Rainer Wendt #fundie

Rainer Wendt #fundie freerepublic.com

[A Muslim group in Germany is distributing free copies of the Koran. Their goal is "a Koran in every house".]

A spokesperson for the Berlin branch of the BfV [the German intelligence agency] told Die Welt that "the objective of this campaign is to help bring those who are interested into contact with the Salafist scene in order to influence them in the context of their extremist political ideologies."

Although not everyone who takes a Koran into their home will convert to Islam, German authorities say Abou-Nagie's Project "Read!" is a establishing a breeding ground for anti-constitutional ideas[...]

The head of the German Police Union (DPolG), Rainer Wendt, has told the Hamburg-based Bild newspaper that he is concerned about the presence of clandestine Islamic sleeper cells made up of Muslim immigrants and converts in Germany. He has called for the recruitment of undercover agents to infiltrate the Islamic environment. It is the "only way to monitor the scene," Wendt said.

"Radical Islamists live everywhere and nowhere in Germany. One cannot rule out that that nice young man from next door, who brings grandma her fresh bread every morning, is not in fact an Islamic sleeper and terrorist," Wendt warned.

52 comments

old comment by toby

Hey,

I am from Germany and I am totally disgusted by how my country(wo)men freak out about this. They treat the Qu'ran as this dangerous book that turns anyone who reads it into a raging terrorist.

At the same time, in my home town Trier, half a million people are flocking into the city to see the "Holy Tunic", the piece of cloth that Jesus allegedly wore until seconds before he was crucified.
Our local culture centre put up a exhibit which has a name that runs along the lines of "Fetish in art, religion and consume culture". The local churches put pressure on the companies funding the exhibit and made the Sparkasse (a big Germany-based bank) withdraw 15.000 (almost 20.000 $).

People in this country treat Islam as the single most biggest threat to Germany and its constitution; our Secretary of the Interior, on his first day in office, said "Islam is not a part of Germany", and now refuses to further discuss the topic despite the current events.

I am too disgusted to go on now, but feel free to ask any questions if you want any more insights in this. I will check this thread regularly and try to answer asap.

Toby

old comment by demodocos

I'm from Germany, too, and I find the comments from some of our politicians regarding this issue far more horrifying than some Muslims distributing free books in our pedestrian areas. To be fair, the Salafists are a bunch of crazy assholes dedicated to some of the worst, inhumane ideas humanity has ever come up with, but giving away copies of the Qur'an is not one of them. It's like being upset about the Westboro Baptist Church offering free Bibles to everyone.

So no, it's not fundie - and it's hardly racist either since the surveillance of this group is justified through different context (the 9/11 hijackers for example went to a Salafist mosque in Hamburg).

The comments on Freerepublic on the other hand...

old comment by Extraintrovert

This isn't fundie at all. Indeed, it belongs right in RSTDT because SOMEHOW people are equating handing out free books with fostering terrorist cells, which is absurd on the face of it. The very fact that the German police, with an apparent straight face, are perpetuating such rampant and dangerous paranoia is disgusting and stupid.

It's good to be reminded, amongst all the examples from the USA, that European nations have a far longer history of horrifying bigotry, and that it hasn't moved very far at all.

@1395375
That's bullshit. If they were really concerned about "anyone" being a potential threat then they would monitor everyone, not focus on a religious minority. After all, Anders Breivik wasn't Muslim.

@Brendan Rizzo
But is isn't fundamentalists. It's people handing out books. Yes, the books are full of bullshit and so are the people handing them out, but they aren't even forcing anyone to read them and they're hardly worthy of being infiltrated by police. This type of reactionary fear helps religious fundamentalism far more than it hurts it, by spreading fear, distrust and the idea that other religions are inherently inferior to one's own.

old comment by checkmate

@#1395370

Considering Germany is an ultra politically correct country, I presume that the concerns are not unfounded.

Correct!

The Germans have stated very clearly that the problem is not the Koran. That's fine, no problem. It's the people who are passing out the Koran, the Salafists. These people make the Westboro Baptist Church look like the Peace Corps. They are a very real danger.

The Korans are being passed out with a straight message: convert to Islam or go to Hell. Sharia or Hell. Punishment for all non-Muslims. This isn't a prejudice, this is real.

The funny part is that the Korans are German translations. In traditional Islam it is *strictly* forbidden to print translations of the Arabic. A pious Musilim believes that God dictated the Koran to Muhammad word for word in Arabic. Any translation is automatically faulty and therfore heresy.

Looks like the Salafists will be on their way to Hell along with the infidels. :-)

It should be added that Salafist members have already been sending death threats to German journalists who have made critical comments about them and their actions.

Btw, I've owned a Koran (in Arabic) for 25 years. I bought it in a mosque in Istanbul. I'm not a Muslim yet.

old comment by breakerslion

"The fate of the world rests with the clash
between ~~the atheism of Moscow~~ Radical Islam and the Christian spirit throughout other parts of the world."

"Are you now, or have you ever been ~~a Communist~~ an Islamist?"

Joseph P. McCarthy, Revised Standard Version.

"One cannot rule out that that nice young man from next door, who brings grandma her fresh bread every morning, is not in fact an Islamic sleeper and terrorist," Wendt warned.

One never can rule out fill-in-the-blank, however that's called guilt by accusation.

How about you, Mr. Wendt? If that's even your real name.... I think you protest too much. Just the sort of behavior I'd expect from a very clever sleeper. Perhaps you should come with us.

SEE HOW THAT WORKS ASSHOLE?

old comment by checkmate

@#1395688

No it's not. Helllooo? WTH? Can you cite a reference for this?

Quoting from memory what I learned from an expert during Arabic lessons at the university over 20 years ago.

However, a quick look at that thing called the internet shows I'm not totally wrong: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran_translations

Translation of the Qur'an has always been a problematic and difficult issue in Islamic theology. Since Muslims revere the Qur'an as miraculous and inimitable (i'jaz al-Qur'an), they argue that the Qur'anic text cannot be reproduced in another language or form. ...

According to modern Islamic theology, the Qur'an is a revelation very specifically in Arabic, and so it should only be recited in the Arabic language. Translations into other languages are necessarily the work of humans and so, according to Muslims, no longer possess the uniquely sacred character of the Arabic original. Since these translations necessarily subtly change the meaning, they are often called "interpretations."

Granted, Wikipedia isn't exactly a fount of accuracy, but it sounds like I wasn't far off.

Please remember, I said "traditional" Islam, meaning "fundamental". The Salafists are fundamentalists, not moderates. In that light, I stand by my statement made above. Many Muslims know much less of the Koran than Christians know of the Bible. Non-Arabic speakers often just learn a few Arabic phrases by heart, including the Muslim creed la ila ... and rely on oral explanations.

such an absurd claim

Hmm, perhaps a little research would be prudent next time before you absurdly claim a claim is absurd. ;-)

old comment by demodocos

Okay, just to clarify this for everyone here:

Salafists are ~not~ moderate Muslims.

'Salafi' literally means 'predecessors' or 'ancestor', they ~are~ fundamentalist Muslims, the group that tries to justify holy wars, death penalty for apostasy, misogyny, homophobia and has produced terrorists like the 9/11 hijackers. Go, look them up.

I really hate it when people talk about Muslims as if they all wanted to make everyone live under Sharia law, but these ~are~ the folks that give all Muslims a bad name by doing exactly that. And if you consider Wendt's statements in the light of this, it becomes clear that he wants to put Salafists under surveillance because of the incompatibility of their religious views with democratic values, ~not~ because they distribute the Qur'an.

Basically, what happened was that some fundamentalist Muslims started a large-scale, completely legal PR action in Germany and some politicians were asked for their opinion on these folks. The worst part about this story is the news coverage done by the German tabloid the "Bild Zeitung".

That said, Wendt ~does~ come over as a huge asshole for putting all young Muslims under general suspicion, but he does this ~every~ time. Suspecting entire populations of wrongdoing simply seems to be part of his job as head of Germany's Police Union and he does it for non-Muslims as well, so it's probably not racist.

This quote never should have made it on FSTDT.

old comment by

@ checkmate

Now, now...

In traditional Islam it is *strictly* forbidden to print translations of the Arabic.

...isn't quite the same as:

Translation of the Qur'an has always been a problematic and difficult issue in Islamic theology. Since Muslims revere the Qur'an as miraculous and inimitable (i'jaz al-Qur'an), they argue that the Qur'anic text cannot be reproduced in another language or form. ...

According to modern Islamic theology, the Qur'an is a revelation very specifically in Arabic, and so it should only be recited in the Arabic language. Translations into other languages are necessarily the work of humans and so, according to Muslims, no longer possess the uniquely sacred character of the Arabic original. Since these translations necessarily subtly change the meaning, they are often called "interpretations."

...is it? They say that it cannot (doesn't say "must not", as per your fatwa :P ) be translated accurately, because it would have to be a mortal (and not God, ahem) who would have to decide on the equivalent poetic expression/analogy/metaphor in the language of translation, and hence, may end up making an incorrect assumption. Farther ahead, it is recommended that the recitation should be done in original Arabic, which is again not quite as "*strictly* forbidden", as you put it earlier.

Please remember, I said "traditional" Islam, meaning "fundamental". The Salafists are fundamentalists, not moderates.

Wikipedia about "Salafi":

The term has been in use since the middle ages but today refers especially to a follower of a modern Sunni Islamic movement known as the Salafiyyah, which is related to or includes Wahhabism, so that the two terms are sometimes erroneously viewed as synonymous.

Nonetheless, even if an extremist fringe does hold such a belief, it has got nothing to do with the mainstream Islamic tradition (which actively encourages putting the Quran in various languages to make it more accessible), or even conservative Islamic values.

Hmm, perhaps a little research would be prudent next time before you absurdly claim a claim is absurd. ;-)

[smug] I agree completely, a little research is always prudent before claiming the absurdity of a claim. [/smug]

old comment by Brendan Rizzo

So, is no one here even slightly worried about the rise of Islamic fundamentalism in Europe? I'm not saying that they're gonna take over or anything, but I don't think the Europeans truly understand the danger of the situation. I would support Mr. Wendt now and I also would if it were a Christian group distributing Bibles, because I am an American. My country is utterly overrun by fundies. As far as I can tell, they are very rare in Europe, but it won't stay that way if nothing is done about these people. Extremists proselytizing in the streets is merely the beginning. Next thing you know they'll be demanding that they use their theocratic law instead of the civil law (a demand to which Britain has already, in all insanity, agreed) demand that their creation story be taught in public schools, deny evolution and global warming (and, since these are fundamentalist Muslims, most likely also heliocentrism and the shape of the Earth) and worst of all, promote racism, sexism (especially the sexism) homophobia, and laissez-faire capitalism. All these things have been done by Christian American fundies, because Americans did nothing to stop them. Instead, we just let them proliferate under the guise of "religious freedom". If Europe ever gets to that point, the fundies will never leave. Despite the best efforts of rational Americans, our fundies have only gotten more extreme. Absolutely nothing was able to stop Bush and now the Tea Party from having so much power. No amount of education can do anything. Our children, our children's children, and our children's children's children will all live in a world where fundies control America. We'll have the extremist Teabaggers until the day the Earth falls into the Sun. Europeans would probably have it even worse because not only would Muslim fundamentalists be an affront to all the values of the Enlightenment, but your current right-wingers would step their racism up to eleven and be just as big an affront. So in case I haven't made myself sufficiently clear, don't yield even a centimeter to the fundies, Europe. This is for your own good. It would suck if the time from about 1950 or so to the present turned out to be a golden age which you never again achieve because of a lack of standing up to religious extremists.

old comment by Mister Spak

@checkmate:

Muslims have no problem translating the koran, except that they deny the result is a koran.

A koran can only exist in Arabic because it's a kind of projection of the Golden Koran in heaven. A translation in another langauge is merely ink and paper.

It's sort of a backards version of christian fundies who claim any and all translations of the bible are actually the word of god, due to the translators being guided by the holy spirit(translators from a different kind of christian, not being real christians, do not produce actual word of god translations, and these translations are not to be trusted).

@Brendan Rizzo:

"Deny . . global warming . . and promote laissez-faire capitalism"

These two things are peculiar to how fundies took control of America, not an unavoidable feature of religious mind rot. Current muslim fundies seem inclined to oppose laissez-faire capitalism as haram, and present global warming as what happens when you let infidels run the world.

But they don't put a lot of energy into either of these issues, they're more concerned with how eating bacon causes drug addiction, women wearing tiny bikinis and homosexuality.

old comment by Amadaun

@checkmate: Okay, most of the problems have been addressed by other people, but I think you had better know this. 'Traditional' and 'fundamentalist' Islam are basically as completely freaking opposite as you can get within the set 'religious Muslims.'

Traditional Islam is in the hands of scholars. It is widely disseminated to and participated in by the people and accessible through various modes such as the Friday prayer, assorted pilgrimages including the big one, asking your local qualified scholar for clarification on religious questions. But men who spend their lives studying a huge body of tradition designed to make the shari'a comprehensible and suitable to your people's way of life control it. Generally speaking, they keep it sane. These men are generally the smartest people around, because that's who you send to study the law.

Often they are corrupt. Occasionally they use this position for a selfish aim broader than mere money. But generally this system spreads authority around in such a pattern as to maintain a status quo that is pretty healthy, and capable of adapting to new circumstances. (In different ways according to the Sufi and Shii legal traditions, but that's another can of worms.)

This is a largely extinct system now, although vestiges remain. The monopoly of power modern governments demand and the idea of law codes as things that are to be followed to the letter, the drain of the best and brightest into universities and productive professions, the decline of military power in the mideast; a hundred factors have outmoded traditional Islam.

old comment by Amadaun

Fundamentalist Islam, on the other hand, is fundamentalism. This means, literally, that it looks directly and immediately to the text. The text is brutal. The text was designed for running a loose confederation of warrior tribes and a single smallish trade city in a desert, what part of it concerned governance at all. It has never been suitable for city people other than merchants, or for farmers, and that's just the beginning of the problems. Traditional Islam had a thousand ways of making sure practically no one's hands were ever cut off on the word of the ulama.

(It was rather more common in some locations to happen on the word of the local ruler, but that was another law code entirely, and the one generally brought to bear in criminal contexts--part of the way shari'a was able to keep itself clean, that it was primarily turned to to regulate fair trade, and family affairs, and other things for which people would willingly submit themselves to arbitration, since the learned generally did not employ people to drag miscreants before them and enforce their rulings.)

Fundamentalist Islam is afraid and angry and uneducated. It is perfectly willing to cut hands off. It does not want to maintain a stable society. It wants change, and so it has very little restraint. It also has frequently very little use for tradition it often has no idea ever existed. It is looking back to what it feels are the fundamentals, and frequently the people looking are stupid, have a pronounced agenda, or both.

Don't ever confuse the traditional and the fundamentalist, even if the latter thinks they're continuing in the path of the former. Traditional Islam was remarkably civilized for the world it existed in. Fundamentalist Islam would be quite brutal even then.

All things in context.

Rainer Wendt #fundie freerepublic.com

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