A change in allele frequencies is definately NOT evolution. What that kind of change does is allow you to breed all different kinds of dogs. But you'll never end up with anything except a dog. If you really want to prove me wrong, then reference me to a dog breeder that's bred anything except a dog. They all have the same basic body plan, and they aren't about to change into anything new. In fact, the more you selectively breed a type, the worse off it is. Dogs are more susceptible to diseases, they have body deformations (which in some cases is kind of cute, but my dog has to blow snot out of its face every five seconds because its face is flat).
What you want is for NEW genes to be pushed into the gene pool. Simply reshuffling existing alleles isn't going to help. Try it with a deck of cards. Keep reshuffling the deck and dealing hands of three. You can get all sorts of different combinations, but eventually you run out of unique combinations, unless you can throw in a card that's never been seen.
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"purebred" dogs are just the result of inbreeding. Multiple recessibve traits stacked ten deep. Like Irish Farmer, they're the result of multi-generational incest. Since the breed traits are selected by the breeder it's artificial selection, not natural selection.
This is not the result of the random factors introduced with successive generations of minor mutationsthat cause a diversification of the gene pool, not an unnatural concentration.
They all have the same basic body plan
Hmmm... Well most mammals have the same kind of interbal organs, we got necks, a nose, 2 eyes, 2 "front limbs" to "back limbs", roughly the same build up in parts of the skeleton (the individual parts, not the whole. Just check out the "hand" of a whale, human and bear and you'll be suprised how much the bone structure is alike).
So now that we know that mammals are pretty much alike physically, we can state that humans are nothing but dogs. Or cats, depending on whether you are a dog or cat person. Have a nice day.
If you want to succeed in dog breeding it's all about, Mutation, Mutation, Mutation!
And I agree with you can't compare a deck of cards to evolution, that's wrong on many levels. And just because you don't get it or can't do it doenst' mean diddly squat.
"What you want is for NEW genes to be pushed into the gene pool. Simply reshuffling existing alleles isn't going to help."
Apes and our ape-like ancestors had an anchor-point at the top of the skull which extended to the sides to give them a strong jaw. A mutation occurred that made it lose this anchor-point thus allowing our skulls to increase in size, along with our brains - enter: humans. They lost a characteristic rather than gain it, to evolve into a new species. NEW genes aren't always necessary.
And yeah, he also forgot about mutation. Even other creo's have heard of that.
So, a change in the DNA is not evolution?, to adapt to environment is not evolution?. Well, in which terms can we discuss with these guys?
This is just another jackass Fundie who doesn't understand that evolution (natural mutations and natural selection) takes a long time. Usually, the greater the differences, the longer it takes.
Long ago, IF, man started artificially selecting wolves with traits they felt would be desireable. These wolves were the root stock of domestic dogs. Enough differences were collected in the in the gene pool of this stock that they are classified as a separate species.
Dog breeders have never tried to breed anything but a dog. Biologists have certainly bred separate strains of fruit flies that are incapable of breeding with each other even though they are both descended from the same stock. There are ethical issues with carrying such experiments too far and deliberately breeding new species just to prove a point to creationists.
The card thing is a bad analogy. Cards don't keep getting duplicated by a defective copy machine that can distort or break up the image or add things that weren't in the original. 97% of our genome is useless garbage that was put there and either superceded, didn't work or was rendered ineffective by later mistakes. The presence of similarly placed strings of useless garbage in the genomes of different animals is one of the best arguments for evolution.
Cards that are sentient .. Farmer, you DO realize that Alice in Wonderland was all about drugs, right?
Aside from that, everything's been said. Except, moog, could that possibly have been ... pooh?
Onyx, we do have to allow that to this person, breeding a dog to such a point that it expresses mucus through its nose continuously in order to breath without chocking, is cute. I think Farmer is bushbaby's consultant on torture for "enemy combatants ".
Um, that card analogy is really, really bad. There's really only four materials that compose our DNA (adenine, cytosine, guanine and thymine) quite a bit less than the number of cards in a deck. Not to mention the fact that there's really no limit to the number of the above chemicals that can appear in DNA, much more than a simply three card hand. NOt to mention that unlike in cards, you can have more than one of the same element/card.
So now that we know that mammals are pretty much alike physically, we can state that humans are nothing but dogs. Or cats, depending on whether you are a dog or cat person. Have a nice day.
I want to be a cat! Or a bear, if possible.
A change in allele frequencies is definately NOT evolution.
It is the very definition of evolution, you twit.
But you'll never end up with anything except a dog.
In the short term, you are correct. But little changes add up over time.
In fact, the more you selectively breed a type, the worse off it is.
That's because of inbreeding and the resulting lack of genetic diversity.
What you want is for NEW genes to be pushed into the gene pool.
Happens constantly. Most of the new ones fail. Some don't.
A change in allele frequencies is definately NOT evolution.
A change in allele frequencies is the definition of evolution, you twit!
What that kind of change does is allow you to breed all different kinds of dogs.
Emphasis on "you." You will only ever be able to breed different kinds of dogs. Those small changes that create different breeds of dogs will, if added up over a sufficiently long period of time, produce an animal that is nothing like a dog as we know it. You, however, will not live long enough to see that happen.
But you'll never end up with anything except a dog.
Not in your lifetime, no. In your lifetime, you'll only see a couple generations, which isn't enough time to get an animal that different in appearence from a dog.
If you really want to prove me wrong, then reference me to a dog breeder that's bred anything except a dog.
Again, dogs breed too slowly to create a different species within a single human's lifetime. I can reference you to some insect breeders who have produced a new species, though.
They all have the same basic body plan...
Sigh. Stupid spoiled people, always expecting everything to happen instantly.
Again, a radical change in body type will take more than the few generations you can observe within your lifetime. Rome wasn't built in a day, and humans didn't evolve in only a million years.
...and they aren't about to change into anything new.
Reminder: Populations evolve. Individuals will not change.
In fact, the more you selectively breed a type, the worse off it is. Dogs are more susceptible to diseases, they have body deformations...
Well, yes. In the wild, animals have to adapt to their environment, with the best adapted individuals producing the most offspring, thus making their genes (and traits) more common. A domesticated animal, on the other hand, is taken care of automatically. Domesticated animals are often bred based on whether they have traits that their human owners want them to have. That's not fully relevant to evolution.
...(which in some cases is kind of cute...
Ah, there you go. They were bred by humans for traits humans thought were cute.
...but my dog has to blow snot out of its face every five seconds because its face is flat).
Again, that's not really relevant to evolution.
Domesticated animals are selectively bred for traits their human owners want them to have. In the wild, animals are "selectively" bred for traits that allow them to better adapt to their environment.
In a sense, both are evolution. However, in the domesticated dog's environment, the "adaptive" traits that are selected for are cuteness.
What you want is for NEW genes to be pushed into the gene pool.
Mutations.
A duplication generates a copy of an existing gene. Since it's redundant and not necessary, it can mutate freely and may end up performing a useful function.
Simply reshuffling existing alleles isn't going to help.
No shit, Sherlock.
Try it with a deck of cards. Keep reshuffling the deck and dealing hands of three. You can get all sorts of different combinations, but eventually you run out of unique combinations, unless you can throw in a card that's never been seen.
Yep. Now throw in a card that's never been seen, via a mutation. It happens, you know.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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