NeoMatrix #fundie

NeoMatrix #fundie fstdt.com

What is hilarious about this is that Donald Trump actually kinda has a point here. Most military servicemen are right-wing fanatics who love Trump and would follow his orders without question, even if they were blatantly illegal. I could see the majority of them gladly torturing innocents if he told them too.

And that's what makes Trump so scary.

(Later Post)

You think that they'd care? Right-wingers and Christians never really cared about the Constitution, despite how much they blabber on about it. It's a scrap of paper to be discarded when it becomes inconvenient.

Do you seriously think that a right-wing US serviceman would think twice if he got the chance to murder an innocent Hispanic or Muslim person? Of course not. He would be drooling at the chance to shoot dem libruhls and sand niggas.

42 comments

old comment by NeoMatrix

It's true though. Two words: Chris Kyle. There's a reason he's considered a hero to millions of servicemen, and even had a movie made about him - he murdered lots of foreigners and brown people. If he were alive (and I'm glad he isn't), he'd be giving celebrity endorsements to people like Trump in a heartbeat. Or for an even better view, go to literally any gun show; right winger US soldiers are drawn to them like flies to carrion.

You might ask why they haven't done that yet if most of them want to. Well, it's because the US military so far has had leaders who would officially forbid it for moral and legal reasons. Soldiers had no choice but to obey. Unfortunately, someone like Trump or Cruz isn't so keen on either morality or legality.

And right-wingers and Christians don't care about the US Constitution in the slightest. The last eight fucking years should've made that fact blatantly obvious to any human being with a functional brain.

TLDR, why is this fundie?

old comment by Crazed Pseudo-Intellectual

I understand (to a point) the criticism of war, violence, and killing. I agree that sometimes the "heroes" of war are not better than the average serviceman. However, PLEASE do not insult members of the military. There are some bad ones in there and there are some flaws in military culture, but it is important to support serviceman, who work very hard.

As to the allegation that right-wingers and Christians do not care about the Constitution: 1)plenty of Democrats are Christian. 2) I think Christians are irrational, but plenty of Christians act intelligently and morally in other contexts. 3) Scalia cared about the Constitution, he just interpreted it too literally for my liking and was also an asshole in other contexts. 4) Christians and right-wingers are not only defined by the last eight years. They were once different and they can change.

old comment by Anon-e-moose

Damage Limitation much, NeoNazi?

@Crazed Pseudo-Intellectual

"1)plenty of Democrats are Christian"

Such as Hillary Clinton.

"2) I think Christians are irrational, but"

...the devout Southern Baptist but pre-1954 Pledge of Allegiance-using Jimmy Carter. Thus not all Christians are fundie. Your argument is valid.

"3) Scalia cared about the Constitution, he just interpreted it too literally for my liking and was also an asshole in other contexts."

...and now Scabbia is extinct. That 26th June SCOTUS decision isn't, though, o right-wingers!

"4) Christians and right-wingers are not only defined by the last eight years."

Timothy McVeigh. Eric Robert Rudolph. Yet, Oliver Stone & Bruce Springsteen are Vietnam veterans, but are the diametric opposite of what NeoNazi's trying to backpedal from right now.

5) ?????

6) That's why it's fundie, NeoNazi. That's why it's quoted on FSTDT. That's why you FAIL.

old comment by NeoMatrix

@Insult to Rocks
Oh, I know that. Hell, John McCain of all people is strongly against torture and even criticized Trump for it. However, he was only against it because he himself was tortured by the NVA in Vietnam. I doubt he would be against torture if he hadn't been subjected to brutality and suffering himself, since he's right-wing. And other people disapprove of torture in the military because they're smart enough to realize that torture is completely ineffectual for actually gaining information, and not because of any moral problems with it. They're the smart ones though.

See, it's not so much that I'm against war or the military (especially for a good cause), but I'm against war without standards. And the thing is, being right-wing kinda comes with the territory - the political views of the US armed forces is disproportionately right-wing. I mean, I've already given you Chris Kyle as the perfect example.

Again, I don't see why this is fundie. I know most people here would agree with me that war needs to be conducted with standards. I mean, is it suddenly fundie to want wars fought without war crimes happening because of crazy Republicans every five minutes?

old comment by eonmode

>so, every, single person in the military is a mass murdering sociopath with no regard for morality, is that what you are saying?

There are generally two types of people who join the military: those who join out of economic necessity and those who join out of 'patriotism.'

The former are to be pitied, but only to a point. Most of them join because it's the only way they can afford to go to college. So they sign on to fight for the empire in exchange for subsistence. I view them as essentially mercenaries. If the USA had a real public education system like Germany or France has, these people would probably never join up.

The latter are the Chris Kyle types. They join because they want to kill brown people. They have bumper stickers on their oversized pickup trucks that say "Kick Their Ass, Take Their Gas." They are rank and file Christofascists.

The only veterans for whom I have any respect are the people who ended up being conscripted and don't wish military service on anyone else -- many (but by no means all) Vietnam veterans fall under this category.

old comment by eonmode

>do you think an enemy combatant will won't kill a US solider just because said US soldier said he would kill him? it sucks but but enemy soldiers are comparably morally acceptable to kill then civilians as they are trying to kill you too.

I'm saying there should be no US soldiers. The US military should be disbanded, the US should become part of the International Criminal Court, and the people who tortured and assassinated others should be tried and convicted for war crimes all the way up the ladder, from the lowest Pfc to the President.

The money we save on the military could be used for goodwill foreign aid and domestic expansion of public education, universal health care, and green jobs programs.

@Insult to Rocks

In the US the military is the employer of last resort for many people. If the US had a real public works program, so many of these people could do exactly what they're good at in a context that DOESN'T support imperialism, assassinations, torture, and murder of non-combatants.

old comment by NeoMatrix

@Insult to Rocks
"Do you seriously think that war crimes can be avoided simply by only enlisting liberals?"
Well, it wouldn't be perfect of course, but having more liberals would massively reduce the number of war crimes I'm sure. It's a start. And Republicans/conservatives aren't as much responsible for war crimes as they are responsible for the CULTURE than leads to war crimes - fascist and militaristic cultures in particular are among the most guilty of war crimes throughout modern history due to their strong Christian values.

"Do you that every time a soldier kills a civilian, it's purposeful?"
That's not a war crime, as far as I know. It's intentional killing of civilians that's a war crime, and that's what I'm talking about here. Obviously the degree of guilt relies on if the unfortunate deaths were intentional or collateral.

(I'll talk further in the morning, it's late here)

old comment by Skybison

Neomatrix, have you ever meet a single person who is in the military? Anyone at all? Do you personally know anyone who has right wing views?

I ask because you are a bigot. Yes, a bigot. I don`t know what the specific term is for someone who is bigoted over political opinions or line of work, but that`s you. You are stereotyping anyone and everyone who is different from you as completely evil and subhuman. You are a bigot.

You have no idea what you are talking about either. People with military experience have actually often been more diplomatic in their views, since they know what it`s like, while most of the militaristic hawks have never served.

old comment by The Mimic Octopus

>NeoMatrix:
"However, he was only against it because he himself was tortured by the NVA in Vietnam. I doubt he would be against torture if he hadn't been subjected to brutality and suffering himself"
So you are opposed to learning from experience? Well, I guess that explains a lot.

"Also, when did you suddenly get a liking for Americans? I thought you were British."
Not that I like Anon-e-Moose, and I must agree that his patriotism among his many annoying traits, that comes across as fairly chauvinistic.

>eonmode:
"imperialistic"
Groan!
Imperialism is like Fascism and Socialism: A term thrown around so much as a shortcut for "policy I dislike" that it lost all meaning in colloquial use.
And if we do nothing, idiots like you will accuse of being selfish racists who do not care for foreigners. Whatever the powers that be do, you will find a way to declare them evil.

"I'm saying there should be no US soldiers. The US military should be disbanded"
One cannot do away with a military entirely, because evil will always exist, at least as long as Humanity is still comprised of Homo sapiens, and there will always be those who are willing to wage war against Humanity, whose goals cannot be accepted, who would never be swayed by civil disobedience, against whom one must stand up and fight - not as a follower of an ideology, not as a citizen of a nation, not as a believer of a religion, but as a human being. Of course, military action is not THE Solution, but it must be part of the solution, for they are performing atrocities against countless humans and Humanity itself right now, and by the time political actions bring them down, they will have committed many more.

Many Wehrmacht soldiers during the "Gather all the village Jews in one place and shoot them" phase of the Holocaust were only capable of doing so under extremely scary rationalistion that twisted murder into a coup de grâce, and the generation who had been young adults during the Third Reich very frequently suffered from psychological issues post-war. Tht was in a country which at the time was far more militaristic, azthoritarian and deceived by demagogy than the USA ever were, against an "enemy" where the roots of hatred ran far, far deeper than post-9/11 islamophobia. No, "All US soldiers are sadistic psychopaths who will be 'just following orders' with demonic enthusiasm if Führer Trump orders them to" is not plausible at all.
Also, if I remember correctly, ethnic minorities are overrepresented within the US military - obviously, they will eagerly vow undying loyalty to Donald "All Mexicans are rapists" "The Ku Klux Klan thinks I should tone down my rhetorics" Trump.

old comment by DJ

While NeoMatrix, as usual, generalizes far, far too much about how sociopathic some members of the military are, I think it's important to not veer too far into blind worship of soldiers either.

As was mentioned already, Chris Kyle was considered a hero to many and, as far as I know, his attitude and conduct didn't raise any red flags to other soldiers despite him being a racist psychopath. This leads me to believe he either hid it very, very well or that kind of attitude is common enough to not give anyone pause.

There's also the endemic level of sexual assault faced by (primarily) female soldiers. These assaults come from their fellow soldiers and are covered up (both directly and indirectly via social pressure towards victims who report their assaults) by an even wider circle of military personnel.

old comment by eonmode

@neondux & @The Mimic Octopus

So because there will always be a military, I shouldn't speak out or agitate against it? People need to be held accountable for their war crimes. And guess what? The US is directly or indirectly responsible for a great number of war crimes. The US is responsible for much of the geopolitical conflict in the world. US imperialism is REAL. The US has 662 military bases located in 38 sovereign nations. The US has held up dictators and crushed democratic revolutions. The US kidnaps people in the dead of night, puts them on airplanes, and flies them to those remote military bases to torture them and hold them for months, so that even their families don't know where they are. The US targets people for assassination by using flying robots that shoot missiles from hundreds of miles away. Sometimes they hit their target, and sometimes they don't care if it hits the target. This is against international law. The people responsible need to be prosecuted and punished.

If you're going to pull the whole "they hate it if the US does something, they hate it if the US does nothing" card when arguing foreign intervention, your argument lacks nuance (just like US foreign policy!)

I have a very simple and elegant solution to that: stop backing autocrats, even if US interests are at stake. Stop supporting governments who use torture and assassination as instruments of control. Stop spending money on fighter planes and give more money in foreign aid. And when you do that, don't give it to states like Pakistan, Israel, or Egypt who just spend it on the military to oppress their own citizens.

@Crazed Pseudo-Intellectual

Like I said, my pity only extends so far. We don't have a conscript military anymore. Whatever one's motivations for signing up, they are still contributing to the war machine. Your comment reminds me of the constant "Support the Troops (TM), even if you don't support the war" platitude that was being thrown around during the reign of Bush/Cheney.

old comment by nazani14

This is ridiculous, another case of armchair warriors baselessly conjecturing about the armed forces. Learning not to follow unlawful orders is part of basic training. We've come a long way since the My Lai massacre, and the cases of soldiers killing civilians are more shocking because they're so rare. Soldiers know how to find administrative ways to get rid of detested or incompetent officers - it's called "death by Skillcraft" (the brand of pen used.)

Whites on active duty: 69%
Non-Whites are underrepresented in the National Guard, the Navy, and (slightly) among officers.
Women are 16% of the armed forces.
Almost 1/2 of those on active duty are under 25 years old.
Almost 1/5th of enlisted members have some sort of college degree. 80% of officers have a BA or better.
Almost half military members are married, and over 40% have children.

Put that all together, use your common sense knowledge about the groups referenced, like the increased liberalism of the under-25s, and no, there is no recipe for the military to turn into Nazis. I won't deny that you can get individual units where right-wingers can dominate, but remember, everyone gets shuffled to new units every 3 years or so. For every Chris Kyle, there's an interracial family, a Wiccan chaplain, or a gay officer.

NeoMatrix #fundie fstdt.com

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