Emily #fundie

Emily #fundie answers.yahoo.com

Why do scientists do this?
Why do they want evidence, have the Bible, deny it, and try to come up with their own evidence?

116 comments

old comment by Anon-e-moose

"Why do scientists do this?
Why do they want evidence, have the Bible, deny it, and try to come up with their own evidence?"

There's two answers to that question:

1- Facts, backed up with evidence, expands human knowledge. It's the reason why you're living in the clean, modern world you're in today; all mod cons, vehicles to take you from A to B, and so on. If you don't like all the benefits that science has offered to you, go leave all that (even your modern clothing too), and go and live in a cave, wearing only animal furs, shivering (no fire, naughty! Making such is an application of science too). Even that computer you're using, that's as a result of science. Why are you using it?

If scientific advancement, and increased knowledge about our world and the universe it's in also results in your precious Holy Buy-bull being proved wrong, then tough titty, m'dear. That's the way the human advancement biscuit crumbles, I'm afraid.

2- Because they can.

old comment by coley

okay, His4Life, then tell me: who was the witness that wrote about the creation of the earth? who could have possibly authored this book? obviously it wasn't god because god is referred to in the third person. Adam couldn't have written it because there was no way that he would have been able to have witnessed the many many things created before he was created (you know, the earth, the sky, etc.) And nothing existed before god created it so who could have possibly written this book?

OH WAIT! I know.
A bunch of early Jews who didn't have science and wanted a way to explain things so they made this "god" character up off the top of their heads and said "voila! we know how it was done!"

old comment by Eden

@His4Life

So how do you know that the bible was written by god? After all everyone can claim his book was written (or inspired) by a divine entity (the hinduist Vedas for example claim also to be the product of divine inspiration, AFAIK the Quran claims to be also inspired by god (Allah) and I assume lots of other religions also have books that they claim to be inspired by gods)

And how should one interpret the numerous things in nature that contradict the bible (like, to name just a few examples, the method of producing goats with spotted fur (Genesis 30:37-39), the 2 stories of creation in genesis (which differ in their order in which things were created) or the existence of a mountain that is high enough to see all kingdopms of the world (Matt 4:8) (soemthing which could exist if the earth were flat...but not ona round earth, as, no matter how high the mountain is, the backside of the earth cannot be seen ;) ))

old comment by Anon-e-moose

@His4Life

"God is the author of the Bible"

So it was he who put pen to paper/fingers to keyboard and wrote/typed the whole thing himself, proofread (LOL. What about all the contradictions, flaws & inconsistencies?), and sent the manuscript/Word documents(s) to the printers, and got it out to the vendors - all by himself, hmmmm?

"even though He used human writers to convey the message"

If he needed humans to actually write said Bible, then so much for his so-called 'omnipotence' eh, His4Life? He can magic an entire universe, world & all the life on it in 6 days (which again puts his so-called 'omnipotence' under doubt; if he was infinitely powerful, why couldn't he do so in a matter of nanoseconds - or less?), but he can't create his own books?

But then, that only proves he isn't omnipotent, therefore he's an inferior being (and thus a contradiction to himself), ergo 'God' doesn't exist. QED. Because everyone here in FSTDT, yours truly, everyone else in the world - and even you, His4Life (unfortunately) - can do one thing that your so-called 'God' can't:

Exist.

So I'm afraid, just as with your argument that 'America is a Christian country' (and even that a 'Hell' exists) has been comprehensively destroyed, the fact that there's no Bibles available actually created by your so-called 'God', with 'written by God' on the cover, proves only one thing:

'God' doesn't exist.

Got any more 'arguments' you want destroying, His4Life? Psychological masochist, much? Because you clearly love being proved wrong.

old comment by His4Life

Why is it that Christians are the ones always being asked for evidence, while the atheists can just sit on their hands and not provide any evidence for their position? Where is the evidence for atheism?

As Christians, we have:

1) The empty tomb
2) Fulfilled prophecy, down to the EXACT DETAIL of historical events
3) Hundreds of historical accounts in the Bile that have been verified by objective, secular archaeological finds. For example, scientists found the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and Jericho. They were burnt to a crisp and they have no idea what happened to them. The atheists have to come up with lame stories like 'well, some volcanic shit covered the city,' even though there are NO volcanos in the area. And how do you explain the walls of Jericho miraculously toppling just as it is described in the Bible? We also have archaeological evidence for: Joseph from Genesis, King David, King Solomon, The Exodus, The Crossing of the Red Sea (egyptian wheels at the bottom of the red sea...hm, how'd they get there), Noah's ark, david's affair with Bathsheba, Goliath, the global flood, the babylonian captivity, Jesus, the early church andmany other stories from the Bible. I cant even list them all there are too manyl... looking it up for yourself!
3) Detailed medical evidence published in a peer review secular journal PROVING that Jesus died on the cross as reported in the gospels
4) The Case for Christ, by Lee Strobel
5) Evidence that Demands a Verdict, by Josh McDowell
6) Evidence from Creation and science proving that the earth is 6,000 years old as the Bible claims and that evolution is a FRAUD and a HOAX!!! created by Charles Darwin to justifyhis SINFUL lifesyyle.
7) Eyewitness accounts of everything Jesus did and said, as well as many other miraculous events in both the old and new testaments and reliable historical records from OUTSIDE of the Bible . such as Josepheus, Tactis, Eusebius, Pliny the Elder, Julius Africanus, and MANY MANY OTHER RELIABLE HISTORIANS!
8) Miracles, prophecy, and other VERIFIABLE gifts of the spirit that are demonstrated on a weekly basis in many churches.
9) Thousands and thousands of personal testimonies of people who have had an encounter with Jesus that transformed their lives. I was a fucking crackwhore living on the street before I met Apostle Davis and turned my life over to Christ. There are literally millions of stories like mine showing that Jesus is ALIVE AND WELL and able to help people who ask!!

Atheists, what do you have? Some volcanic rocks and a monkey skull? Has anyone's life ever been transformed (in a positive way) by atheism? Nope, didn't think so.

old comment by Antichrist

@ His4Life

1) The empty tomb
A hole in a rock? Really? Do you know how the "empty tomb" was found? Constantine's mother. Yeah, when the mother of a Roman Emperor tells you to find something, you pretty much better damn well find it.

2) Fulfilled prophecy, down to the EXACT DETAIL of historical events
All my life I've been told of this fulfilled prophecy. Please give the details, as nobody else has ever been able to.

3) Hundreds of historical accounts in the Bile that have been verified by objective, secular archaeological finds. For example, scientists found the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and Jericho. They were burnt to a crisp and they have no idea what happened to them. The atheists have to come up with lame stories like 'well, some volcanic shit covered the city,' even though there are NO volcanos in the area. And how do you explain the walls of Jericho miraculously toppling just as it is described in the Bible? We also have archaeological evidence for: Joseph from Genesis, King David, King Solomon, The Exodus, The Crossing of the Red Sea (egyptian wheels at the bottom of the red sea...hm, how'd they get there), Noah's ark, david's affair with Bathsheba, Goliath, the global flood, the babylonian captivity, Jesus, the early church andmany other stories from the Bible. I cant even list them all there are too manyl... looking it up for yourself!
This is just bullshit that your pastor has taught you. You've never researched it. Sure a bunch of charlatans write books saying they've discovered such things, but when it turns out to be bullshit, they just whistle a little tune and you fundies dance like trained lap dogs

3) Detailed medical evidence published in a peer review secular journal PROVING that Jesus died on the cross as reported in the gospels
Citation Needed

4) The Case for Christ, by Lee Strobel
Same old shit

5) Evidence that Demands a Verdict, by Josh McDowell
Great, so you dance out a bunch of Creationist authors. Should I dance out all the new age authors? Why should I believe a creationist over a new age author?

6) Evidence from Creation and science proving that the earth is 6,000 years old as the Bible claims and that evolution is a FRAUD and a HOAX!!! created by Charles Darwin to justifyhis SINFUL lifesyyle.
A Roman Catholic priest that counted the people in the bible? That's the only evidence you have

7) Eyewitness accounts of everything Jesus did and said, as well as many other miraculous events in both the old and new testaments and reliable historical records from OUTSIDE of the Bible . such as Josepheus, Tactis, Eusebius, Pliny the Elder, Julius Africanus, and MANY MANY OTHER RELIABLE HISTORIANS!
You're listing authors that came along long after Jesus died. Some as much as 1000 years

8) Miracles, prophecy, and other VERIFIABLE gifts of the spirit that are demonstrated on a weekly basis in many churches.
Yet in this time of cell phones with cameras, nobody offers to take a picture. Nobody goes back to their doctor who says "Damn, his leg grew back!"

9) Thousands and thousands of personal testimonies of people who have had an encounter with Jesus that transformed their lives. I was a fucking crackwhore living on the street before I met Apostle Davis and turned my life over to Christ. There are literally millions of stories like mine showing that Jesus is ALIVE AND WELL and able to help people who ask!!
Why does every fundie demand that they were in the worst possible condition. No fundie ever had a dull and boring life before they found Jesus. Nope, not one. Instead, it's always the one upmanship, always with the lies, always with the trying to outdo each other.

Oh, and if you really were a crack whore, you may want to check into what crack does to a persons brain. You don't function right afterwards, therefore your testimony is automatically suspect.

old comment by Antichrist

@ Brenz

Lets go with the scientific definition, since she's trying to disprove science.

Scientific evidence is evidence where the dependence of the evidence on principles of inference is not conceded, enabling others to examine the background beliefs or assumptions employed to determine if facts are relevant to the support of or falsification of a hypothesis

and of course using the scientific method

To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning.[1] A scientific method consists of the collection of data through observation and experimentation, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses.[2]

Then again, I'll be really surprised if she even responds to me. Typical fundie behaviour states that she'll just go spewing the same old shit on a different thread.

old comment by Dr. Shrinker

@ His4Life

Remember when I warned you about the boogeyman? You did not find it necessary to find proof that he doesn't exist, did you? Of course not, claims require evidence, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. That is why Christians are expected to pony up with the evidence.

I have often heard claims that Jesus fulfilled biblical prophecy. I then ask where in the Old testament is says that the messiah would be crucified by his enemies. Don't bother looking, it isn't there. Now, what were you saying about biblical prophecy?

The tale of the Egyptian chariot wheel in the Red Sea shows your lack of knowledge of the bible. The Hebrew bible records the Israelites as crossing the Sea of Reeds. It was changed to the Red Sea by mistake when it was translated into the Greek. As for your other claims, well again, most of them are not supported by any credible archeologist. The claims to have found Noah's Ark, for example have always been proven to be mistakes or outright frauds. There is no evidence of hundreds of thousands of people tromping through the Sinai peninsula for 40 years (no latrines or garbage heaps, odd for a group that large). Neither is there any record of such an event in the Egyptian records.

"Detailed medical evidence published in a peer review secular journal PROVING that Jesus died on the cross as reported in the gospels?" Which journal? How exactly did they prove it? With an autopsy? Again, I think you are just passing on rumors.

As for evidence for Creationism, I am afraid that is made up too. Creationism has had many chances to defend itself as a scientific theory, and it has failed every time. I refer you to talkorigins for a detailed description of the how's and why's of creationism's failures.

As for personal experiences, they too lack credibility. Islam and Mormonism (among many others) base their supposed authority on the personal experiences of their founders. How do we know that these extraordinary experiences are not the result of delusion, wishful thinking or outright deceit?

Now, what does science have? We have the fossil record, the geological record and genetics, all of which support an ancient Earth and evolution. Science has also given humanity medicine and technology, which has proven far more effective at improving the length and quality of life than prayer.

As for atheism improving people's lives, I cite the immortal words of Voltaire, "The true triumph of reason is that it enables us to get along with those who do not possess it."

Let the screeching and the insipid threats of hellfire commence.

old comment by His4Life

"1) The empty tomb
A hole in a rock? Really? Do you know how the "empty tomb" was found? Constantine's mother. Yeah, when the mother of a Roman Emperor tells you to find something, you pretty much better damn well find it."

No, silly; I don't mean the literal site in Jerusalem. We don't really know if that is Jesus' tomb or not. What I mean is... if Jesus didn't rise from the dead, where did his body go? Why didn't the Jews dig it out and present it as evidence to silence the Christians? Why didn't the Romans go and get it? I mean, seriously, where did that body go in your opinion?

"2) Fulfilled prophecy, down to the EXACT DETAIL of historical events
All my life I've been told of this fulfilled prophecy. Please give the details, as nobody else has ever been able to."

Oh you're kidding me, right? The Old Testament talks about TONS of battles and historical events that later came to pass. Atheists claim these were written after the events, but all historical findings point to the fact that these accounts were written before the events happened - sometimes centuries in advance. Check some of them out here; I think you'll dig this website:

http://100prophecies.org/

http://www.reasons.org/fulfilled-prophecy-evidence-reliability-bible

http://www.2christ.org/prophecy/

"3) This is just bullshit that your pastor has taught you. You've never researched it. Sure a bunch of charlatans write books saying they've discovered such things, but when it turns out to be bullshit, they just whistle a little tune and you fundies dance like trained lap dogs"

Nope. I didn't get any of this information from my pastor; it's all from books I've read.

"3) Detailed medical evidence published in a peer review secular journal PROVING that Jesus died on the cross as reported in the gospels
Citation Needed"

Citation Given, Bitch: http://brainshavings.com/supplements/crucifixion/

"4) The Case for Christ, by Lee Strobel
Same old shit"

Have you read it, jackass?

"5) Evidence that Demands a Verdict, by Josh McDowell
Great, so you dance out a bunch of Creationist authors. Should I dance out all the new age authors? Why should I believe a creationist over a new age author?"

Have you even read these books? Or are you just bashing them without even giving them a fair hearing? Not very scientific.

"A Roman Catholic priest that counted the people in the bible? That's the only evidence you have"

Nope. We've got TONS of fossils, geologic records, evidence from astronomy, etc. Check out AnswersinGenesis.org and read some of the articles. I think you'll find them interesting.

"You're listing authors that came along long after Jesus died. Some as much as 1000 years"

Bull fucking shit! Do you know ANYTHING about these authors? They all lived within 300 years of Christ's life, and most were alive within one generation after Christ.

"Yet in this time of cell phones with cameras, nobody offers to take a picture. Nobody goes back to their doctor who says "Damn, his leg grew back!"

Plenty. You can go on YouTube and see videos of services where spiritual gifts are exercised. Or you could just visit my church or another church of the Pentecostal/Charismatic persuasion and witness miraculous acitivty for yourself. If you'd like, I could even tape some of our meetings and try to post them online for you t ose. We had one where white feathers fell from the sky while we were praying, and another time a voice came from the basement below the church saying "Blessed in God's Holy name, are you saints of Detroit. Blessed in God's Holy name!" We felt the floor of the church shake when the voice was speaking, it was amazing. We all ran downstairs, and the basement was empty. Apostle Julie ran to a corner of the room to turn on a light, and suddenly we hear her shrieking. We run over, and she's jumping up and down in hysterics, pointing to a golden feather on the ground with the words "Blessed Be the Saints of Detroit" etched on it in cursive lettering. We have no idea where it came from, but it's actually made of solid gold. We had a jewler look at it and it's 24 karet. He said it's the purest and most beautiful gold he's ever seen. We have it in a case in the church narthex now.

"Why does every fundie demand that they were in the worst possible condition. No fundie ever had a dull and boring life before they found Jesus. Nope, not one. Instead, it's always the one upmanship, always with the lies, always with the trying to outdo each other."

Because I was, ok? I was living on the street and snorting crack, with nothing but a sleeping bag, a coat, and plastic garbage back with my shit in it. I was raped twice and attacked by a street gang on multiple ocassions. I almost died, ok? Before Apostle Davis came into my life, I was living day to day knowing I was going to die at any moment. Now I'm working as a secretary for a nice company, I've gotten off the drugs, and I'm living a clean, healthy life. I've reconnected with my kids and ex-husband, and we're going to get back together next year. All because of JESUS! Praise HIM!

"Oh, and if you really were a crack whore, you may want to check into what crack does to a persons brain. You don't function right afterwards, therefore your testimony is automatically suspect."

Yeah, I know man, I was living like shit, ok? I admit it. But Jesus forgave me and healed me and it's time to move on.

old comment by His4Life

"Remember when I warned you about the boogeyman? You did not find it necessary to find proof that he doesn't exist, did you? Of course not, claims require evidence, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. That is why Christians are expected to pony up with the evidence."

But nobody is seriously claiming that there's evidence for the boogeyman, that there are historical records talking about the boogeyman as a real person, or that they've actually mett the boogeyman. So there's nothing to respond to. BTW, I find your continual use of the term 'boogeyman' offensive and demeaning. 'Boogie' is a racial slur for a black person, and I don't like having to see it everytime I come on here. I am an intelligent, well educated black woman and i shouldn't have to be confronted with words like that when I come on here.

"I have often heard claims that Jesus fulfilled biblical prophecy. I then ask where in the Old testament is says that the messiah would be crucified by his enemies. Don't bother looking, it isn't there. Now, what were you saying about biblical prophecy?"

Dude, seriously? Here, check it out for yourself:

Psalm 22:16
Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet.

Isaiah 53:5
But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.

Zechariah 12:10
[ Mourning for the One They Pierced ] "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm......

"The tale of the Egyptian chariot wheel in the Red Sea shows your lack of knowledge of the bible. The Hebrew bible records the Israelites as crossing the Sea of Reeds. It was changed to the Red Sea by mistake when it was translated into the Greek. As for your other claims, well again, most of them are not supported by any credible archeologist. The claims to have found Noah's Ark, for example have always been proven to be mistakes or outright frauds. There is no evidence of hundreds of thousands of people tromping through the Sinai peninsula for 40 years (no latrines or garbage heaps, odd for a group that large). Neither is there any record of such an event in the Egyptian records."

No, it can be either. The Reed Sea thing was made up by skeptics to deny that the crossing was a miracle; the Egyptians just got stuck in mud.

You can see pictures of the wagon wheels here:

http://www.wyattmuseum.com/red-sea-crossing-05.htm

"Which journal? How exactly did they prove it? With an autopsy? Again, I think you are just passing on rumors."

I provided a link in the post above. It's from the American Medical Journal.

"As for evidence for Creationism, I am afraid that is made up too. Creationism has had many chances to defend itself as a scientific theory, and it has failed every time. I refer you to talkorigins for a detailed description of the how's and why's of creationism's failures."

And I refer YOU to AnswersinGenesis.org for the opposing side. At least consider both perspectives before jumping to conclusions.

"As for personal experiences, they too lack credibility. Islam and Mormonism (among many others) base their supposed authority on the personal experiences of their founders. How do we know that these extraordinary experiences are not the result of delusion, wishful thinking or outright deceit?"

Bull. They're MY experiences. Maybe YOU can't verify them and that's ok, but I'm not going to pretend they didn't happen. JESUS has actually visited our church. I saw him walk down the aisle one Sunday and give our pastor a hug at the end of the service. Then he disappeared. Like actually walked into a wall and vanished. I'm not the only one who saw him, either. Our pastor saw him, and so did many of the church's Apostles and Elders and many people in the congregation as well. I'm not going to say they're al lhallucinating when we ALL SAW THE EXACT SAME THING.

"Now, what does science have? We have the fossil record, the geological record and genetics, all of which support an ancient Earth and evolution. Science has also given humanity medicine and technology, which has proven far more effective at improving the length and quality of life than prayer."

I didn't say science. I said ATHEISM. There's a difference. I'm not against science.

"As for atheism improving people's lives, I cite the immortal words of Voltaire, "The true triumph of reason is that it enables us to get along with those who do not possess it."

Let the screeching and the insipid threats of hellfire commence"

No need. You already know where you're going if you die without Jesus. It's your call now.

old comment by Dr. Shrinker

I never intended to use the term "boogieman" as a racial slur. As i said before, the term actually comes from the Slavic word "bog." I am sorry if my use of it offended you.

That being said, you cite the gospel accounts of the crucifixion and the resurrection as proof of Jesus. It is obvious that you have never read and compared them (surprise, surprise). The four gospels irreconcilable in their accounts.

Tell me, did Jesus die after the passover feast as the synoptic gospels say, or before it, as John says? What were the last words of Jesus? How many women saw the empty tomb? If this were a murder trial, and the authors of the four gospels were called as witnesses, their diverging testimony would convince the judge to throw the case out.

I suggest that you google "the Easter Challenge." The challenge was put forth by a former minister. He invites anyone who is interested to construct a time-line of the events of the resurrection that does not leave out a single detail. So far, no one has been able to do it.

The article you cite explains how Jesus could have died in a few hours, instead of the days it usually takes for a crucified person to die. So tell me, if he had written an article explaining how Golem could have bitten off Frodo's finger despite only have six teeth, would that prove that the Lord of The Rings is true? Of course not. A realistic explanation of the events in a fictional character's life do not make said fictional character real.

As for your biblical quotes, you obviously haven't read the passages before and after them (again, surprise, surprise). They are not referring to the messiah. Furthermore, I still have not seen a quote that refers to crucifixion.

I invite you to do a bit or research to determine the credibility of Wyatt and his "museum." I have read some of the articles at answersingenesis. They are scientifically bereft and have been debunked numerous times (see talkorigins). Answerisingenesis will never admit this though.

As for Jesus appearing in your church, now that is an extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary proof. I do recall Jim Jones healed and even resurrected some his followers n his church. The recipients of these "miracles" later admitted that they were faked to bolster the congregations' faith. Of course, that couldn't be the case for your church, or could it?

As you said, its your call.

old comment by Giveitaday

Why do scientists do this?

Do what? Do science? They are scientists, that's what they do. Although I'm pretty sure you mean "Why do scientist disagree with ME, don't they know that I am right?"

Why do they want evidence

The have evidence, and pleanty of it. What twists your nipples is that the evidence doesn't prove you right.

have the Bible

The bible is, at best, anecdotal and hearsay. On top of all of that the bible offers nothing in the way of evidence, scientific, historical, or otherwise, no matter how badly you want it to.

deny it

Where, in any scientific theory, is there an intrisic and outright denial of the bible? Do you honestly think that all scientists are part of some monolithic group of atheists dedicated to denying the bible? Because that's what it sounds like, and I certain that there are many devout christians in the world of science that would be suprised to hear that they deny the bible by virtue of their profession.

and try to come up with their own evidence?

Because that's how evidence is obtained. It's not something handed down from on high, but rather atained through repeatable experimentation.

old comment by Giveitaday

@His4Life

I was living on the street and snorting crack"

If that where the case and you really were a crack addict then you should know that you don't "snort" crack, you have to smoke it, otherwise you are wasting a fuckload of money because cocaine in a base form (As opposed to the hydochloride salt form of powder cocaine) cannot be absorbed through the mucous mebrane of the nose or through the process of digestion.

If it sounds like I doubt the veracity of your claim it's because I do. It reeks of an atrocity tale by someone who has heard of those drugs but never indulged, and therefore has to make shit up and hope they don't get called on it.

We had a jewler look at it and it's 24 karet. He said it's the purest and most beautiful gold he's ever seen.

No you didn't. If had taken it to a flat out incompetant jeweler he would not have call 24K gold "the purest he had ever seen" because he, unlike you, would know that 33K is pure gold, whereas 24K is not, nor is 33K gold so rare that the jeweler would have never seen it before.

Seriously now, If you are going to just make shit up then at least bother to research it first, because at the rate you are going you're looking less & less like a true believer and more & more like a pathological liar.

old comment by LDM

"Has anyone's life ever been transformed (in a positive way) by atheism?"

*Raises hand*

I was an alcoholic as a christian, and full of self-loathing. Since I walked away from the church 18 years ago I've had less to drink than most people will have this weekend. I'm much more open minded, much happier with myself, and have much better relationships with the people I know.
And I probably live a more christian life than any bible-thumping asswipe out there.

Oh, and, the Bible proves NOTHING! Science is based on observation, experimentation and thorough study, with conclusions drawn, updated and revised as observations, experiments and studies continue and new conclusions are drawn. Like life, it is a never ending cycle, and like evolution it is forever changing.

old comment by Anon-e-moose

@His4Life

"Why is it that Christians are the ones always being asked for evidence, while the atheists can just sit on their hands and not provide any evidence for their position?"

Because we Atheists aren't the ones who claim that a 'God' exists, unlike you fundies. As I've explained in another thread, if you're the one who makes a claim (and an extraordinary one, i.e. that an all-powerful deity that you say exists), then the onus is on you to back up your claim, via physical evidence.

It's called Burden of proof.

And you know the only way to prove that a 'God' exists to the satisfaction of we Atheists, is for you to actually present to us this 'God' of yours, in hard, solid, physical form that can be seen, heard & touched (and no, not 'Jesus', 'God' himself). Also, to prove he is what he says he is, via demonstrations of his power - again, to our satisfaction. Only then will we acknowledge the existence of such a being; although he certainly doesn't deserve being worshipped, nor respect of any kind. By allowing evil to exist, and people to die - especially in the Old Testament - he's proved to be a complete douchebag with absolutely NO right to respect, never mind worship. I reckon that's why - if a 'God' exists - he refuses to show himself. Because he's got a lot of explaining to do.

So like I say, as it's you (& your ilk) who claims that a 'God' exists, therefore the onus - and burden - is on you to prove the existence of your so-called 'God', as explained above.

Because we Atheists, who don't acknowledge the existence of a 'God' - for the aforementioned reasons - don't go around forcing people to believe that such a deity exists, nor threaten them with psychological blackmail (your 'insipid threats of Hellfire', to borrow from Dr. Shrinker). After all, we Atheists don't do something something as stupid, delusional, and insane as 'believe' in a non-existent deity. Therefore we don't have to lift a finger.

And that's the difference. Remember those three golden words:

Burden of proof

Now prove your claim that a 'God' exists. To our satisfaction, as stated above.

old comment by Caustic Gnostic

Can you 'prove' your 'burden of proof' deal using physical evidence? Didn't think so. It's a philosophical position to avoid arguing your side, not a scientific fact.

WTF?!

Oh, all right. There is no object, event or circumstance observed by science that requires a violation of any principle of physics, chemistry, biology, geology, etc. To support my argument I cite any and every contemporary science journal.

In other words, wizardly magic (goddidit) is no way to explain anything. Those who claim the existence of wizardly magic (goddidit) need to demonstrate how (goddidit) works. We're not asking for much. It doesn't need to be anything fancy. Just turn a lump of lead into gold, or restore the lost limb of an amputee. When you do that, describe your work in detail so that experimenters around the world can replicate the results.

Remember, our scientists have created elements that your magical wizard didn't. So don't give me that bullshit that science can't do some really amazing things.

Besides, everybody knows there is a mystical teapot in solar orbit between Earth and Mars. Bertrand Russell put it there. Prove me wrong.

old comment by Eden

To add to the things said about burden of proof:

Christian fundamentalists try to influence the american society in a way that afects both, christians as well as atheists or believers in other faiths, and often the attempts of christian fundamentalism at influencing society are connected to decreasing thequality of lieof certain parts of the population (or at least at preventing parts of the population from improving their quality of life).

Examples would be:
Trying to keep the theory of evolution out of science classes (or forcing creationism/ID into it) which makes education for children, affected in such a way, suffer.

Preventing children from learning about methods of contraception, instead trying to force upon them sex after marriage education (which leads to an increase of tenage pregnancies, as some kids just don´t want to wait, but because of lack of educationin this matter were ill informed about methods of contraception).

Preventing pregnant women from getting an abortion, even if the abortion is medically (or psychologically) sound(in some cases endangering the life of the pregnant woman)

Keeping people from marrying the person they love (and to which they are sexually attracted to) if said person has the same gender.

In all these cases christian fundamentalist use their faith as justification for their attempts to (often in a negative way) influence the lifes of christian and nonchristian americans, thereby, in a way, forcing their own faith upon others.
It should be clear, that this is something which should definitely require a proof of the truth of said faith.

old comment by Vorlon

Is the Troybot doing all that spamming manually, and actually deliberately choosing incongruous people to impersonate, or is it just luck?

Also,
a. Burden Of Proof is a basic fundemental precept behind virtually all of modern society, from law, to government, to things like getting bank accounts and insurance.

b. I seem to recall, using the mathematical definition of the term, they *have* proved the mechanism by which the universe came to be, according to the information available. That's how they predicted the existance of the Higgs Boson, which they're now performing experiments to find and demonstrate. (can someone confirm/correct this statement please?)

old comment by Anon-e-moose

@His4Life

"Higgs Bosom"

Freudian slip, much?

"Ok, so the Higgs Boson particle doesn't prove anything about whether God exists or not"

And fundies spewing spiritual & metaphorical crap about a so-called 'God' from at best third-hand testimonies in a compilation written by Bronze Age goatfuckers with ideas above their stations, doesn't prove that a so-called 'God' exists. Not until said fundies can produce him in physical form. Therefore...:

"What's the point?"

Of fundamentalist Christianity? None whatsoever, as far as I can tell. No proof, no acknowledgement of a 'God's existence. Certainly from we Atheists.

"Can you 'prove' your 'burden of proof' deal using physical evidence?"

We Atheists aren't the ones making the claim that a 'God' exists. It's you fundies who do. Thus the onus, and therefore the burden of proof, is on you to prove that he does. That's how the argument works, y'see. We Atheists don't have to lift a finger.

...but then, if your so-called 'God' was everything he claimed to be (i.e. 'omnipotent'), he wouldn't need the likes of you to 'spread the word'. He'd be more than capable of doing the job himself. Frankly, you fundies have no part in it. You're a 'fifth wheel', surplus to requirements, irrelevant. After all, as a comedian once said, "If God is the most powerful being in the universe, why does he have a bunch of bozos to do his P.R.?"

Now ask yourself why he can't announce himself to the entire world, to everyone at the same time? If he can do something as hyper-complex as magic an entire universe, world & all the life on it, then frankly merely showing himself would be a piece of piss, wouldn't you say? So why can't he?

If you posses a shred of logic and reason, and asked yourself that simple question - why he can't show himself - you'd come up with one of these answers (check one):

[ ] If 'God' actually showed himself in physical form, it would spell the end for you & your ilk. After all, proof denies faith, and without faith, there can be no 'spiritual' belief. And religion relies on the 'belief' of it's adherents. Therefore Christianity would be destroyed. No religion = No God.

[ ] He can't show himself, because a 'God' doesn't exist.

Choose wisely.

old comment by Moondog

"These are the Things That Creationists Hate"
(Sung to the tune of "My Favorite Things")
Thermodynamics and closing the system,
DNA helix and techs that can twist 'em,
Egyptian history without a flood break,
These are the things that creationists hate.

Wallace and Darwin and Einstein and Hawking
Asimov, Sagan and Shermer - how shocking!
Eldrige and Gould and their colleagues to date :
These are the people creationists hate.

People who know how to work with statistics,
Fossils that flesh out the map of cladistics,
Models that show how the genomes mutate,
These are the things that creationists hate.

When the fundies
Purge the textbooks,
And the schools beset,
I mention the things that creationists hate,
And that gets them all upset!

Hate the scien-
tific method;
Made up their own way :
"You must take as fact the bible
Or at least the parts we say!"

There are more species than one ark could carry,
Lightspeed inside of a vacuum won't vary,
Isotopes melt at a consistent rate,
These are the things that creationists hate.

Transitional fossils that show speciation,
Galapagos finches and random mutation,
Isotopic decay at predictable rates,
These are the things that creationists hate.

The orbit of planets is heliocentric,
Science and reason are now epidemic,
God's love to me seems a bit more like hate,
These are the things that creationists hate.

Pagan witches,
Darwin fishes
Seem to make them mad.
So they just cling to their bibles and shout
"Everything else iiiiiis bad!"

Fossil records,
Plate tectonics,
Make them really blue.
But if they relied on their mythos for food,
They wouldn't know what to do!

Well before Darwin, geologists began
Establishing that the earth's much older than
Jim Usher said, and that science refuses
To yield up the proof of a flood for the pews.

Physics has all those embarrassing laws,
Like rates of decay for the isotopes. Cause
Of the rainbow is really refraction of light,
They twist it to prove the great Book - that ain't right.

Old-Earthers think the Young-Earthers too zealous,
Young-Earthers think the Old-Earthers bad fellas.
Seeking the ark, they make trips down to Turk-
ey, each says the other's obstructing their work.

Noah's shi-ip
Seems to sli-ip
Past discovery.
Dozens say that they've found it,
But yet no recovery!

old comment by His4Life

wow, I think I'vebeen on this board too long. I had a horrifying dream about atheists last night, but I think God gave it to me as a severe warning to pass along to you atheists here. It was about two atheists on judgement day, a man and a woman in their early 30s. They weren't married but had been shacking up and doing drugs and other shit and they were totally confident that there was no God and science would save them.

Anyway remember what I said about hades and hell/the lake of fire being seperate places? This dream kind of relates to that. The two atheists died of a drug overdose and ended up in Hades. They were taken to their prison cells in hades and these huge angels in black were standing guard (angels of judgment they're called). It was funny but sad because the atheists immediately started trying to analyze everything through science, and the angels of judgment started laughing and beat the living tar out of them both with their flaming whips. Then the atheists wanted to know why they were in hades, and the angels said 'because you're sinners and you didn't repent of your sins.' One of the atheists said that they weren't sinners and the angel laughed. It started rattling off a list of sins that both atheists were guilty of that seemed to go on for years, giving them a lash with its whip for each sin it read off. The atheists screeched and clawed their way across the floor trying to get away; it was kind of funny but horribly sad. Finally, the atheists were let out of hades and came before the great white judgment seat of God. They were like 'phew, it's finally over.' And God replied "No, for you eternity is just beginning." Then they were judged by God and thrown into the lake of fire. In my dream, I was brought back to the lake of fire in like a hundred years in the future to see if the atheists were still there. They wre still there burning. it was horrible becuase now i know what the Lord meant when said that in hell both body and soul will be destroyed. It doesn't mean literal destrution; it just means that the personality of the person will be totally destroyed. All the atheists could do was scream for mercy from those watchingon the shore of the lake of the fire; they couldn't even communicate or be human anymore. One of them tried to claw its way out, but the angel gave it a kick in the teeth and sent it flying baeck into the lack fo fire. and then I woke up in a cold sweat.

Hell is real, and God loves you and wants to save you so you don't go throug hthis place! Please repent! I am not tying to be mean and i am sorry if may attitude has turned anyone itnoff, please forgive me but don't continue living in sin Godwants to save you

old comment by Anon-e-moose is superior to God

@His4Life

"Hell is real"

Prove it. Got that "Sliders"-style dimensional portal generating device to hand?

"and God loves you and wants to save you so you don't go throug hthis place!"

If your so-called 'God' loves us, let's see him prove it. Eliminate ALL evil in the world now.

"Please repent!"

If your so-called 'God wants us to 'repent', he can appear to us in person - in physical form - and ask us. Simple, eh?

"I am not tying to be mean"

You were certainly trying beforehand. But that's right-wing fundies for you - they can be very trying.

"and i am sorry if may attitude has turned anyone itnoff"

If only every right-wing fundie had the same attitude, and generally left everyone alone. Then this would be a better world. A fundie-free world. After all:

Matthew 6:6: But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

In other words, keep your religion to yourselves.

"please forgive me"

Okay, I forgive you. 'To err is human, to forgive, divine'. And I am superior to God after all (as in I can do something he can't: exist).

"but don't continue living in sin"

'Sin' is defined in any dictionary as committing crimes against divine law. Or contravening the moral standards of a deity(ies). But since we Atheists don't acknowledge the existence of a 'God', therefore we can't be sinners.

We Atheists certainly have higher moral standards than your 'God'. Just read the Old Testament for proof. Therefore we Atheists are superior to God.

"Godwants to save you"

The heavenly lord and master
Saw man heading for a hellish disaster
Why'd he send his son in
To take away sin
When snapping his fingers'd be faster?

old comment by Lucifer

@auther of the rant
You don't HAVE evidence in your bible. It's contradictory to what is common observation and knowledge.
@everyone else
Can someone please explain how dreams prove anything?
@Hisforlife
People dream. It's images in your head. I mean I had a dream that the so called devil had love issues before he fell and is now stuck guarding the Garden of Eden. What does that prove. it doesn't prove anything, certainly not the existance of the devil. What about people's dreams about aliens, monsters, psycho lesbian demon containing ninjas, serial killers with killer notebooks, ninjas, ugly snake men, guys in costumes saving the world, digimon, pokemon, bizzaro tech, zombies, and gun slingers. People dream about that stuff doesn't make it real.

old comment by Abdul Alhazred

@ His4Life

Higgs Boson

The standard model predicts that all four natural forces (there are actually only four [4]) used to be combined in one [1] single force after the big bang.

Scientists try to figure out how this combination of forces work.

Higgs Boson is a particle which explains how two of these forces combine. Scientist say if they observe it experimentally it would give them clues to further understand this thing.

Let us assume the four natural forces are A B C D. Higgs Boson (HB) would add someting like

(A-k*HG)/2Pi*C = 1/8

So give a connection how A relates to C in a formula.

If we have the final formula combining all four forces, e.g. (A+B-4C)/D = 7 Pi we already know how we call it, the "God equation". Which is basically a joke, for this equation would do nothing but to explain the entire fu****g universe, from the big bang to the rapture, ahem, proton decay for that matter.

Since Higgs Boson is probably the last particle scientist need to observe to come up with an good idea how this equation has to be put together, they call it the "god particle", which is the follow up joke to the "god equation"

Observing Higgs Boson has also some other implications, like understanding why there is mass, but that has nothing to do with god again. As the rest in science doesn't.

Science does not deal with god. There is nothing that could be said about god from a scientific point. We can not prove him, observe him, deny him and so forth. And quite frankly, nobody needs him.

Science can explain the universe in all its aspects pretty well, even predict its properties before we have the machinery we need to observe them, and guess what, none of the things we see out there or in us need some sort of supernatural deity to make sense in the context of the rest.

Pretty cool, eh?

old comment by God of Hell

@ #1068535
I don't think she cares about people being able to save themselves from death. After all, praying to Jeebus is all you would need.

@Toodumb4life
If you want I'll tell you the basic three rules of humanity.
1.ALLhumans die. As do all living things.
2.No matter what you do, no matter how you live your life, no matter how long you live, you're going to die. Payer is not going to save your life from anything. Death is eternal and will be here as long as there is life.
3.Humans are not perfect. Perfection is a myth. No human could be perfect.

Religion is only there to alleviate that fear. People invented it so they could not worry about natural phenomenon. So unless you prove the existence of you lord as savior. It's just a faith-based value.

As for the particle thing. If we understand this particle. we could easily make a better future. Not like you care since it's not based on the bible.

old comment by Anon-e-moose is superior to God

@His4Life

If your so-called 'God' wants us to 'bring glory to him', he can appear before us and ask for said 'glory' now. You have no part in the process. Nor does every other right-wing fundy like you. So how can you justify your bluff & bluster, and threats of 'Hell'? Surely your so-called 'God' can do that job by himself?

But then, if he's omipotent, why does he need 'glory'? Seems very egotistical of a so-called 'deity' with infinite power. What about before he even created the angels, never mind we mere mortals? How could he have possibly lived in all the infinite eons previously, without anyone giving him 'glory'? Would he die without it? (check one):

[ ] Yes. Thus 'God' isn't omnipotent, if he can't possibly exist without anyone giving him 'glory'. Thus he's not God. He's an inferior being not worthy of acknowledgement, nor 'belief' or 'faith' in such. And even if he exists, he's such an ego-monster for wanting 'glory', that frankly he has NO right to exist. But then, if he's not omnipotent, then he's not God. Thus he's a contradiction to himself. Ergo, he doesn't exist. QED.

[ ] No. So why does he need something as completely irrelevant (certainly to him) as 'glory'? And if he doesn't require 'glory' for his existence, then he doesn't require praise, or worshipping. Or even belief. After all, to quote Thomas Jefferson (remember him? One of the Founding Fathers who, via his contribution to the drawing up of the Constitution, proved that America isn't a 'Christian country', as you claimed & we on FSTDT comprehensively disproved. Otherwise, he wouldn't have said):

'Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear'

And if 'God' doesn't require, 'glory', then he doesn't require praise, and neither belief, nor acknowledgement of his existence. Therefore he doesn't require the man-made concept of religion. Ergo, religion - especially Fundamentalist Christianity - can't justify it's existence. QED.

Choose wisely.

old comment by Anon-e-moose is superior to God

His4Life is suddenly conspicuous by her absence eh, fellow FSTDTers? Could it be due to...?:

1- She has no more credible arguments up her sleeves, re. the Higgs-Boson, and the quest for such via the LHC. Especially how her previous attempts to prove that 'America is a Christian country' in another thread were completely destroyed.

2- We won't listen to her pathetic threats of a fictional 'Hell', nor anything else she claims, without physical evidence.

3- She's been exposed as a Poe/troll, especially via her claims about '24k gold', or that she was a 'crack whore'; both were utterly annihilated by Giveitaday*.

4- All of the above.

*- For spotting those inconsistencies/lies, and using such weapons of logic in said annihilation process against His4Life, I think that earns you another round of applause:

image

Emily #fundie answers.yahoo.com

116 comments

Confused?