a FSTDT fad with my "Treaty of Tripoli, bitch" line...
It's applicable so often ...
Matilde, Joey444, others, could you be more careful with spelling? It does not make you look intelligent, and the folks at conservative forums take notice.
I seem to have sparked a FSTDT fad with my "Treaty of Tripoli, bitch" line...
It's applicable so often ...
I don't mind, I was just commenting.
See, the thing is, what we're talking about is your freedom. Rather than the people's freedom. If I were tied up in your basement surrounded by all the porn you and your family made when you were a kid then you'd be free to turn me over and rape me up the ass.
If I were tied up in your basement surrounded by all the porn you and your family made when you were a kid then you'd be free to turn me over and rape me up the ass.
This is playing with words. It's using the word "free" in the sense of "nobody's there to stop you" as opposed to "permitted under the law". A person with a gun (to use a more tasteful, and hopefully more coherent example) is "free" to take your wallet, but he's not free under the law to do so.
How does it go? Trip of Bitcholi, eaty? No. Ah, that's it! Treaty of Tripoli, bitch!
Ahhh, JohnR7 always brings a smile to my face for all the wrong reasons.
Sorry, but I have the freedom to be Catholic or Buddist and not to pray your Baptist prayers, and I have my right to pray mines. The state protects both us, why should YOUR prays be promoted in high-school, by authority figures such as teachers, and mine should be restricted to private?. Or just imagine the other way round. Please, don´t be that selfish.
Perhaps Johnr7 need to be reminded of the first amendment ...
The First Amendment states:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof
and just bit of more bad nws for Johnny boy
many of the Founders were hardly Christians. There were several Deists, most prominent among them Thomas Jefferson. Deism rejected formal or organized religion, including Christianity; it taught that people should depend on human reasoning, not revealed truths, to discern what is true in the world. Deism rejected the divinity of Jesus and ascribed his miracles and resurrection to "mysticisms, fancies and falsehoods" (Jefferson's words).
Jefferson was alway one of my favoroits...
Hey jonny did you ever read the letter Thomas Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptist
"Believing that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their Legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State." -- Thomas Jefferson to Danbury Baptists, 1802.
Once again John7 you are wrong !!!!
Just a heads up[ Johnny that CPU of yours can be used for many other things other than posting your fundie nonsense ,you can use it t to investigate facts and retrieve all kind of interesting and true stories about history .Just a little bit effort and research and you Wouldn't t be posting so much bull shit and lies ...
But, llDayo, Jefferson made numerous references to God in his writings! *Obviously* this proves he was a Christian!
What's that? Deism? No, never heard of it. =P
"Now you and others want to take those very rights away from Christian."
Establishing a christian tyranny that takes away the rights of other religions is not a right. First Amendment states government should not grant special status to any particular religion or take away equal rights from any particular religion.
"The rights that many people have died to give us and that Jefferson worked hard to secure for us."
[font=bookman old style]"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature." -Thomas Jefferson[/font]
I don't think a christian theocracy for a free nation is what Jefferson had in mind.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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