Question: ..eternal damnation -- was so monstrously out of proportion to the crime... I have no problem with the idea of crime and punishment per se, but the punishment has to fit the crime: Even Hitler doesn't deserve eternal punishment.
Ethan's Answer: This is simply because you have no idea who God is or what He is like. Is there a difference in the crime of punching your brother vs. punching your mother? It's worse depending on the person offended. That's how sin is measured. God is infinitely holy. Our sins are an infinite offense to Him. Therefore they deserve an infinite punishment. If you "feel" that God's justice is too strict, just remember you’re not God, and also remember that He's provided the complete forgiveness of sins in Jesus Christ. Either you take the punishment or let Him, your choice?
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Wow. No wonder Christians are so fucked up. If God is infinitely holy, and the smallest sin therefore constitutes an infinite offence which justifies eternal punishment, then Christians are going to be on eggshells all their lives.
But Hitler didn't kill God.
If I steal something, I'm not stealing from God.
God is not offended at all because He isn't even the victim. He's just some douchebag with a poorly-designed justice system.
So sin's 'worse depending on the person offended'.
That's not in 'The Bronze Age Shepherd's Guide to the Galaxy', it teaches that sin is sin is sin. How else would Jesus equate looking at a woman lustfully as being the same as actually committing adultery with her, for example?
Romans 3:23 (KJV)
"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."
You know what this means, Ethan? According to your very own holy book, one sin is all it takes for you to be cast into eternal hellfire. It doesn't matter whether you punched your brother or your mother, or whether you had an abortion or killed six million Jews. Your bible says these are the same, because any one of them can remove someone from heaven.
"Is there a difference in the crime of punching your brother vs. punching your mother?"
No. To be honest, the crime shouldn't be worse if it is targetted against someone of higher authority or stature, but rather if it is against someone who is powerless and defenseless, and capable of suffering. As such, since God is infinitely powerful, our sins should be infinitesmal to him. Therefore, we deserve no punishment.
Nice try, though.
I will copy this over from my remarks on another thread. I think it raises an important point that hasn't been made yet - the possibility that God's punishment is proportionate to the crime, and that there are different levels of punishment for different types of sin:
Regarding God's 'fairness,' I am beginning to think that hell may include different levels and types of punishment, much like the modern prison system. I see evidence for this in the Bible (the servant with less knowledge being beaten with fewer stripes, and the servant with more knowledge being beaten more severely for his refusal to obey). For instance, a gluttonous person might be deprived of food but tormented by an insatiable apetite. Children who die in their sins may simply be locked away in isolation, without being physically tormented. Drunks might be thirsty throughout eternity. One person might simply be beaten for their disobedience, while another is left to burn in unimaginable pain because their sins were much greater, and so forth. That kind of makes sense to me, and like I said, there is some biblical support for that idea. I'm not advocating some crazy Dante's Inferno kind of deal, and don't get me wrong; your best day in hell will be much much worse than anything you could even imagine. But I don't think that Hitler and Gandhi will necessarily receive the same level of punishment for their sins.
HA HA - more like the religious gurus cooked up an increasingly worse afterlife for those that refused to kiss their asses.
But hey, if you offend the great Kiruki, when you die you will be dragged slowly through lava while gasoline is poured on you. If you do what I say, the great Kiruki will be pleased (Kiruki told me so) and when you die you'll be given you own planet with 1 billion servants (and internet access).
You want supernatural internet and servants don't you? No? Well, if off to the lava/gasoline for you - eternally.
Is there a difference in the crime of punching your brother vs. punching your mother?
Yes, because my brother probably deserved it.
More seriously, though, let's look at this and see where it goes. My brother's 6'2" and built . My mother, while in damn good shape for someone who's about to turn 60, is still a) much smaller and b) much more "breakable." So yeah, I'd say it's a more serious offense to punch my mother than my brother -- but look what happens when we apply this logic to the theological bit. "Punching" (or otherwise transgressing against) an omnipotent being is an action against a being infinitely capable of withstanding the assault; and so such an offense, when perpetrated by a mere human, is practically meaningless . So in the hierarchy of offense:
Punching a little kid is a terrible thing to do. Offending an omnipotent being is hilarious in its triviality.
@ MessianicServant
That's still Dante-esque, whether you want to admit it or not. In any case, you're also still saying that God assigns infinite punishments for finite crimes. The punishments themselves may very well differ depending on the nature and severity of the crimes, but they're all still infinite.
Either you take the punishment or let Him, your choice?
Oh, so God's going to burn in hell for eternity instead?
So why should we listen to you? Aren't human interpretations fallible and subject to interpretation by fallible people who do not possess all information?
"just remember you’re not God"
Yeah, so why can't YOU do that? You keep telling is what he is, what he wants, what offends him, what he's provided...
Just remember you're not god...
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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