nargal2 #fundie

nargal2 #fundie ca.answers.yahoo.com

I cant stand it when athiests say, "if there was a god, why doesnt he do this, or why does he allow that." There is a bigger picture. we have chosen to have certain ailments, handicaps, mental illness, etc. to learn about prejudice, tolerance, racism, etc. if there was no evil, or hard times on earth, then why would we have to come here in the first place. god didnt do anything to us, we chose it for ourselves, because we wanted to learn certain things in this life. people that choose to have bad lives, are actually the brave ones who wanted to learn as much as possible.

76 comments

old comment by SweetViolet

You haven't had any real tragedies or traumas in your life yet, have you?

Wait until your infant child nearly dies of a virus and when he survives, it is with brain damage. Wait until your child is kidnapped from her bedroom at night and is brutally raped and then discarded like an old rag. Wait until your aged mother is raped and murdered in her home by a burglar. Wait until you struggle with infertility and when your hopes are raised by a pregnancy, see them dashed by repeated miscarriages.

Sadly, you are one of those smug, self-satisfied pricks who must experience gut-wrenching tragedy in their own lives before they can develop any empathy for those who ask why an omnipotent god would allow a helpless infant be born with painful, devastating defect, allow a toddler to be raped and left to die, permit a child to writhe in the agonies of terminal cancer.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

old comment by tmr

Yes, my 21 year old cousin chose to die of a rare form of brain cancer because she wanted to learn about being awake during brain surgery, chemo that destroyed her; she wanted to learn how far her parent's emotional pain could go, not to mention her own. She wanted to learn about the insurance industry first hand and what they will and will not cover. She wanted to see which christian would come forward to offer help and support to her and her family.

Amazingly (or not), it was our atheist uncle who paid for experimental treatments that kept her alive to see her nephews grow for 7 years.

But, you know, she chose all that. I'm glad to know that now. That makes those seven years of hell so much more worthwhile.

old comment by David D.G.

#448045: Actually, a more subtle fundilicious bit is, "if there was no evil, or hard times on earth, then why would we have to come here in the first place." First, he clearly does not consider the possibility that we live (i.e., "come here") just because we are simply life forms being born in a totally natural (as opposed to supernatural) world.

But in addition to that, he also describes this as if evil and suffering were somehow an attraction, as if ethereal people looking to be born gaze down upon Earth and say, "Wow, spina bifida that leaves one a lifelong paraplegic with a lousy immune system, other major painful system disorders, and a lifespan half of normal at best -- I could get into that."

Yet he writes of this as if it were as matter-of-fact as a viewpoint on where one should consider going on vacation. Absolutely stunningly stupid.

~David D.G.

old comment by Illuminatalie

I think some of these comments are strangely putting words in this guy's mouth. I think it's some kind of theory of incarnation or reincarnation, where people choose their lives ahead of time, and only those who are brave choose to have a life of someone who's got it rough on this planet. NOT because it is good to make things rough on the poor souls (*at least* I don't see where that is implied), but because only 'brave spirits' would choose to say, be black in 1700s American plantations, or be gay in Iran, or a Jew in medieval Europe, or... A lot of religions teach we should empathize with those who suffer, and regardless of how it is carried out today, the original reason for the Muslim month of fasting was to remind the self that others actually suffer like this constantly. And also that suffering, while not a good thing, and something to avoid, and certainly not something to inflict on others, can be turned into a good thing. (If it doesn't kill you first, haha)

old comment by Brain_In_A_Jar

Normally, when I respond to a post here, I try to imagine what possible mindset could have produced it in order to better understand and hence respond to the delusions and erroneous conclusions, but I simply don't think I can get into this one - it's just too twisted.

It appears to be some badly mutated form of the just world fallacy - perceiving apparently undeserved hardship and misery, the subject will convince themselves of any reason they can think of for the events to have occurred, however implausible, because the notion that they could occur without any reason at all is simply too depressing or frightening. In the fallacy in its classic form, the substituted reason is that the victim must actually have done something to deserve punishment that hasn't been disclosed.

In this modified version, the substituted conclusion would appear to be that because the victim hasn't done anything to deserve such treatment as punishment, they must actually have chosen it - in crude terms, anyone who gets punished without deserving it must be some kind of masochist. The irrational conclusion, without evidence, of some unknown crime to warrant the punishment is correctly rejected, but the fundamental failure to accept suffering as simple chance, or fate, remains.

That's my best guess, anyway.

old comment by Wandering Discordian

I feel like articulating this guy's unstated premise would help some people understand what it is he's actually trying to say.
Now, I can't speak for him, but it sounds like he believes that 1) there is such a thing as an eternal soul/spirit/whatever that exists beyond the material form, 2) said soul engages in serial reincarnation in order to learn, 3) has control of what kind of life and body it will end up with on each pass and 4) god is not the omni-benevolent Christian kind.
Basically, he's saying that suffering exists because an individual, eternal spirit that resides in humans and does all this reincarnating wants to know what some sort of suffering is like. All the suffering is ok in the end because the souls (and presumably, personalities)of everyone involved learn and end up back in some other dimension with god and who knows what else. Sounds rather Platonic, actually.
As I said, I don't know specifically what this guy is thinking, but the mindset of "suffering exists so the spirit can learn" is not an uncommon one. Sure it has it's holes and is as unfalsifiable as any other religion, but if it spurns empathy and understanding, is it harmful? Claiming that it necessarily abets suffering is borderline secularist fundie.

old comment by Alena

I must have missed the part where my mom chose to have the chemicals in her brain be unbalanced, leading her to almost constant emotional duress for years which nearly resulted in her committing suicide, and then only being diagnosed with a mental illness after she had kids, so she now feels crushing guilty for passing on her mental illness to both of her children.

I must have missed the part where my brother chose to rage and cry and scream and not know why he was so upset all the time when he was growing up. I must have missed the part where he hated himself at six years old because he couldn't understand why he always felt so depressed and anxiety-stricken.

I must have missed the part where I chose to suffer from severe depression, which caused me to start cutting myself in order to cope at age eleven, and then continue cutting myself on and off until I was seventeen, at which time I had a complete mental breakdown and was almost unable to function in normal, day-to-day life. I came very, very close to killing myself multiple times, just so that my mind would finally be quiet. I would lie awake in bed at night, wanting to scream or claw at my arms or anything, because the pain of the depression was so bad that I could barely stand it.

I must have missed the part where my great-grandfather chose to spend the last parts of his life wasting away from cancer, barely able to take care of himself when he'd been so independent and self-sufficient for years.

I must have missed the part where my great-grandmother chose to fall in the bathroom, have a stroke, and end up lying on the cold tile floor for hours, unable to move, before my cousin dropped by and found her. She later died in the hospital. I missed the part where all of us chose those things.

Thank you for enlightening me.

old comment by Illuminatalie

Septic Skeptic : so maybe that soul just wanted to experience confusion of senses and bewilderment, who knows? Ask nargal2 for further clarification. No one said it was a perfect or particularly sensible view of the world :) All that's been said is, this is the thinking and intent that lies behind these beliefs.

I think people here are confusing this kind of reincarnation with a CASTE SYSTEM where people are born poor, rich, etc, because of what they did in the last life, according to what they deserved in other words. And to help poor people would actually be to work against what God(s) decided. There are actually places in southeast asia where this attitude prevails. But nargal2 is saying more along the lines of, spirits learn lessons by taking on physical life, and the tougher the life situations, the nobler or braver the spirit. So it's not all bad intent, sheesh. Don't let fundies blind you to the fact that a lot of people (MOST people) have genuinely good intents towards their neighbors. Whether it's misguided or not.

Just different ways of thinking about existence. It reminds me of "Voyage to Arcturus", and the stream the main character Maskull had to follow to its source that contained a kind of life-force that constantly materialized into living creatures, and the way that overall process was described.

old comment by Mister Spak

"we have chosen to have certain ailments, handicaps, mental illness, etc. to learn about prejudice, tolerance, racism, "

Why were you chosen by god to be a retard? What are you supposed to learn from that?

Brain in a jar:

This concept has been reported by people who had a near death experience. Souls who volunteer to be born agree to have a certain kind of life beforhand to accomplish a mission. One of these people gave as an example two souls who were close friends in the beforelife, one was born as a homeless drunk and got put in the path of the other who was a banker. The purpose was to teach the banker to be his brothers keeper. The drunk was considered to be a superhero by the other souls because he chose such a crappy life.

old comment by Poisoned Rationality

Wandering Discordian: Exactly so.

I'm a believer in reincarnation. Others on this board might laugh, and that's fine. I still do. And I was taught something similar to what nargal2 is saying, with a few subtle differences.

I was taught that we choose our lives before we start them, as in where we're born (country, city or area, neighborhood, etc.), what family we're born into (including race, social status, etc.), and what sort of life we'll live, and that that choice determines what lessons we'll learn while in that life. However, none of it covered diseases or infirmities or horrible acts perpetrated against us by others. As for that part, I can't really comment. The rest, when you see it in the light of a person wanting to experience different ways of living/areas/customs/etc., isn't supposed to be a bad thing. It's supposed to be all about a personal journey and self-discovery.

Does this mean that we should look at someone who is disabled or suffering from a terrible disease and say "Oh, that's what they chose so who cares"? Hell no. Tragedies are just that...tragic. And if that is indeed what nargal2 implies in his post (the "who cares?" reaction), then it's terrible. However, I don't really see any definite stance one way or the other from the blurb that was posted here.

It simply looks as though he's crossing New Age beliefs with Christianity (some New Agers I know - myself included - believe in reincarnation but are fuzzy on the whole God issue, if not flat-out disbelieving) to avoid answering the "Why does God allow suffering?" question.

old comment by Poisoned Rationality

Nirjuana: In case that question was directed at me: I'm not really sure. Like I said, we didn't cover the disease/personal injury thing in our talks about predestined situations. If you assume for a moment that this version of things is real, then I suppose it might be the case that such things are chosen by the people who will live through/with it. But I have no well-formed views on that aspect of it.

It's really hard to comment on things like this, because the more I learn about various religions the more it colors what I believe. As I mentioned to Brain_In_A_Jar, I have my beliefs, but that's not to say they are set in stone. I could learn something later in life that could change my view completely, and I welcome the opportunities to see if there's something out there that "feels more right" to me (for lack of a better word). I guess I was just trying to say, in posting, that I've heard this sort of thing before. As someone else mentioned, it's a common belief. I just wanted to point out that not everyone goes so far as to imply that said suffering is, in and of itself, a good thing.

old comment by Brain_In_A_Jar

Well, Poisoned Rationality, it would appear you've picked a fairly appropriate user name. You're evidently intelligent and have functioning morals, but it still seems crazy, at least to me, that you'd believe something like reincarnation without a shred of proof, simply because eventual non-existence, the default conclusion of any positive rationalist, is too frightening.

There's an Asimov quote that I think sums up my basic attitude to death pretty well - "I have accomplished in life what I intended, and under what circumstances may one better die?" - Hari Seldon.

I accept my eventual, inevitable non-existence, and aim to achieve something that will satisfy my various drives and goals before then. Given all the things I'd like to do, another one or two hundred years would be nice on top of the seventy or so I've got left, barring accidents, but I've still got enough time to achieve something without them. Death is something to be avoided as long as possible, but fearing it is pointless and often does more harm than good; whereas rational thought cannot be misdirected without ceasing to be rational, emotions can be brought under some kind of control. I cannot bring myself to believe anything other than non-existence awaits me based on all the available evidence, but I do seem to have found a way not to fear it (at least, in those situations where fear isn't useful), and just get on with living.

I'm sorry this isn't very clear; I'm not actually sure myself how I've managed to come to the mindset that I have today, or even if I could fully describe it. I do at least know (to the extent that anything can be known, when trying to analyse your own mind) that I've never had to suppress my rationality in order to maintain it.

old comment by Poisoned Rationality

Brain_In_A_Jar: Granted, my explanation was simplified pretty much to the point of taking the piss. I could give you a longer, more-detailed answer as to why I see things the way I see them, but it would be convoluted at best. I don't have much of a way with words, and trying to explain things I can't fully put into words confuses not only the person I'm trying to explain it to, but me as well (I get tongue-tied rather easily, and it tends to make me sound unsure of myself even if the view I'm trying to explain is strongly held).

And hell...I'd be fooling myself if I thought for one instant that nobody would think my belief in reincarnation is crazy. I wouldn't expect anyone to accept it out of hand, just as I wouldn't accept what they believe in that way. It's okay - diversity is a good thing, especially when people with differing opinions/outlooks aren't pressing said opinions and outlooks on you. And I'm certainly not.

It's okay - I view a good many aspects of Christianity - especially the warped fundie version - the same way. Crazy. Maybe in time my views will change. Maybe in time I'll come to accept the inevitable. Maybe. But I'm still young enough - thirty two - to want to hold onto life, such as it is, be it this one or any that follow it.

I like, though, that you called me crazy in so many words without being confrontational. Take that comment in the spirit in which it was made - it actually amused me. :)

Let's agree to disagree, shall we? I'll continue to not yell at you for not believing (wouldn't do that anyway, but you know), and you can continue to be civil though you think I'm nuts. I've found that works out quite well for all involved. :)

ETA: Also, a quote for a quote:

I never told my own religion nor scrutinized that of another. I never attempted to make a convert, nor wished to change another's creed. I am satisfied that yours must be an excellent religion to have produced a life of such exemplary virtue and correctness. For it is in our lives, and not from our words, that our religion must be judged.

- Thomas Jeffersin, 1816, in a letter to Mrs. H. Harrison Smith

Nice, that. I view you based on your actions, rather than the religion (or lack thereof) you follow. If only everyone looked at it that way. :)

old comment by Justanotheratheist

One obvious reason why athiests (sic) say things like that is because, well, even the slightest shred of evidence that god exists would make us rethink our position. Furthermore, it is you theists who obviously by definition believe that god does exist and the onus is on you to prove it, not on athiests (sic) to disprove it.

Where is your evidence? Exactly - you have none, not in any real sense of the word, because "the bible says so" is evidence of nothing except of what it says in the bible. It's a circular argument with absolutely no value.

As for people choosing their lives for themselves - that is insulting, and stupid. I will grant you that there was a time when you had to be very brave to want to learn as much as possible, e.g. Galileo. But that probably isn't what your quasi-literate post intended.

“we have chosen to have certain ailments, handicaps, mental illness, etc. to learn about prejudice, tolerance, racism, etc”
Genesis says that there wsa this tree, and eating the fruit of the tree taught the person about good and evil.
Would that not have included racism, prejudice, intolerance, and libertarian politics?
Why do we have to experience it if knowledge can be transmitted through fruit?

The whole set-up makes no sense. If there’s no prejudice in Heaven, why do we have to learn about it? What’s the point in the first place? And why such an inefficient manner of transmitting the knowledge?

nargal2 #fundie ca.answers.yahoo.com

76 comments

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