John81 #fundie

John81 #fundie forums.kjbchurch.com

Someone in the pro-life movement put together a great chart showing how many great men of God were born to women who died in, or shortly after, childbirth.

If anyone has a link to this information, please post it here.

Why would it be considered right to kill the baby so the mother might live? Why wouldn't it be right to allow the baby to be born and do all that is possible to ensure they both live?

We should also remember that for a born again Christian, death is nothing to fear. What a joy for a woman to give birth to the next Spurgeon on the same day she joins Christ in heaven!

57 comments

old comment by Riin-thrall

Aha, it's a variation on the old Beethoven argument.

This "person in the pro-life movement" could vitiate his own argument just by also tallying the number of violent killers, thieves, rapists and dictators (etc) who were born to women who died bearing them; the child could be Beethoven, or it could be Genghis Khan. Before a foetus is aware, there is absolutely nothing determining what the child "could be" and there is no justification for letting the mother die simply because you have a hunch that her foetus might grow into a good person. It's not a person yet, and as it is not aware, it's not even a being at all. It's a cluster of cells.

Besides, if we're dealing with "could haves", couldn't the mothers who died in the examples you state have become even greater "women of God", had they survived? What's to say otherwise?

old comment by CT

Why would it be considered right to kill the baby so the mother might live? Why wouldn't it be right to allow the baby to be born and do all that is possible to ensure they both live?

Oh, I dunno... what about the Husband who'd like the mother to live so he can live with her for another 40+ years and possibly have more kids with her? I'm bloody sure he'd pick the mother over the baby for who gets priority.
Or what about the kids who'd rather have their mother around and a happy family, rather than a new kid, no mother and a mourning father to seriously ruin their lives?
What about the mother's sisters, brothers, parents who'd likely prefer to not risk her life just so they could chance having a niece, nephew, grandchild...?

Anyone would think you don't give a fuck about anyone other than the fucking foetus...

Oh, and if you want to use the "don't abort because they could come up with something of great importance in the future" argument, then consider the flip side... always abort because they could turn out to be the next murdering dictator.

old comment by Antichrist

This from a 25 year old male named John.

Check your bible, it has nothing against abortion.

Exodus 21:22-23
If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life.
Translation - if you cause a woman to miscarry it's up to the husband to decide what punishment you deserve, so if he didn't want the kid, no harm done.

The Bible places no value on fetuses or infants less than one month old.
Leviticus 27:6

God sometimes approves of killing fetuses.
Numbers 31:15-17
Hosea 9:14
Hosea 9:16
Hosea 13:16

God sometimes kills newborn babies to punish their parents.
2 Samuel 12:14

God sometimes causes abortions by cursing unfaithful wives.
Numbers 5:21-21, 27-28

God's law sometimes requires the execution (by burning to death) of pregnant women.
Genesis 38:24

The above is from Skeptics Annotated Bible

old comment by

Haven't you considered that the risk for the mother is DURING PREGNANCY, before it can get to term, so that, if she dies, the baby will surely die?. The women who die during childbirth or shortly after that do it for reasons totally unrelated to pregnancy itself. That is the reason why they, like my mother, preferred not to have any other children.
And the other reasons are totally ridiculous. How are those "geniuses" going to grow to be geniuses if they're not taken care of by their parents, specially by the mother?. And if the mother is not a Christian?, why is her life so unimportant?. And the slippery slope, why are you so concerned about abortion, if death means nothing to you?

old comment by Happy Wife

If I knew my child was going to be the next Spurgeon , I'd be at the abortion clinic so fast that there would be flames at my feet like the road-runner cartoons.

BTW Hussein's mother tried to get an abortion. I believe she even tried some home-made concoctions that made her very ill. So they all don't turn out as great men.

Then there's the drug addicted babies, the babies left in garbage cans (they're only on the news if they're found white and alive), children who are unwanted and are given up to the state (don't bother mentioning adoptions. Most adoptive parents only want blue eyed, blonde haired babies without any issues), children with birth defects that the parents will not be able to deal with (again, they will become state wards in most cases), and then there's the children raised by a woman who really doesn't want it, or is incapable of taking care of the child. These children tend to grow up and either join gangs, or similar lifestyles.

Want to cut down on crime and poverty? Cut down on the number of unwanted children.

old comment by Falyne

Look, I'm adopted. According to the records, my birthmother was 18, and my birthfather was in his forties. According to my mom (who may be trying to paint a prettier picture of things), she was the babysitter for his 9 year old son, things got out of hand, and she "went to visit an aunt" with only her mother and the guy knowing (and, supposedly, him supporting her).

This wasn't a life-or-death situation. She chose not to abort me and to give me up for adoption. Yet whatever I accomplish in my life, I could not, would not be so fucking selfish as to DEMAND that that 18 year old girl give up 9 months of her life, her education, risk her life and well-being, undergo the permanent bodily changes of pregnancy, go through labor, give up her born child, in all likelihood suffer horribly every Mother's Day and my birthday for years, having to hide her burden from the family it was kept secret from....

All that, just for the potential, not reality, of my life. I wouldn't have known any different. And it would be better for her (potential) other kids if she didn't have me floating in the back of her head. Again, I'm not selfish enough to be glad she made this choice.

old comment by Grand Archblasphemer of York

Wow...birth is not and should not be a martyrdom. It is easy for you to speak from the comfort of your desk about sacrifice when you are not in any position similar to one that you suggest. It's considered right to "kill" the baby so the mother might live because there is no guarantee that the baby will actually live! But, when it comes down to it, the mother's rights will always trump the infants while the infant is within the mother's womb, because it is the issue of established life versus dependent life...established life has rights and can sustain itself for the most part, biologically dependent life does not and cannot, and thus is only alive due to being a part of the mother. As such, whatever can be done to assure the mother's survival is paramount, because, when it comes down to it, it takes more effort and time to make another mother than another child.

John81 #fundie forums.kjbchurch.com

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